Non-Standard framing

[Moondog55]

A while ago there was a discussion of alternative framing methods.

How difficult is it to have alternative methods approved; even if they are stronger and more efficient than the design guidelines in the :"Book":
We may be putting a new box on the back of the existing house and were wondering whether or not to try and use deeper studs and ply webs as they do in the UK and the USA, mainly to allow us to use R35 batts in the walls

[Master Splinter]

As long as there is an engineer's signoff on the stuff that's not in the book, you shouldn't have more than the usual range of tribulations from council. Check the Australian plywood bracing association site, there are a couple of downloads there on building with ply.

[Gaza]

no reason you can not do a double stud wall this is in the AS, just build a new wall inside the room out of 70x35 as its not a load bearing wall, should be cheaper than using 140x45mm anyway.

are you sure 140x45mm is not in AS.

anything can be used aslong as its proved to be equal or better than AS,

you can not just start making your walls out of 140x45 with it being 50mm bigger on the outside as it will change the size of the house and may cause troubles will set backs.

why the need to over insulate, we dont go to -25degC like in the USA.

ply on outside is great idea but the flashing details around windows is total diffenrt aswell as the sarking and cladding set ups, there is a lot of thinking that needs to go into it so that it all works.

[intertd6]

There is no reason why you cant use studs, plates & noggings that size, the standard is the minimum you can use, no need for any engineers cert' if you just use the mgp12 tables for 90 X 45, it will just cost you more for labour, materials & openings.
regards inter

[Moondog55]

I have not been able to find any suppliers of the panels here, in the US and the UK they come ready made.
The insulation standards are the minimum, and keeping the heat out and the cool in is our priority.
this is going to be a biggish room and the bigger the room the greater the amount of insulation needed to keep heating and cooling costs down, R1.5 in the walls is simply not enough.
Gaza it will be a load bearing wall, from looking at prices a double 70*45 is higher cost than a single 140*45

[Moondog55]

There is no reason why you cant use studs, plates & noggings that size, the standard is the minimum you can use, no need for any engineers cert' if you just use the mgp12 tables for 90 X 45, it will just cost you more for labour, materials & openings.
regards inter

I know but overseas they use a much wider stud spacing (900mm) with 140*45, so it works out cheaper, but probably not if we have to pay for an engineer.
( by the way there is no "G" in noggins

[Bedford]

( by the way there is no "G" in noggins

Correct, but intertd6 was referring to these.89021

[Moondog55]

Some of my research includes these links

http://www.branz.co.nz/cms_show_download.php?id=e4d4f6c2df8e24d228728c398 c3a43b006dbf51b

Options for wall insulation (http://www.level.org.nz/passive-design/insulation/options-for-wall-insulation/)

[Moondog55]

Correct, but intertd6 was referring to these.http://www.renovateforum.com/attachments/f76/89021-non-standard-framing-studwallterms.png
So was I No "G" in noggins, i do believe the kiwis call them something else "DWANGS"

[Gaza]

just get a frame & truss plant to make up frames they can put into there computer and spit out the certf, i would not be doing 900mm centers as you will need to batten out to take plaster board

[Moondog55]

A noggin (35*70) on edge would be sufficient to take the plaster.

[jiggy]

Why not use an insulated plasterboard plus your batts on a standard stud wall.?

[Gaza]

lets do some numbers here

for a 6mtx4mt room thats 20lm of walls.
if studs at 600mm centers then you have 32 studs
studs at 900mm centers you have 22 studs

extra 10 studs @ 2.7 long @ $4.25plm = $114.75

if at 900 centers then need 70x35 @2.7 x 22 @ $1.75plm = $103.95 plus labour to out in.

it will cost more than using studs at 600mm, while you could run the 70x35 left to right you will need say 3 rows to give fixing points for plasterboard and then skirting. so not idea.

you will also need to use 17mm ply on outside not 7mm as it will not span 900mm with out serious deflection.

unless you are building a few hundread houeses then not worth cost of re-engineering,

another issue is that if using tiled roof & trusses you might have to do a double toplate if studs are at 900mm centers,

just build 90x45mm wall then use 28mm furlin channel onside to give the wall thickness you need, this stuff is only a buck a meter.

[intertd6]

Now I'm scratching my noggin?
regards inter

[Moondog55]

, while you could run the 70x35 left to right you will need say 3 rows to give fixing points for plasterboard and then skirting. so not idea.


Why, we usually use the top plate and bottom plate for fixing don't we??

you will also need to use 17mm ply on outside not 7mm as it will not span 900mm with out serious deflection.

OK I thought it was 10 or 12mm, but that would be the truss makers decision

unless you are building a few hundread houeses then not worth cost of re-engineering,

another issue is that if using tiled roof & trusses you might have to do a double toplate if studs are at 900mm centers,

OK point taken but it will be a steel roof, much lighter and at 900 centres according to the tables

just build 90x45mm wall then use 28mm furlin channel onside to give the wall thickness you need, this stuff is only a buck a meter.


I really appreciate you running the numbers for me, but this was looking at alternatives and some-one has to start the ball rolling on better systems, ones that use less timber and are stronger and better insulated.
We would not be framing on site, the whole deal with these in the USA is to have them factory made, delivered and installed as quickly as possible, can be done in a couple of hours after unloading. you design windows and doors inside these standard sized panels.

90*45 with battens over the brace ply is how the rest of the house is being re-done, it is labour intensive. Factory labour is almost always cheaper than trades-mans wages on-site

[Moondog55]

Now I'm scratching my noggin?
regards inter
Doncha just love the English language?? LOL

[Moondog55]

An alternative just suggested ( by a truss company I called yesterday) is either 120*35/45 or 140*35/45 top and bottom plates with staggered 70*35 studs at nominal 600 centres

[SilentButDeadly]

An alternative just suggested ( by a truss company I called yesterday) is either 120*35/45 or 140*35/45 top and bottom plates with staggered 70*35 studs at nominal 600 centres

If they sign it off then that'd be quite cool....or warm.....and correct. I'd rock that.

[andy the pm]

This is what you want...

Sips Industries Ltd Pty - Structural Insulated Panels, sips technology with OSB, OSB3 from Egger and EPS, Perth Australian made green smart energy efficient panels. Chalk Land Life Living. (http://sipsindustries.com.au/overview.php)

[Moondog55]

That's the system, Andy, n of ever thoughtsearching with SIPS as a subject
Shipping from Perth would cost too much i think but I will contact them and get an idea.

[andy the pm]

I'm pretty sure there are a couple of other companies around a bit closer, they seem to be the most established tho

[Bloss]

now i'm scratching my noggin?
Regards inter


:d

[intertd6]

The 140 or 120 wall with staggered studs is a party wall design to reduce sound transmission, you will have less thickness of insulation than a 90mm wall in places, similar goes with horizontal battens on a stud wall to get your 140 thickness.
regards inter

[r3nov8or]

Regardless of which word/meaning you mean, noggin/g I count at least two Gs ...

[Moondog55]

Regardless of which word/meaning you mean, noggin/g I count at least two Gs ...

True ( hangs head in shame ) just not supposed to be at the end of the word, my cousin teaches this stuff and he was always correcting my terminology when he was here helping us do some framing.

[Moondog55]

The 140 or 120 wall with staggered studs is a party wall design to reduce sound transmission, you will have less thickness of insulation than a 90mm wall in places, similar goes with horizontal battens on a stud wall to get your 140 thickness.
regards inter\

This is not true, because wood has a much lower R value than even the worst insulation, and while the staggered stud is more usually used for sound proofing properties it does allow more thermal insulation to be stuffed inside the cavity, you only need to use the weaving technique when using acoustic blanket

[Black Cat]

Perhaps Nogging is the term for inserting noggins? Hence the illustration caption ...

[intertd6]

moondog you can really catch your cousin out if you want to & reap the rewards of some lovely beers bet on his so called correct terminology. In Australia they are called nogging (singular) & noggings (plural) I could be wrong but this the terminology used in AS 1684 & all my trade textbook references.
I don't know the R value of timber but would be interested in finding it out.
inter

[DvdHntr]

If you want SIPS panels I am an engineer that has done the span tables for Austec/Eco Energy Homes and they have a good product.

[Moondog55]

Perhaps Nogging is the term for inserting noggins? Hence the illustration caption ...

I think BC has hit the nail on the head, my older books all say NOGGIN as does the OED

[andy the pm]

Inter is right, its Nogging (singular) in AS 1684, noggin is probably just lazy english...