laying deck but dont want to screw it down

[coasta007]

Hi all,
I’m after some advice about laying my new deck. I have about 50m2 to lay and I want to use the 140mm x 25mm planks. I’ll probably end up using the 140mm x 19mm planks but I want to know if there is a system where I don’t have to pre drill and screw the boards down. I want to use a hardwood so every plank will need to be pre drilled.

The only product I’ve seen is the deckmax and nonaildecking system but not sure if there are any other securing systems out.

I’ve laid my pool deck (95m2) using 75mm stainless screws and I ended up using over 6500 screws.

I prefer to use another method to secure them but not sure whats out there at the moment.

Any help appreciated.

[coasta007]

Hi all,

I've been looking into different methods of fixing my new deck which i am yet to lay and im getting mixed thoughts on what to use.

I want to use 140mm wide Red Ironbark timber deck and if i get good feedback, im considering using the CAMO Hidden deck fastening system. i want get your opinion as a rep will call me back tomorrow in the next few days and i dont want to hear a whole lot of verbal crap from his mouth.

Im not sure of the characteristics of the timber for twisting and bending so i dont know if secret screwing it on the side is any good. It might cup or twist if the timber isn't screwed from the top.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Bloss]

Do search on the forum or more reading in this decking sub-forum. Plenty of threads which will help you including a recent one on the CAMO system (which was liked buy the member who used it, but it seemed to me from the videos to be very slow and also not as well suited to the decking timbers used in Australia. But I've not used it. I have used biscuit type systems and they work OK, but are slow too. I am not so fussed about hiding fixings - quite like SS screw heads.

[DEMAK Timber]

One way to cut down on installation time is to have the boards pre-grooved on the sides if you are using one of the biscuit type fixing systems...

[Bloss]

One way to cut down on installation time is to have the boards pre-grooved on the sides if you are using one of the biscuit type fixing systems...

Always have - although occasionally pre-slotted all boards sections, regardless still slower than SS screws . . ., but DIYers usually don't count (or value) their own time - I always do . . .

[stevoh741]

I wouldn't use anything but screws on 140 wide decking. Will cup all over the place using an edge fix system IMO

[Marc]

coasta007
laying deck but dont want to screw it down
Hi all,
I’m after some advice about laying my new deck. I have about 50m2 to lay and I want to use the 140mm x 25mm planks. I’ll probably end up using the 140mm x 19mm planks but I want to know if there is a system where I don’t have to pre drill and screw the boards down. I want to use a hardwood so every plank will need to be pre drilled.

The only product I’ve seen is the deckmax and nonaildecking system but not sure if there are any other securing systems out.

I’ve laid my pool deck (95m2) using 75mm stainless screws and I ended up using over 6500 screws.

I prefer to use another method to secure them but not sure whats out there at the moment.

Any help appreciated.



You say you don't want to screw it down. The only other alternative to screws is nails. I am sure you can appreciate that nails will not work well and would need to be pre-drilled anyway.
So it is back to screws.

You say you used 6500 screws on 95 m2 of deck. I thought you would use some 4600 screws for that size.
Never mind, still a lot of screws, but how do you want to cut down?

The hidden fasteners that use a biscuit use half the amount of screws but 10 times the amount of work to slot the sides with a biscuit jointer.
If you buy pre-slotted boards you will pay a premium price or will have to do it yourself.
Not hard to do but still need to use a spindle moulder or a router table.

I used the Camo system and find it very good for my application, on Cyprus at 90x21mm. No predrilling necessary, the screws are self drilling and work every time.
I am considering replacing the deck in another section with 140x32 Cyprus and will use the Camo again.

If you want to use 140mm wide boards I wouldn't even consider the 19mm thick. You are asking for trouble if you do. Go 25 or even 32 if you can but not 19.

As for the comment above that unless you use screws the boards will cup, I am of a different opinion. I have seen 140x19 boards cup and they were screwed down with 14 gauge 75 mm bugle screws. No screw nail or bolt will stop a board from cupping if that is what it wants to do.
A decking board is subject to powerful forces due to wide variations in temperature and humidity. The larger the top surface, the stronger the forces. If there is a disproportionate surface in relation to the mass of the board, the timber will cup and no screw will stop this from happening. Some wood is stronger than others but all will do it to some degree.
The only way I know to stop a thin (19mm) board from cupping is to cripple it by ripping a groove under it in the center, some 8 to 10mm deep.

In short, If you want hidden fasteners, and no pre drilling, go Camo. If you want to use less number of screws yet work harder and pay way more for it, use the no nail or similar. (prestige decking is the best of the bunch)
You can of course pre drill and top screw, or ... dare I say, nail.

I don't know any other way to fix a deck, although I have seen a guy who screwed a pre-drilled L shaped steel bar along each of the joist and then screwed the deck boards from below.
Funny but not fun.

[stevoh741]

You say you don't want to screw it down. The only other alternative to screws is nails. I am sure you can appreciate that nails will not work well and would need to be pre-drilled anyway.
So it is back to screws.

You say you used 6500 screws on 95 m2 of deck. I thought you would use some 4600 screws for that size.
Never mind, still a lot of screws, but how do you want to cut down?

The hidden fasteners that use a biscuit use half the amount of screws but 10 times the amount of work to slot the sides with a biscuit jointer.
If you buy pre-slotted boards you will pay a premium price or will have to do it yourself.
Not hard to do but still need to use a spindle moulder or a router table.

I used the Camo system and find it very good for my application, on Cyprus at 90x21mm. No predrilling necessary, the screws are self drilling and work every time.
I am considering replacing the deck in another section with 140x32 Cyprus and will use the Camo again.

If you want to use 140mm wide boards I wouldn't even consider the 19mm thick. You are asking for trouble if you do. Go 25 or even 32 if you can but not 19.

As for the comment above that unless you use screws the boards will cup, I am of a different opinion. I have seen 140x19 boards cup and they were screwed down with 14 gauge 75 mm bugle screws. No screw nail or bolt will stop a board from cupping if that is what it wants to do.
A decking board is subject to powerful forces due to wide variations in temperature and humidity. The larger the top surface, the stronger the forces. If there is a disproportionate surface in relation to the mass of the board, the timber will cup and no screw will stop this from happening. Some wood is stronger than others but all will do it to some degree.
The only way I know to stop a thin (19mm) board from cupping is to cripple it by ripping a groove under it in the center, some 8 to 10mm deep.

In short, If you want hidden fasteners, and no pre drilling, go Camo. If you want to use less number of screws yet work harder and pay way more for it, use the no nail or similar. (prestige decking is the best of the bunch)
You can of course pre drill and top screw, or ... dare I say, nail.

I don't know any other way to fix a deck, although I have seen a guy who screwed a pre-drilled L shaped steel bar along each of the joist and then screwed the deck boards from below.
Funny but not fun.

I didn't say screws would stop cupping I was implying side fixing would be worse on a 140 board. I mainly use 140x32 spotty fixed with spax batten screws and still on occasion get some minimal cupping.

[DEMAK Timber]

Funny but not fun.

At what point do you ask yourself if perhaps this was not such a good idea...?

All those companies that sell hidden systems for wide board all say you should glue the boards down aswell...

[Marc]

At what point do you ask yourself if perhaps this was not such a good idea...?

All those companies that sell hidden systems for wide board all say you should glue the boards down aswell...

You will have to expand on that.
What is not a good idea?

I agree that some of the hidden fasteners sold in Australia, the plastic biscuit one, do recommend to glue.
Is that so bad? An admission of weakness? May be, however to make such judgement one would have to have used the product extensively and seen some negative results arising from it, and not from poor choice of timber.

There are many dozen of hidden fasteners some good some not so good, and none of them, besides the one mentioned above, require gluing.

The original poster wants to fix a deck and does not want to top screw.
What are the options?
What do you sell in your store?

If I had decking material to sell that is wide and not so thick, say 140x19 or even 25, I would offer for a bit extra money to run a groove along the underside to prevent cupping.

[DEMAK Timber]

You will have to expand on that.
What is not a good idea?

I agree that some of the hidden fasteners sold in Australia, the plastic biscuit one, do recommend to glue.
Is that so bad? An admission of weakness? May be, however to make such judgement one would have to have used the product extensively and seen some negative results arising from it, and not from poor choice of timber.

There are many dozen of hidden fasteners some good some not so good, and none of them, besides the one mentioned above, require gluing.

The original poster wants to fix a deck and does not want to top screw.
What are the options?
What do you sell in your store?

If I had decking material to sell that is wide and not so thick, say 140x19 or even 25, I would offer for a bit extra money to run a groove along the underside to prevent cupping.

Hi Marc,

I was just referring to the amount of time required to complete a large deck with hidden fasteners. I think on very large decks most people would stick to screwing.

I don't think recommending glue is a weakness, I think the fastener and the glue work together to do the job. But make sure it's the right glue (toolbox or zero nails etc..)

We stock the Archideck and the KlevaKlip. The Archideck is a much more popular product. DIY loves it, the only negative comments I ever get are from tradies who say if they get another job for it again they'd have us pre rebate the sides of the timber. (a service we offer..)

[Marc]

Hi Marc,

I was just referring to the amount of time required to complete a large deck with hidden fasteners. I think on very large decks most people would stick to screwing.

I don't think recommending glue is a weakness, I think the fastener and the glue work together to do the job. But make sure it's the right glue (toolbox or zero nails etc..)

We stock the Archideck and the KlevaKlip. The Archideck is a much more popular product. DIY loves it, the only negative comments I ever get are from tradies who say if they get another job for it again they'd have us pre rebate the sides of the timber. (a service we offer..)

Have you ever grooved the underside of decking boards to prevent cupping?

[DEMAK Timber]

Have you ever grooved the underside of decking boards to prevent cupping?

We certainly have the spindle moulder and cutter for it, but have never been asked to do it before. I have seen some decking in the past come from the saw mill with relief grooves precut though.
That said, we have been selling 140mm (merbau mainly) for the last 7-8 years and in that time only had a few reports of cupping...

[Gaza]

We certainly have the spindle moulder and cutter for it, but have never been asked to do it before. I have seen some decking in the past come from the saw mill with relief grooves precut though.
That said, we have been selling 140mm (merbau mainly) for the last 7-8 years and in that time only had a few reports of cupping...

there are a few differnt views on the use groving the back of baords not all them suggest that by doing it will actual stop the cupping

[coasta007]

Thank you all for your replies. Just to clarify a few things. When i say i dont want to screw the boards down, i mean i dont want to secure them down from the top. i would never ever use nails. I'm a firm believer or doing a good and proper job. Nailing is far from a good or proper job. i dont want my kids running around and getting their feet caught on the nail heads which have popped up.

i've decided on getting 140 (136mm once milled down) x 19mm Ironbark decking and im considering using the Camo system to hold it down with some glue on the joists. I've spoken to the rep from Camo and they tell you that the camo system is fine and wont cup and and and and but the truth comes from the guys who have used it.

Im still undecided about the Camo system.

[jimj]

The choice of timber and fixings are numerous. However, IMO ,I wouldn't consider going 140x19. 19mm thick for that width will certainly cup if this deck is fully exposed to the weather. At a minimum ,I would look at least at 22mm or better yet25mm. I see decks daily and nearly all have some form of cupping. Even my 125x32 spotted gum deck has some. It is just what timber likes to do.

jimj :U

[stevoh741]

gluing to the joists also prevents you from using a decent joist protection system. Lose yrs of the life of your deck without joist protection.