home owners (stupidly) doing their own electrical work

[davidajelliott]

I have just finished another domestic electrical job where the owner has been periodically doing his own electrical work over the last X number of years and now the property is under contract and an "Electrical Inspection" by another electrician has revealed a multitude of sins that i have had to rectify, using almost ninja like skills. My question is how do i deal with home owners repeatedly having a "crack", I've tried :

* Telling them Insurance company's are tough when car insurance is involved , just imagine how ruthless they can be something like the value of a house is involved due to dodgy home wiring

* Giving examples of how clients family members have been injured and have actually died by doing their own wiring.

* Explaining just because your house may have a (RCD) Safety Switch in the switch board ( say on power circuits ) doesn't mean you can't be seriously hurt

* Explaining that just because it works , it doesn't mean it complies or is safe

I myself spent 10 days in a burns ward after an electrical accident , there is a reason why it's a licensed trade.

People it is simply not worth the risk to save a few dollars.:no:

[Oldsaltoz]

+1

[Black Cat]

not something i would risk, but surprising how many otherwise intelligent people will do so. My own father used to regularly find himself on the other side of the room after 'having a go' at some wiring to save a few bucks. People are just naturally cheap I suspect. Though my old home handyman books give pretty good instructions if I felt so inclined (though the colour coding has changed), and you can still buy those replacement plugs, so many would take that as an indication it was all ok if you were game for it ...

[Bros]

I believe there are two types of people.

Type 1 is terrified and won't touch anything

Type 2 who think they know everything and think electrical work is overrated and try it anyhow, notice some of the posts here.

[stevoh741]

I dont at all advocate DIY electrical but understand why people have a go when it cost $80 just to get a sparky to the doorstep followed by the $80+ an hr once they get there. Also the high hrly rate dosent even gaurentee a decent tradie. Last one I hired screwed half the job and I had to get another out to fix his mistakes. As a carpenter I'm pushing to get $40 an hr and heaven forbit if I charge a cent just to arrive at the job. I agree its a high risk job but its still a trade and sparkies aren't doctors. This is by no means a shot at sparkies but just putting it out there as to why people may have a go.

As for me, I've seen others get themselves into enough trouble to want to touch it myself. :D

[M.V. Electrical]

Hi Steve, apart from the danger involved in my trade there are a few other factors that should be taken into consideration when discussing an Electricians hourly rate;
- trade course studies are considerably more difficult than other trades (IMO)
- supply and demand of Electricians
- cost involved in trade specific instruments and tools (debatable I'm sure)
- not only are there significant risks to the Electrician but there is also considerable pressure to ensure extreme levels of workmanship in order to protect the lives of homeowners.
- ever had an invoice from a plumber? :)

Thanks,

Glenn
LICENSED & LOCAL BLUE MOUNTAINS ELECTRICIAN - YOUR LOCAL BLUE MOUNTAINS ELECTRICIAN (http://www.mountainvillageelectrical.com.au)

[plum]

M.V. Electrical, what do mean by your last comment re. plumbers invoicing?
Very much like a smart @@@@ comment.

[watson]

Hi Steve, apart from the danger involved in my trade there are a few other factors that should be taken into consideration when discussing an Electricians hourly rate;
- trade course studies are considerably more difficult than other trades (IMO) Glad you said IMO. Have a look at some posts by Danny just about drain pipes
- supply and demand of Electricians No excuse for the exorbitant rates & call out charges IMO
- cost involved in trade specific instruments and tools (debatable I'm sure) I'd debate that as against a chippies tool bag
- not only are there significant risks to the Electrician but there is also considerable pressure to ensure extreme levels of workmanship in order to protect the lives of homeowners.
Sounds like an ad to me. If the sparky is doing his job to code, there are no reasons for "extreme levels of workmanship"
- ever had an invoice from a plumber? :) I reckon plum answered this one

Thanks,

Glenn
LICENSED & LOCAL BLUE MOUNTAINS ELECTRICIAN - YOUR LOCAL BLUE MOUNTAINS ELECTRICIAN (http://www.mountainvillageelectrical.com.au)

G'day Glenn,
I usually just watch without interfering..........but there are a couple of points that need answering here. (IN RED ABOVE)

[Bros]

I dont at all advocate DIY electrical but understand why people have a go when it cost $80 just to get a sparky to the doorstep followed by the $80+ an hr once they get there. Also the high hrly rate dosent even gaurentee a decent tradie. Last one I hired screwed half the job and I had to get another out to fix his mistakes.

I believe the electrical standards in Queensland have slipped since the introduction of self regulation but this is in workmanship rather than safety. When you had some one come to inspect the job you made sure it was correct and it looked good.
I just did a job for my daughter and it involved a metering change and I had to submit a Form A Sec 56.3 which required an inspection and I made sure it was all looking good cables tied up and switchboard marked properly.

[Bros]

supply and demand of Electricians No excuse for the exorbitant rates & call out charges IMO

Watson I don't normally disagree with your posts but it is hard to define "exorbitant". Where I live electricians if they can get them are getting paid $1 per minute and in mining towns it would be double this and this must be passed on to the consumer. The prices charged would seem exorbitant to those people who live in the capital cities but in the regional areas it is the way it is. Thankfully none of this applies to me but I get hit with the cost of rates, car servicing etc.

[M.V. Electrical]

Watson, as explained to plum via PM, the plumber crack (no pun intended) was a joke, a well worn one round these parts, hence my smiley face.
Ditto Bros' reply re. exorbitant rates, though I best not comment further lest it be construed to be an ad, in fact, feel free to remove any reference to my company in my previous postings on this forum, as it appears I cannot.
Let me re-phrase my 'extreme attention to workmanship' to 'extreme attention to code'.

Thanks.

[watson]

Nah....your link to your business is cool. Part of the deal with being a tradie member.
My reference to "sounds like an ad" wasn't referring to your signature link, just the "extreme attention to workmanship" bit. EDIT...Added bit. Sounds a bit extreme for just doing the job.

Thought it would stir you all up:hahaha:

[Bros]

Thought it would stir you all up:hahaha:

You win I'm going to bed, need my beauty sleep.

[manofaus]

trade course studies are considerably more difficult than other trades (IMO)

:o

[M.V. Electrical]

:o
Fair call manofaus, considering I haven't studied any of the other courses.

[Master Splinter]

The solution?

Point them towards some good learning resources - start with the info in the links in my sig, which are specifically designed by the New Zealand electrical regulator as references for DIY electrical work in New Zealand, where DIY electrical work is allowed (you know, like it is in just about every other country except Australia).

As we share AS/NZS3000, the NZ guide also suits Australia.

It seems that the NZ regulator is quite happy to condense the electrical skills required for basic residential work into 40-odd pages.

Then perhaps suggest Electrical Wiring Practice, Volume 1 and 2 by Keith Pethebridge and Ian Neeson if they would like to know more. And they can do a quick torrent search for 'aus electrical' to get extra info.

If they are going to do electrical work anyway, they might as well learn to do it properly - and it avoids them coming across gems like this on teh intarwebz:

88232

[Black Cat]

Reads a bit like my old DIY manual from the 1950s. Have to admit once the splash backs are fitted in the kitchen I will be re-wiring the power points (having first taken photos to record which bit was attached to what before I unplug them).

I think it is the 'devil in the detail' that causes problems for home-owners. After all, it would not have occurred to me that my metal splash backs might be a problem with the wiring, though logic (when it is pointed out) would have alerted me. DIYers frequently fail to look past the present issue to the 'down the track' implications of what they do. Hence the frequently heard - 'what? was that a structural element I just pulled out??:doh:'

[chalkyt]

Yes, Dave... We all have a bag full of such war stories (figure 8 to provide a light under the house, etc). I can understand people wanting to change a light fitting or switch themselves but you only have to look through this forum to find lots of "Oh dear, I have four wire and only three holes" questions.

I believe that Plumbers and the like can get a "limited connect and disconnect" license. Maybe one answer is for a similar approach to simple domestic work. Go to a brief course, get a ticket and know what you can and can't do...a bit like an Owner Builders License. In the meanwhile we just have to "never assume".

[watson]

As I said to Glenn via PM.....the forum has changed a lot from where every electrical question got answered with "Don't Do It!!" "Get an electrician" to a more lenient approach of "get your electrician to do X.....because X is required by ...etc.
I think Chalky's idea has a heap of merit if only by teaching the limitations of what can be done and why........and why electricians are required for certain installations.
The key is in the "why" IMHO, and I'd like our forum to keep heading that way if possible.
I could list a lot of threads where the OP has been found to not have a smidgin of a clue......and gets the "Get an Electrician" and I'm really happy with that.
On the other hand, I'm also happy with members wanting to know the "why" of switch protocol or cable sizes or hundreds of other intelligent questions, and I feel they should get the info requested, always with the mention of "your sparky" at least until the law is changed to a more sensible approach.

Now I'm off my high horse :hahaha:

[Bros]

On the other hand, I'm also happy with members wanting to know the "why" of switch protocol or cable sizes or hundreds of other intelligent questions, and I feel they should get the info requested, always with the mention of "your sparky" at least until the law is changed to a more sensible approach.
Now I'm off my high horse :hahaha:
Watson the "why" is not always possible and i could name many instances where most of not all electricians don't know why a certain rule is there as these rules have developed over a long period of time resulting from incidents that have occurred and potential incidents. There are many things in the rules that are not there and possibly should.

Another issue not related to the AS which comes up many times here is why Australia doesn't allow any DIY for electrical work. I haven't a clue as why this is so but it just is like a lot of other rules we have to obey in everyday life.

I hope you got off that horse OK as you said it was pretty high.:laughing1:

[manofaus]

I did do a disconnect/reconnect ticket 12 years ago
I am lucky in that by brother in law is an electrician. I did most of the rewire on my house, and I must admit i suffer from the 'if he can I can' but I know my limitations, and discuss what I am doing with him.... like 400mm and a stud between a GPO and ethernet connection (thats what he liked to do), 9 GPO's per circuit (in case someone needs that extra GPO), stove isolation switch in kitchen, 450mm between a tap and gpo, two gpo's on seperate circuits in kitchen, etc.... All of which I wouldn't have even thought of if I didn't ask. i guess these are the things no one unless they are a sparky would know and thats why its recommended that only a sparky does work on electrical. I don't know the rules but I know they exist and ask. (note what I mention may or may not be a rule but he said thats what I need to do). I did do a disconnect/reconnect ticket 12 years ago but i ain't a sparky.

[Pulse]

like 400mm and a stud between a GPO and ethernet connection (thats what he liked to do), 9 GPO's per circuit (in case someone needs that extra GPO), stove isolation switch in kitchen, 450mm between a tap and gpo, two gpo's on seperate circuits in kitchen,

yeah, good point, some of these are in AS3000, some of these are just recommendations or considered good practice. I think if AS3000 was more available or written in plain english it would help. The main issue is that people don't want to pay for something that is not good value. A $8 GPO to replace a broken one would cost over $150 to get a sparky to install, not hard to see why people DIY.

cheers
pulse

[iconnect]

The main issue is that people don't want to pay for something that is not good value. A $8 GPO to replace a broken one would cost over $150 to get a sparky to install, not hard to see why people DIY.Without being rude can I ask at what price do you think would be good value for the job you have described above?

[Pulse]

Hi Darryn,
I run a business too, and I can see that to make money as a sparky you probably need to charge more than $150, but the consumer sees the $8 price tag and 30 minutes work and understandably they are tempted to DIY. It is simply the difference between the cost to provide the service and the apparent value of the service to the consumer. Just different points of view, thats all.

Cheers
Pulse

[manofaus]

good value would be if an eleco could charge for the half hour it takes. But we are realists and know that in doing that he may forfeit 4 hrs work somewhere else, or it may take him an hour to get there and back. I guess if it was like you called out a mechanic to change wiper blades.

Sort of what its like fitting a 80 dollar solenoid to a 600t digger. $750!! hehe

[chalkyt]

This discussion always pushes my buttons (no, not another pun, just the way it is). I am mostly retired these days but still do jobs when requested mainly because electricians are generally hard to get and often not all that interested in small jobs where the customer has a fit being charged $100+ for half an hour's work. BUT... you are paying for "hmm! old VIR cable, move it and the insulation will crumble, potential fire risk, better check it all out" rather than "red to red, black to black, gee it works and I did it all myself... what is that crackle and smell?"

I can't recall being asked many questions from someone who had a bit of an idea what they were doing, only from people who have a bunch of wires and aren't too sure where they came from. It seems to me that if people have a basic understanding of what is going on, they can figure it out. Unfortunately when the electrician strikes the DIY situation that technically works but is somewhat dangerous the customer gets stroppy about being charged to fix something that ain't broke.

I am generally happy to answer questions if someone seems to have a clue, but it is easy to give enough information to make someone dangerous. For example a few weeks ago there was a question about four wires (active, neutral, switch and another) it was 99% obvious that the "another" was the active feed to the next lights in the chain, BUT not being there you can't be sure and if the person asking the question didn't know enough to figure it out then "CALL AN ELECTRICIAN".

Nice view from up here on Watson's high horse.

[stevoh741]

cost involved in trade specific instruments and tools (debatable I'm sure)

Yeah your probably right M.V., I'll just take my small and cheap carpenters toolkit - consisting of 4 battery drills, 2 impact drivers, 2 reciprocating saws, 3 circular saws, portable table saw, 2 hammer drills, electric planer, belt sander, 2 random orbital sanders, 6" grinder, 9" grinder, battery grinder, 2 routers, 2 trimmers, high torque power drill, 2 drop saws, concrete mixer, 3 ladders, extension ladder, 1000's of $$$ of hand tools including hammers, ratchits, spanners, screwdrivers etc, about 200 drill bits, 7 string lines, job specific trailer, compressor, 4 tool belts, and a chalk line to name a few of the top of my head - and sit in the corner and be quiet.

I guess a multi meter and screwdriver set would break the bank, lucky you get a big enough hourly rate to cover it.

Just having a dig, lucky you said it was debatable :D

[Bros]

For example a few weeks ago there was a question about four wires (active, neutral, switch and another) it was 99% obvious that the "another" was the active feed to the next lights in the chain, BUT not being there you can't be sure and if the person asking the question didn't know enough to figure it out then "CALL AN ELECTRICIAN".

We never did get those photo's.

[Bros]

I can't recall being asked many questions from someone who had a bit of an idea what they were doing, only from people who have a bunch of wires and aren't too sure where they came from. It seems to me that if people have a basic understanding of what is going on, they can figure it out.

On this forum I have decided not to give the info red to red black to black etc but if someone wants to know the size of cable to do this or that or where cable it to be run underground etc I will happily give it as it is all in AS3000. Contrary to some posts here it is easy to read and it is not restricted so I don't have a problem giving that information.

[Smurf]

II agree its a high risk job but its still a trade and sparkies aren't doctors. This is by no means a shot at sparkies but just putting it out there as to why people may have a go.
True for new installations but where fault finding of existing installations is concerned, well that's when it gets difficult.

If doctors only delivered healthy babies, if sparkies only installed new wiring and if pilots only flew perfectly functioning aircraft in good weather then there would be no real need for anything more than minimal training. But when something goes wrong then that's when proper knowledge suddenly becomes important.

If an engine blows or the landing gear won't come down then that's when you forget how much you paid for the flight and are more worried about the abilities of the Captain as he (or she) attempts to put the plane on the ground without killing or injuring anyone. THAT is when skills and knowledge count - when things go wrong. Likewise when odd things start happening electrically, that's when you find out whether or not your electrician is really any good or not. At least you do assuming you want it fixed in a hurry.

It's the same in every industry. I could probably drive a train with a few hours worth of training just as long as I don't need to stop it in a hurry or deal with any kind of emergency. That's when proper training becomes important and it's why we don't have a half day course in train driving.

[M.V. Electrical]

Yeah your probably right M.V., I'll just take my small and cheap carpenters toolkit - consisting of 4 battery drills, 2 impact drivers, 2 reciprocating saws, 3 circular saws, portable table saw, 2 hammer drills, electric planer, belt sander, 2 random orbital sanders, 6" grinder, 9" grinder, battery grinder, 2 routers, 2 trimmers, high torque power drill, 2 drop saws, concrete mixer, 3 ladders, extension ladder, 1000's of $$$ of hand tools including hammers, ratchits, spanners, screwdrivers etc, about 200 drill bits, 7 string lines, job specific trailer, compressor, 4 tool belts, and a chalk line to name a few of the top of my head - and sit in the corner and be quiet.

I guess a multi meter and screwdriver set would break the bank, lucky you get a big enough hourly rate to cover it.

Just having a dig, lucky you said it was debatable :D

I see where your coming from Steve, though it may not be the lay down misere you might think.......
Multimeter $700, IR Tester $1000, Loop Impedance Meter $1300, DT Spectrum Analyser $6000, PAT tester (print enabled) $5000, Toughbook (PLC/router interface) $3000, Scope $3000, Clamp Meter $350, RCD Tester, Earth Ground Tester (basic) $1700, Network test $600, Ridgid Seesnake $250....that's my meters covered (I think), also a couple of cordless drills, recipro saw, circ. saw, Hilti rotary, jig saw, grinder, fiberglass extension ladder & step ladders.....oh yeah, my pliers and screwdrivers. :U

[Bros]

IR Tester $1000,

What happened to the megger?

[manofaus]

wow just to wire in a power point you need alot of tools!!

being a fitter I could out do you with the one tool.. hytorc.... 40k.. but my boss owns that.

lets start a thread, my toolbox is bigger then yours.

[stevoh741]

I see where your coming from Steve, though it may not be the lay down misere you might think.......
Multimeter $700, IR Tester $1000, Loop Impedance Meter $1300, DT Spectrum Analyser $6000, PAT tester (print enabled) $5000, Toughbook (PLC/router interface) $3000, Scope $3000, Clamp Meter $350, RCD Tester, Earth Ground Tester (basic) $1700, Network test $600, Ridgid Seesnake $250....that's my meters covered (I think), also a couple of cordless drills, recipro saw, circ. saw, Hilti rotary, jig saw, grinder, fiberglass extension ladder & step ladders.....oh yeah, my pliers and screwdrivers. :U



like I said just having a friendly dig. No harm intended. Couple of mates are spakies, I know whats involved :)

[M.V. Electrical]

What happened to the megger?
Yeah I know......I had a TAFE teacher (waaay back) who would bang on & on & on that megger was a brand name and was unacceptable to use in the trade.....I guess it stuck with me but you're right, megger now seems to be the most common term used.

[M.V. Electrical]

wow just to wire in a power point you need alot of tools!!

being a fitter I could out do you with the one tool.. hytorc.... 40k.. but my boss owns that.

lets start a thread, my toolbox is bigger then yours.
You win this pissing contest. :U

[Bros]

Yeah I know......I had a TAFE teacher (waaay back) who would bang on & on & on that megger was a brand name and was unacceptable to use in the trade.....I guess it stuck with me but you're right, megger now seems to be the most common term used.
What's the world coming to, to have the trade taken over by political correctness. Next thing BP connectors will be called cable connectors single screw/double screw.
I went in to Auslec a couple of months ago for a line clamp and they didn't know what I was talking about so I searched the shelves and found one and they said oh you wanted a line tap, no they used to be called a line clamp see it clamps the wire.:rolleyes:

[M.V. Electrical]

What's the world coming to, to have the trade taken over by political correctness. Next thing BP connectors will be called cable connectors single screw/double screw.
I went in to Auslec a couple of months ago for a line clamp and they didn't know what I was talking about so I searched the shelves and found one and they said oh you wanted a line tap, no they used to be called a line clamp see it clamps the wire.:rolleyes:
Sounds like you must have asked the cleaner.

Yeah, BPs....I'm racking my brain as to what he called them.......a missed opportunity I think, as I don't know anyone who calls them anything else.

[chalkyt]

Ah yes, the good old days... we went through this a while back. BP (Blue Point brand), BB (Bakelite & Brass), old habits die hard. Don't know what my present jar full is called, must have a look so I can call them the right thing.

[The Roofer]

This for your info only - "On how to get banned"

Offer advice to novices (which this forum is about) and one complaint - and you're history see
http://www.renovateforum.com/f194/interesting-plumbing-experience-104028/#post878123

[The Roofer]

Hi Watson - you're looking at this now - so answer the original question about knowledge?

[commodorenut]

You seem to have an agenda against the owners/admin of this forum, and now you're dragging up old posts to feed on?

Why can't you use the forum's PM system to make your complaint directly to admin, and leave the threads alone?

[watson]

I'll leave this up, as you're incorrect again.

[watson]

Hi Watson - you're looking at this now - so answer the original question about knowledge?



Read the other 7261 posts.

[Gaza]

Read the other 7261 posts.

7262 now

[Bros]

Hey Roofer do you have some sort of electrical problem, blown fuse, hot joint, bad connection tell us about it.

[The Roofer]

Nah! Just have overlapping continual sheets!