Professional and experienced opinions required on this recent 'work'

[sl33py]

Hi all, I've recently had some work done on my apartment. I need some experienced and professional opinions on it.

Background: this is the ground floor of a 3 story apartment. I bought the ground floor because I knew I was getting wood floor put in due to allergies. The floor is 18mm engineered spotted gum from a supplier in Sydney (so not laminate and not solid, but the middle ground where the top half looks like real wood and the rest looks like ply/chipboard). It is 'single strip' (or whatever the technical name for it is for when the planks of wood are only one strip thick, not multiple). The trim is about 20mm from one straight edge to the other, and it ranges fairly widely in colour (not good).

The wood itself looks alright. It is the workmanship and techniques used which I have serious concerns about. These are photos of work claimed to be 'all but finished'. I asked what was left to do, and the installer said he only had to fix down two metal strips (between the main entrance and the kitchen) and upon my asking about the look of the filler, he said he would apply more filler to level the gaps out flush with the rest of the floor.

I asked up front for the wood to be slid in underneath the existing skirting, because I don't like trim, but he insisted that it was impossible and he had to use trim. I rang two other companies who (unluckily for me), one said he was correct, and the other said it has to be decided on a per a dwelling basis. So I thought 'he's professional, he must know what he's talking about and the calls mostly confirmed it'.

Any other questions or important information I've left out, just ask and I'll try to answer. All I'll say is that I'm not happy. Will leave any other comments to you guys. I'm meeting him tomorrow to discuss, so any feedback as soon as possible would be much appreciated. Thanks.

1
http://db.tt/pumrmhur
2
http://db.tt/7ojBEOiT
3
http://db.tt/rKIq8bUf
4
http://db.tt/kmYtWT59
5
http://db.tt/uT5pniSN
6
http://db.tt/ybgAlLkC
7
http://db.tt/eRXcpBSt
8
http://db.tt/8Y7gfOi8
9
http://db.tt/HjCCqfcw
10
http://db.tt/RaaYb7st
11
http://db.tt/JKFPKexT
12
http://db.tt/IiicVf81
13
http://db.tt/iAhnRgfx
14
http://db.tt/a03HVctv

[johnc]

You can't usually slide anything under skirting, but you can remove the skirting, lay the floor and then reinstate the skirting. This will usually mean some patching and painting if walls and skirts afterwards.

He has used rather large trim and some of the cuts around the door ways are untidy and rougher than I would expect. I would not want that amount of filler as visually it looks like an amatuer has simply not paid enough attention to fit.

Was this bloke the cheapest quote? I have no suggestions you have undertaken to engage this person and you are not happy, you could discuss this further or get someone else in to suggest what can be done but whichever way you go it will probably cost. I think you have every right to expect a more professional look than the one you have ended up with.

[Micky013]

Agree with the above post. Pretty hard if not impossible to get the boards under skirting and achieve a nice finish.

In my opinion, that is a @@@@ job. Who ever did it didn't even try to get close to the door jambs. It is very possible and common practice when i lay floors to under-cut door jambs when ever i can. It improves the finish immensely (you always see that bit) - you can hide gaps against skirting with trim. Inevitably, sometimes its impossible to avoid that little triangle gap where the skirting ends and door frame begins but NEVER have i seen finishes as per your photos. My second gripe would be the choice of trim...it that scotia? Quarter round or glass beading would have looked much nicer.

I wouldn't accept that even if it was free - just remember you see your floor every day. If you cant get anywhere with the installer maybe a flooring inspector might help.

Good luck!! (honestly)

[gpkennedy]

If only there was some measuring device to help mark the wood so that it fitted better!

[sl33py]

He wasn't the cheapest. Got quotes for 5900, 6900 (him), 9000.

I didn't think it was possible for someone who did it for a living to produce this kind of result.

I've rung up two other businesses. Both say I should be able to get the wood under the original skirting board. One is coming out tomorrow morning to inspect/advise. Another on Monday arvo. The installer is coming out tomorrow arvo to discuss. I'm going to wait til Monday when I've met both other business reps and see what options they think are viable before deciding what to do. I basically don't trust the original installer to fix it himself, whatever his idea of 'fix' might be.

I neglected to mention the damage to the walls. :( In one area he has taken a gash out of the wall, and in another, it's very obvious that when hammering in the trim, it has forced the original skirting up and into the paint/plaster/whatever the main surface of the wall is (gyp rock??) and forced the surface of the wall up and out:

Gash (this is about 10cm from the top mark to the bottom, no idea how he managed to do it):
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11181535/IMAG0044.jpg

Excessive force (this is about 30cm across):
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11181535/IMAG0018.jpg

[stevoh741]

Amature day on the job there mate. I wouldn't be paying a cent until the damage and dodgy flooring is fixed to your satisfaction. Fair enough a small amount of bog near the corners of door openings (you dont want the timber tight - another question, did he use a flexible filler? otherwise it is likely to just crack out over time).

No excuses for not undercutting the door jambs. I'd sack anyone working for me if they left a job like that.

[Bloss]

Rubbish job - don't pay if you haven't and contact ACT Fair Trading ASAP - see here: Fair Trading | Office of Regulatory Services (http://www.ors.act.gov.au/community/fair_trading/) and here: Make a Complaint Against a Business or Trader | Office of Regulatory Services (http://www.ors.act.gov.au/community/fair_trading/make_a_complaint_against_a_business_or_trader)

[intertd6]

If only there was some measuring device to help mark the wood so that it fitted better!

There is, its called a trade apprenticeship.
regards inter

[Gaza]

WTF.

thats bad

no you can not get new floor under skirting but any idot knows take it off put back on that trim looks bad, did you approve the trim profile, the "C" strip used against the robe and door sills looks like crap its not even tight to ends,

the cut outs around the jambs well, should be about 3mm with neat silcone not 20mm plus not bits of other boards.

[ringtail]

Wow. Just..... wow.

[Ashore]

Was this bloke the cheapest quote?.
My thoughts as well when I saw your pics.

[dazza71]

Take 2- Keyboard issues
Points I would bring to his attention- If the gap existed under the skirting surely it was possible to lay the laminate closer as no expansion was required-hence- a small 10 by 10 quad or square dressed trim instead of 30mm scotia.
Why has scotia been back cut on some ends and square cut on others. Proper finishing carpenters strive to never show end grain.
Why he has not under cut door stop as this would saved considerable time compared to cutting around which HE DID not obviously have the skill to do.
Many contributing factors may be involved to produce this "shoddy" workmanship, You need to trust your instinct as too whether he is a chancer or having a very bad day......
Find out if PVA glue has been used in the joints. If not you may wish to call him back-explain your points and offer him the chance to rectify the wrongs. Unfortunately,I would strongly suggest you are present. If he accepts to repair his @@@@ job. The biggest insult you can ever give a PROPER tradesman is "Would YOU accept that in your house?" 99% will agree with you and get their tools out and you are then entitled to tell 1% that you have no intention of paying for that crap.
One job should always lead to two more, Thats a business
good luck

[Dusty]

My favourite is number 5.

So F'n close.......
Seriously, he's about 3/4's of Inch off being a good tradesman.:U

[gpkennedy]

There is, its called a trade apprenticeship.
regards inter

I generally use my thumb and a piece of string and a charcoal scrap to measure my cuts. Seems like this tradition continues to this day.

[shauck]

If only there was some measuring device to help mark the wood so that it fitted better!

91450

Perhaps not one exactly like this but similar idea.

[Bedford]

If only there was some measuring device to help mark the wood so that it fitted better!

One of these can help, Profile Gauges (http://www.fine-tools.com/G309631.htm)

[shauck]

One of these can help, Profile Gauges (http://www.fine-tools.com/G309631.htm)

Nice

[goldie1]

Oh dear Oh dear :C

[Gaza]

One of these can help, Profile Gauges (http://www.fine-tools.com/G309631.htm)

no offence but those things are rubbish, doing stock standard stuff sure if its some crazy skirting but its a door jamb. it goes something like this 19mm wide by 38mm deep then out 13mm back 20mm back in 13mm then 42mm thats with out even looking thats to suit 35mm door in non fire rated 100mm wall

[Bloss]

no offence but those things are rubbish, doing stock standard stuff sure if its some crazy skirting but its a door jamb. it goes something like this 19mm wide by 38mm deep then out 13mm back 20mm back in 13mm then 42mm thats with out even looking thats to suit 35mm door in non fire rated 100mm wall

In other words as interd said - someone who has training so knows what they are doing . . . :(

[Larry McCully]

That is extreeme poor quality work. There is no need for such large gaps around the jams and archatraves. It is not hard to be neat. If you need to leave a gap, then dont use putty, but a flexable joint sealer is more appropriate. He should have returned the scotia at any ends, correctly measured the alum and fitted it. Dont pay him at all. Get someone in who knows what they are doing to fix it. Why should you live with that. My golden rule is :To the millimeter" Use a steel ruler to measure at fine cut sections and not a tape measure. It can all be fixed at a cost. But if you do get it fixed, then discuss with the installer what you want and get him to explane to you his proceedures. And also, if there is enough room to slide under the old skirt, then it can be done. Its a bit of a trick, but not hard.It makes my blood boil when i see this kind of crap. We all make mistakes, but that is pure poor quality from an unexperienced person calling themselves a installer.

[Tarnie]

Definately dont pay. Is he a qualified tradesman?......licensed somehow?.......such as a builder, carpenter ect........or just someone put an advert somewhere?

Good luck,
Tarnie

[METRIX]

My first year carpenter could do a better job than this, I would not accept this quality from any of my guys, and would have them rip it out and redo properly.

Floating floors can be tricky sometimes to get right when working around existing door jambs etc, but if you know what your doing and take time you can achieve a good finish, where only a small of flexible filler may be required, this looks like a grand canyon of filler was used, and I don't think it is a flexible one, as floating floor move around the filler will crack.

Not sure what's going on with the scotia cuts these are totally inconsistent throughout the job, was there one or two guys who didn't know what they were doing, any exposed edges of the scotia should have been cut back on them selves and finished off so you don't see any end grains.

I would get them back to fix it, but I don't hold much luck for you as they probably don't know how to fix it, so a quick trip to the Dept or Fair trading will fix them up quick enough.

Tradespeople - NSW Fair Trading (http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Tradespeople.html)

Good

[Bloss]

Note that OP is from ACT - ACT Fair Trading link given above - they should not use the NSW link . . .

[sl33py]

So the job has been inspected by 2 other companies now who both say it's a bad job.

1) First of all, both have said that the floor boards should have been installed under skirting board and door jambs, and that the scotia wasn't necessary at all. And in just a few places, some beading/thinner scotia would have have been required where there was no skirting board (back of the kitchen bench area).
2) While the wood was deemed 'very good value for money', they said it came in odd lengths, and as a result, I have lots of planks of timber approximately 30-40cm in length all over the lounge and bedroom (ie both room in my one beddy apartment). Both installers said there should only be full length planks used instead, and that extremely short lengths like that shouldn't be in the middle of the floor.
3) There are several areas on the floor where multiple boards meet up next to each other, within the space of 10cm. I've been told that the standard is to make sure at least 20cm between adjacent joins because otherwise it looks bad. I don't know the technical words, so hopefully you guys know what I mean.
4) The trim (even though not needed) was done poorly
- It varies too widely in colour
- It wasn't cut and finished properly where it ends
- There are gaping great gaps between the scotia, the floorboards and the wall. In one spot, the gap is so large that the installer decided to try and put a small block of extra wood into the gap, which of course is only supported by the filler around it, and as such doesn't even sit flush with the rest of the floor.
- Where there has been metal trim used between wood/tiled areas, the metal isn't cut straight, nor to the correct size (always shorter than required to bridge the gap).
5) General damage caused:
- At one point where the scotia was hammered into the skirting board, it has forced the paint/finish of the wall up and out away from the wall itself.
- There is a sizeable dent in one of my walls where someone has bumped into it with significant force. This will required filling and repainting.
6) One inspector said: seeing as this is an apartment, the installer should have provided a certificate to the body corporate before doing ANY work, saying the floor will meet acoustic/noise standards and not bother anyone (I'm on the ground floor). He did not do this.

Unfortunately I've paid in full (I know that was stupid). From the sounds of it, this job should be completely redone from scratch. The installer has met me at the apartment and said he's never heard of installers undercutting the door jambs in an apartment, and 'could give it a go' if I wanted. I DON'T want that. It's quite clear from all input so far, that he is incapable of doing the work properly.

Do I contact Fair Trading or ATFA? Or do I contact the installer and say I'm taking external measures and give him the opportunity to refund me without any trouble? Even then, it'll cost me more than it should to fix, because of the damage he's done, and the nail holes etc that will need filling/painting/covering up.

And: Do I have to wait for proceedings with FT or ATFA to go through before I get it fixed? Hopefully they would be OK using photos and some sort of formal inspection report as evidence of the shoddy work? I could probably manage to afford getting it fixed (not redone), but if fixing it kills my chances of getting my money back... then what?

I've been waiting 18 months for this place to be built, first home, so I'm gutted by this. Thanks for all the helpful info/suggestions so far.

[Gaza]

regardless of being an undercut the jamb or not its still a bad way of cutting around them, you can get a lot neat than that.

if its a metal door frame that is fire rated then do not undercut but the only frame is the enrty door all other doors are not fire rated.

you are you required in theory to provide certf for sound but consider its the ground floor you have no issue at all to worry about so this is an invalid point,

i would not waste the time or money on AFTA just file aginst the guy in local court.

[Larry McCully]

The only time i would not attempt to under cut at jams, is if the jams are metal. Even then i have undercut them with a cutting blade on a angle grinder. But for most of the time i will do a neat 3-5mm or even a 1mm fit. It does not take much time, its just that some installers are lazy and thing that they can fool the client. How sad that is. I would take it to fair trading, But first you must give him the opportunity in fixing it. He cant do any worse. And if he still does not get it right, giive him another chance at least. Then if he is not prepared to, then issue a complaint to Fair trading. I know 2 chances are a bit strange, but at least you have offered as far as the department is concerned. The best thing to do is to work with him at this stage. His emotion is up just as much as yours, and he will be thinking that you may not proceed with anything. he may have no money to compensate, that does not matter, the court will order a balif sale and send the sherrif around to confiscate his belongings. Give him a deadline to fix it, possible 14 days. Every installer has made BOO BOOs one time or another, and we learn from them. But if he is ignoring any of your attempts to come to a solution, then he is in trouble. You dont have to let it go, and there are things that can be done. The ATFA wont and can not do anything except make a report, and that will cost you money. They dont have any force other that who is a member. But members of the ATFA will educate him and help him fix it through the advise and encouragement from the members.Thats if he is a member. I dont think that he is. The ATFA have a extreemly good education program and teaching system for members on all aspects of the timber flooring trade. They are the peak body in the industry. If he was a member , then he would have known what to do in the first place.

[Larry McCully]

Once you have filed your complaint with the fair trading, it will take between 7-14 days for a answer from them. They will act on your behalf and are very strong.

[sl33py]

Part of me was considering the report as back up my (fairly certain) judgement that he's incapable of completing the work as it should be. He's already told me as much in discussion: that he's never done it that way before, and that he can 'try' to fix up some of the parts where it looks bad. But that's just making it look better in the way it was done. He said he's not prepared to do it properly with the wood under the skirting board etc, which is what I want. I rang 2 other places before giving him the job, to confirm that he was right about having to use the scotia. Unluckily for me, one agreed with him, the other said it depends on the job. So I gave him the benefit of the doubt. If I'd have even one company say it could very easily be done as I wanted, I wouldn't have even considered giving this guy the job.

Considering the damage and the appauling job, I'm wondering do I really have to give him another chance? He's already demonstrated that he's happy to try and present far SUB par work as acceptable and finished. The fact he's used unmatched scotia and metal trim (both purchased before even seeing my apartment mind you!) demonstrates that he cared very little for how it was to end up looking, and I believe he probably buys the same gear for every single job he does, and like it's been mentioned, got away with it so far because people simply don't realise how it should look. Unluckily for him, I grew up in several older houses with nice wooden floors, so I didn't fall for it.

I REALLY don't want to let him set foot back in there. I already got the keys back off him when I explained why I was unhappy with the job and told him not to do any further work until I contacted him again. I don't trust his abilities at all.

[Larry McCully]

Then based on your feelings and intuition, contact the Dept of Fair Trading without hesitation and get the process rolling. You will have success. It can be taken to tribunal and at that point, you can file it at a court for recovery of costs. Thats where the sheriff comes into it. They will visit his home and confiscate any belongings up to the value of the agreed repair costs or replacement.

[Bloss]

Don't waste any more time contact ACT Office of Fair Trading ASAP - see here: Fair Trading | Office of Regulatory Services (http://www.ors.act.gov.au/community/fair_trading/) and here: Make a Complaint Against a Business or Trader | Office of Regulatory Services (http://www.ors.act.gov.au/community/fair_trading/make_a_complaint_against_a_business_or_trader)

[namtrak]

Some interesting reading in here. Should point out its not me!! I think the client may have actually rung me a little while ago and I suggested this forum with pics or ATFA. :)

[Larry McCully]

I know you personally bro, i and i know that not your work.
Some interesting reading in here. Should point out its not me!! I think the client may have actually rung me a little while ago and I suggested this forum with pics or ATFA. :)

[sl33py]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the helpful info!

I've got a couple of inspections so far. Yesterday I went around and took photos of every square inch, with a ruler next to everything for scale. But I'd like to be able to present (to whoever needs to see it) 4 or 5 professional inspection reports.

Would anyone here (in the ACT) be willing to come out and check it out? I'm Northside. I'll be making a few more calls today, just thought this forum could be a good avenue to find a couple of extra people who could come check it out!

The current installer has asked for the name, business and qualifications of those who have inspected the work so far, so you'd have to be OK with me giving that information to relevant parties. I'm not sure if he wants that info to ring them up to genuinely ask for advice, or whether he's just figuring out how solid my evidence/case is before deciding to put up a fight. In either case, I'm mostly after the report/evidence/professional opinion to help my cause - I don't mind if you don't want to talk to him at all.

If you're happy to help out, PM me with your number and I'll give you a call. Thanks!

[namtrak]

Tony Powell at Floors by Powell is your best bet