Architect Question

[Big Shed]

I was reminded of this thread as I drove through Bendigo this afternoon.

We have recently had 2 examples of the architects' skills put up in Bendigo. One is the new police station, never seen a bigger a***tion of a building in my life, the other is the new Bendigo Bank HQ, already named Rubic's Cube, need I say more?

In the case of the police station, some offices are unable to be used because of light/heat/sun problems, when I see the building I can believe it.

Apart from both buildings being an eyesore in their own right (a value judgement, I know) they are totally out of character with their surroundings.

[DvdHntr]

Some architects are good but when they don't even know what it says in the BCA about ventilation of a sub floor, you have to be worried.

[silentC]

they don't even know what it says in the BCA about ventilation of a sub floor
That question is beneath them :wink:

[pawnhead]

Pawnheads list of piccies above with work designed by architects should be an exciting series of piccies, but it could easily be out of country monthly, or "Conservative Housing".Yeh, there's nothing 'off the wall' there, but just some examples of well designed projects that I've worked on myself.
This one was a good interpretation of art deco, and I liked it:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_John.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/John.jpg)

And this one was my favourite. Certainly not the most opulent, but it's how I'd design my house if I had the dollars. With exposed poles and trusses inside and out, it's a good example of an engineer and architect working together on design. It had a nice wet edge pool and views of Whale Beach:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_jWhaleBeach4-1.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/jWhaleBeach4-1.jpg) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_31-10-200724515AM.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/31-10-200724515AM.jpg) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_31-10-200724515.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/31-10-200724515.jpg)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_31-10-200724508AM.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/31-10-200724508AM.jpg) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_25-09-2007105430AM.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/25-09-2007105430AM.jpg)

I built the trusses in place. I would have just oiled them or something. The painters didn't read the spec properly and painted over the bolts, so they had to paint all the bolt heads galv with an artists brush. :U
There's a pond under the front steps, and I installed a 200 year old Balinese front door.
The place was gorgeous IMO.

[DvdHntr]

Yeh, there's nothing 'off the wall' there, but just some examples of well designed projects that I've worked on myself.
This one was a good interpretation of art deco, and I liked it:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_John.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/John.jpg)

And this one was my favourite. Certainly not the most opulent, but it's how I'd design my house if I had the dollars. With exposed poles and trusses inside and out, it's a good example of an engineer and architect working together on design. It had a nice wet edge pool and views of Whale Beach:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_jWhaleBeach4-1.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/jWhaleBeach4-1.jpg) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_31-10-200724515AM.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/31-10-200724515AM.jpg) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_31-10-200724515.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/31-10-200724515.jpg)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_31-10-200724508AM.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/31-10-200724508AM.jpg) http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_25-09-2007105430AM.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/25-09-2007105430AM.jpg)

I built the trusses in place. I would have just oiled them or something. The painters didn't read the spec properly and painted over the bolts, so they had to paint all the bolt heads galv with an artists brush. :U
There's a pond under the front steps, and I installed a 200 year old Balinese front door.
The place was gorgeous IMO.

If you get the right architect that understands structures they can do some good things. My issue are the ones that don't think the design through in terms of how it can work structurally.

[DvdHntr]

That question is beneath them :wink:

I had a guy that said I couldn't use hardwood timber to cantilever out on a deck. I said OK and changed the design to use concrete footings cantilevering so that the timber was supported both sides. I then enquired and he said that the timber needed to be treated pine for termite protection. So I had to point out that the hardwood was better for protection and you can actually treat hardwood as well. Then I found out that the reason that termites were a problem was that he was planning to put the timber on the ground directly.

[pharmaboy2]

Like I said, arty farty tossers! This is where we diverge from reality and head into la la land. A house is not art! It's a box to live in and protect your stuff from the elements!

Yes, all very well in affluent Sydney, but down here in the country mate, we don't care about philosophy of art or whatever, we just want a nice looking house, that looks like a house, and has a roof and room for a beer fridge. Some of the monstrosities that the baby boomers are building here are hideous - but because they're architect designed, we must all have our heads up our rears if we can't see them for the esoteric manifestations of the owner's personality that they are. In fact, that's exactly what they are. That's why I hate them, because I have no time for the people who live in them!

"looks like a house" - usually this means it looks like a house to other people - ie a socially acceptable house. Acceptance is up there in human requirements.

Architecture as art requires clients with open wallets and absolute trust for design in the architect.

So silentC, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head as far as Alain De Botton's concerned. You care what others think of you by virtue of the house you live in - you want acceptance. The person building the 'monstrosity" in others eyes, doesnt need nor want acceptance from the locals - their self esteem isnt built on others opinions - they like it, and thats enough. Further chances are they dont give a crapola if it will sell in the real estate market in time.

The last point is probably the most important. In most suburbs and towns building something avant garde with only 2 bedrooms and not with brick and tile has higher risk come selling time - so must of us avoid such risks.

So all in all, they dont expect you to be able to see their house in the same way - they simply dont expect anything of you at all - havent even given it a second thought (once through council that is ! ;) )

[derekcohen]

Architecture as art requires clients with open wallets and absolute trust for design in the architect.

This totally misses the point.

Good design is a combination of aesthetics and economy. Good design - art - is doing the best with the available finances.

To assume that art is only for the wealthy is a bigotted perspective.

Just because some may have large pockets (and can employ who they want and build what they want), this is no promise that the result will be either art or even inhabitable.

Equally, small pockets determine nothing either.

It is not the size of the pocket that determines an artistic design - it is the vision of the designer to work with the materials at hand. No different from woodworking really!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[silentC]

You care what others think of you by virtue of the house you live in - you want acceptance.I suppose there is an element of concern for what other's might think, although I don't think it's as central as you believe. I wouldn't want people to see my house and make judgements about my personality based on it. I want them to see a conservative house that doesn't try to be anything more than a house - but only when they come inside and see my CDs, DVDs and books would they be able to tell anything about me or my family. The house is just a comfortable place to live, not an extension of our collective personality.

Actually the shape of my house is determined more by the rooms we wanted, the shape of the block, the direction of the view relative to north, the rural setting and the building method we chose to use than anything else. There were a few things we wanted: tin not tiles; verandahs - but these were practical decisions. I also like gables, so we had to have some of those. The triangle on top of a box fits my pre-school interpretation of a house. You could probably say that we were being safe by choosing a conventional design. It's interesting to think about and analyse the reasons behind it.

I agree that some people probably don't really care what anyone else thinks - and let's face it in some cases that is the only polite way to explain some of the monstrosities. I don't think that explains all of them though. A house is a very visual thing and if there isn't at least a healthy serve of "look at me" involved, I'll eat my beret.

[pharmaboy2]

derek, it doesnt miss the point because what I'm defining is not what you are. Good design may well be a combination of aesthetics and economy (economy of purpose ?). BUT good design doesnt necessarily equate to art.

While its difficult to define, art usually requires some human creativity and communicates something to others. Good design can encompass a cog wheel inside a tool - but i dont think anyone would consider it art. different terms with different meanings.

The rest I agree with. However to build a radical house requires either extreme levels of confidence or enough dough to not care. trying to sell a one off house in a conservative market where the majority of the population think its a monstrosity, is a gamble - most people dont gamble with their biggest asset. thats the point about money, and we havent even delved into how the average AD house is $2500 a m versus $500 for a project home - but i grant you, you dont necessarily need $2500/m to get art - its just mightily difficult on $500pm

[bitingmidge]

Good design can encompass a cog wheel inside a tool - but i dont think anyone would consider it art.

I'm thinking about responding to this thread, but clearly, it'd be casting pearls to the swine.

Of course it's art!

P
:D:D:D

[derekcohen]

Good design can encompass a cog wheel inside a tool - but i dont think anyone would consider it art.

For myself that could be art - not just any cog, but one that has been designed with an elegant simplicity.


we havent even delved into how the average AD house is $2500 a m versus $500 for a project home

You are still equating money and art.

When you search the newspaper ads for available homes on sale you will notice a wide variety of prices for what appear to be very similar homes, say 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. Then the person down the street decides to sell their house and expects to get the same as his neighbour, Joe Bloggs, because it is the same size, number of rooms, etc. Then you visit and see the two homes side-by-side.

What the above examples do not take into account is design, finishings, materials, etc. Cheap Project homes do tend to use bottom of the rung finishes, since they are being built to a price.

You can make art with a low price and a high price. It always comes down to the flair and the inventiveness of the designer and builder. Putting these together for me is what I call "art".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[pharmaboy2]

Silent, the other great philosophical view on housing, is that its "safety" - my home is my castle, its where the outside world stops and my world begins, so feeling ['safe' and "comfortbale" is important. Just drive down the street and notice how little glazing there is in th e front of houses, and even then how the curtains ae always drawn - we do that to escape the outside world and seek security - whoah - gettign a bit too deep there pb...

The "look at me" thing I agree is common, but I always judge that one by the maximum width, maximum height front with biggest cover to the front door I can get - the classic example is the Mc Mansion - all garage, height and look at me. When its an AD example, its often a good bet that the owners requirements (wants,needs) have driven the design - the architect whose into aesthetics and building as art i believe is more subtle when given an open brief.

[pharmaboy2]

"You are still equating money to art."

no - I'm equating Architect designed buidings with money, just because its AD doesnt make it art, not does it make it art if it costs $2500pm. $20k on drawings to most people is 2 upgraded bathrooms, a double garage, a workshop etc. If I designed something original and artistic, I can almost guarantee that no -one would build it for project home pricing plus 20% or even 50% - originality in building comes at a cost. Archtiect designed houses are expensive to design and expensive to build, to deny it is to claim the Yarra is a pretty as the Swan!

[silentC]

I suppose what I am saying is that I didn't put a lot of thought into making a statement with my house - I was more concerned about the inside of the house and the size of the shed :)

So I suppose in one way, that supports the argument that a house is an expression of self in that it shows I don't give a fig for houses as art - and that I have a cynical view of those who do. Perhaps a bit of cultural cringe at work there. I also glaze over at the eyeballs when people try to explain to me why a canvas splashed with paint is worthy of my respect :)

But getting back to my original point on entering this thread - I think there is certainly a place for designers with a practical view to building design - because there are people like me, who need some assistance with in designing a house, but don't need the full blown services of an architect, with all that they entail.

[derekcohen]

Archtiect designed houses are expensive to design and expensive to build

I don't think that you understand what I have been saying.

You are still equating money and art, and money and design.

My father, an architect, used to design "economy" housing - estates for the low income earners. He also designed old age homes, which similarly had to be built to a low figure. He did not design little boxes. The designs were aesthetically pleasing and real people were proud to live in them. The designs won awards, not for their low cost, but for what could be done with the low budget. He understood what was wanted and he looked for a way to put it together in a handsome, practical and economic way. That is art. That is good design. That is a good use of available economy. In this example, the architect used money wisely.

A few years ago, when I began to put together options for the office addition that we are now beginning, I went to see what one of the local builders could offer. Their design service consisted of a so-called draftsman - I say "so-called" because he had just recently learned to use the CAD program the company had invested in. He was totally - TOTALLY - devoid of any creative ideas - that is, how to use the space available, how to make the design pleasing and aesthetic ... I could go on with shock and horror. His idea was a little box perched on top of the roof. Now this design and construction (if I had been silly enough to accept it) would have cost me thousands of dollars in value lost since it would have depreciated the value of the residence. The current design - by an architect - is both wonderful in design and economic in construction costs. The two people involved are like chalk and cheese.

Do not view architects and the people who use them as extravagent. They are, instead, individuals who wish to use their resources wisely, and seek the aid of an expert to do so.

Again, I speak of groups, not individuals here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bitingmidge]

Thank-you Derek, for making all my points while I was away, and ever so much more eloquently than I would have!

As an architect who for many years was designing houses which sold for less than $2,000 US, I am continually appalled at the stupid typecasting which occurs.

The staple of my last suburban practice was exactly the sort of service described in the first post of this thread. Essentially I was engaged to ADD VALUE and while the market in which I chose to work at the time was in the lower end of the spectrum, there were (and are) many ways of delivering a well designed product in an economical manner.

No-one expects to get Mercedes quality from a Hyundai, yet for reasons that continue to escape me that is what people expect from their houses.

I am the first to admit that architecture, as with any trade or profession is not without it's dud practitioners. My own observations would have less than 15% of the profession practicing at the very top level of proficiency.

On the other hand my own observations tell me that 85% of clients reckon they know it all as well, and part of my craft has been in subtly convincing them that perhaps there are better places to place the kitchen than "facing the street".

Australia as a country is devoid of the cultural imprinting or "flair" which gives other countries an innate sense of style.

For the likes of Silent :wink: and so many others, it's all the same once the lights are out anyway, and even with the lights on a few beers will fix it, so there's no need to waste good beer money on quality design.

We carry that thinking through in most aspects of our life here: Cars are just for getting us from point a to b, taking food is just a means of keeping us alive till the pub opens, houses keep us dry till the footy starts or if we're really lucky, provide somewhere to hang the plasma screen.

In other places, each of those is an activity that adds value to life, a sensation to be experienced.

Is my jetlag still showing??

P
:D:D:D

[Carpenter]

Do not view architects and the people who use them as extravagent. They are, instead, individuals who wish to use their resources wisely, and seek the aid of an expert to do so.

Again, I speak of groups, not individuals here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Great to see you had such a positive experience Derek, its how it should be. However, my experience with this mob is that precious few architects cut the mustard. The overwhelming majority seem to be rather disturbed individuals riddled with insecurities manifested from being laughed at too many times & the realisation that 6yrs of cloistered learning does not equate to functionality in the real world:doh:. 95% of them couldn't design a building to suit a budget if their life depended on it, & I've seen time & time again sickening budget blowouts on projects:C. They are more concerned with seeing a vision manifest than operating within a clients financial means. By all means there is a very real need for architects, if it was up to builders everyone would be living in square boxs, but the Australian Institute of Architects needs to take a good long look at the calibre of "smoke & mirrors proffessionals" it is producing & try to improve the crop. They're like a group of eccentrics holed up behind a defensive wall, telling each other how great they are while the rest of the world hurles abuse from the gates.:2tsup:

[bitingmidge]

.. and may I now tell you about the carpenter know-it alls?

The ones that suppose themselves to be tradesmen, yet can't read drawings?

I've seen them time and time again contribute to sickening budget blow-outs by not even being able to adequately estimate work just for their own trade, let alone an entire building.

The ones that don't know to prime the faces of joints in exposed timbers before fastening them, or how to fix hardwood weatherboards without having them split as they dry.

The ones that hurl abuse at others from the gates while telling each other how great they are.

You see, by pointing the finger at just one profession or trade, one can speak many truths, one can get a rise even, but the truth is that all have similar failings, not just the architectural profession.

If you think the Institute of Architects needs to have a look at itself (and I don't disagree by the way) then by golly, you should look seriously at the Builder's Labourers Federation.

Cheers,

P
:p

[pawnhead]

It’s not often that a builder works ‘do and charge’. They’re far more likely to be on a fixed contract, and any blowouts in their budget come out of their own pockets. Architects on the other hand, usually take no responsibility for the cost of a job. The more it costs, the bigger their 20% becomes. They usually whack on a decent ‘contingency’ sum so they’ve got something to play around with if they change their minds about something, and they’d use it all up, and often try to convince the client to spend a bit more.
The only way the client is going to be ‘ripped off’ by a builder on contract, is if he goes broke and does a runner after the architect has authorized progress payments above and beyond the work already performed.

Of course everyone on these forums is the best at what they specialize in. We can all pat each other on the backs for that. We’ve got the best architect, and I’m the best chippie/builder, and that’s why everyone else that we deal with seems so inferior. Ego’s not a detrimental quality if you’re trying to sell yourself. I’d rather employ someone who was confident than someone who’s unsure, but a lot of architects seem to be doing the jobs for themselves, and for their resumes, instead of for the client. To be fair, from my perspective, it’s less than 15% of architects that are prima donnas who look down their nose at builders and tradesmen as a lesser species, but they give the rest a bad name and perpetuate the stereotype.
Most are very good at what they do, they’re not that fussy, and they leave the builder to sort out the details, and I’d agree that 15% are exceptional, and very proficient at providing accurate details of every nut and bolt to the builder, according to the original plans, on time, and on budget.

Of course admittedly there are dodgy builders that give the rest a bad name as well, so we can keep throwing stones over the fence at each other to ‘get a rise’.

And I still reckon there's a lot of drafties/building designers out there who'd do just as good a job for a lot less dollars. :p

[bitingmidge]

The more it costs, the bigger their 20% becomes.

A few facts in the debate would be helpful though!

The old "standard method" for calculating complete Architectural Services was 6% of the building contract.

Over the past two decades with different delivery methods evolving, the complete service is a rare beast indeed, but when it happens (on commercial projects at least) its rarely more than about 4% and in most cases more like 2.5. Of course smaller jobs are handled differently, usually charged by the hour or some other method.

This is really a rule of thumb as most consultants are engaged on a fixed lump sum basis these days.

At the above rates, it is quite difficult for a firm to make a profit, resulting in architecture being one of the lowest paid professions in the country, and we all know what we get when we pay peanuts!

When I was practicing, I was always slightly peeved that we could command less money than the real estate agent selling the job!

Cheers,

P

[silentC]

For the likes of Silent :wink: and so many others, it's all the same once the lights are out anyway, and even with the lights on a few beers will fix it, so there's no need to waste good beer money on quality design.
That's not strictly correct though, is it? I know plenty of people who feel that way, but most of us at least have some idea of what works and what doesn't. The MacDonalds mansion crowd have bad taste, but it's not the same as not having any taste at all. I'm sure they like the look of their houses - they picked them out of a catalogue after all.

We've all lived in houses long enough to know what we like. Take our place - the last house we owned had a poky little kitchen on the other side of the house from the lounge. We obviously spend most of our evenings either in the kitchen or in the lounge, so it's nice to have them next to each other so that SWMBO can call out the cricket score while I'm cooking the chicken parmigiana. In my opinion, these things are far more important than what the house looks like.

I saw a house on TV the other day. They'd designed it with a funnel shaped roof that diverted all the water off the roof into a tear drop-shaped rain water tank in the middle of the living room. It looked like a large white epiglottis dangling from the ceiling. What possible design principle would support that? Hope it never leaks. I agree having a water tank is an important aspect of modern housing design, but that's just silly.

I know what I like, I admit my tastes are a bit on the conservative side, I certainly take a practical view of things - the thing has to perform it's intended function and this should not be compromised by aesthetics. It is important to me that the house looks good, in a practical, neat, old-fashioned rural property sort of way. A bird cage would not have fit in here at all. Judging by the majority of the houses here, most people feel the same. We come from all walks of life but independently we have all hit on designs that are harmonious. A couple of short kilometres to the south east though, we see the results of the ex-Melbourne baby boomer and architect worlds colliding!

[Bleedin Thumb]

Pharmaboy, I think you are mistaking good design with practical design or perhaps well resolved design.

I agree entirely with Derek's statement that good design can/is art.............

A good design is a design that is pleasing aesthetically, economically considered, has a sense of place in its surroundings and is well resolved and practical.


Well it probably is a whole lot more also but you get my point.

[Bleedin Thumb]

The whole argument about cost blowouts being caused by the Architect is a bit naive. You may find that cost blowouts can be caused by many thinks such as latent conditions, contractor miscalculations, necessary design changes or even unrealistic client budgets to start with.

Its always easy to blame the architect however sometimes as BM has pointed out the blame does lay elsewhere.

[pharmaboy2]

good : having desirable or positive qualities especially those suitable for a thing specified

so "good design" is dependant both on the outcome and what was specified at the beginning. So good design meets its requirements - those requirements are what determines whether its good or not.

thus in terms of the output, good design can mean just about anything. the more descriptors we use the more we are hemmed in. The Guerkin is now highly regarded as a building, yet couldnt hgave a sense of its surroundings, nor a myriad of important archtecture - many of the great buildings in fact have created the environment ie someone has to be first.

Mr Midge - I have an almost full collection of "houses", a mag endorsed by the RAIA. What is most interesting is comparing their first couple of installments with the last half dozen years (I think its about a 15 yr span or thereabouts). Early on, the designs were not very modern, and quite conservative - nothing as avant garde as was produced in the 1920's Bauhaus for example, let alone Harry Seidlers 1950's work. Now - no rules, no conservatism, lots of experimentalism. It seems perhaps we are coming of age, finally.

Good architects, CAN do economical work, but its rare. Untill its common then architecture has to live with the view of the general populace about expense and practicality.

I like to see new buildings of new design that challenge pre conceptions of what houses look like - particularly when they become more and more attractive over time (eye of the beholder). The extension of the body of work in housing as art (for want of a better term), is good for us - God help us if we yearn for the vistas of Coronation Street!

The creation of that housing in the first place though requires pioneers - either extreme confidence or money, preferably both. The word "value" as understood by joe average is encapsulated in whats it built of and how big is it - smaller better designed is a harder sell, hence a hundred project homes are built for every architect designed one - though even there there has been some movement.

Art also requires originality - a copy, is a copy of an artwork not THE art.

[bitingmidge]

good : [SIZE=-1]Mr Midge - I have an almost full collection of "houses", a mag endorsed by the RAIA. What is most interesting is comparing their first couple of installments with the last half dozen years (I think its about a 15 yr span or thereabouts). Early on, the designs were not very modern, and quite conservative - nothing as avant garde as was produced in the 1920's Bauhaus for example, let alone Harry Seidlers 1950's work. Now - no rules, no conservatism, lots of experimentalism. It seems perhaps we are coming of age, finally.
I will now revert to my true cynical self, and advise that "houses" is/was a publication of the RAIA certainly, but the contributors pay to be there, and as such it is no arbiter of what is good, rather it is a bundle of ads, where architects attempt to seduce prospective clients with work that they determine will be attractive to a particular segment of the community!

NEVER mistake the winner of an architectural award for a particularly competent piece of architecture! That would be like thinking an oscar winning movie was a supreme example of that craft. Both may be, but they are more likely to be popularist pieces designed to attract the vote their peers.


Good architects, CAN do economical work, but its rare. Untill its common then architecture has to live with the view of the general populace about expense and practicality.

I think that is where you are wrong. I have been in a position of engaging consultants for the past fifteen years, and you have to believe that the development industry does not survive if it does not get economical work.

The view of the general populace in the scheme of things doesn't matter all that much to the practice of architecture, it's the development industry from which it derives the vast majority of its income.

Note I am talking the VAST MAJORITY, not all here.

I am also surprised at how often architects take the flack for things well out of their control, in a debate such as this, people are happy to differenciate between architect and designer, yet how many times have you heard someone talk about the "mistakes of their architect" when talking about some backyard draftie?

Hmmm, I'm not really on thread here am I?

I'll try again later!

P
:D:D:D

[pharmaboy2]

I think that is where you are wrong. I have been in a position of engaging consultants for the past fifteen years, and you have to believe that the development industry does not survive if it does not get economical work.

Maybe we are both right?

Economies of scale operate in the development industry, so you would expect for a $50,000 archictecture fee to go a lot longer in a $2m build than in a $300,000 build with $30k or 15k fee.

Further single buildings are competing against a myriod of project builders with plans already to go and easy to build, wheras a 20 unit development is always going to be drawn as a once only (whether a designer, draughtsman, or chartered architect) - so the competing cost bases are different.

point taken on houses, but it does illustrate then that the public has also come a long way if those are the houses that are acceptable for publication. Besides I only buy it for the piccies (!) and to steal their ideas for my own castle.

[bitingmidge]

most of us at least have some idea of what works and what doesn't.
I don't believe that to be the case at all!! Firstly the MOST important thing about a house design is designing for climate, and this is where the fundamental lack of knowledge comes to the fore.

You see it everywhere, but particularly in the land ads "North to street" "faces views" etc.

In my (vast :D) experience, most of us don't even consider this.



The MacDonalds mansion crowd have bad taste, but it's not the same as not having any taste at all. I'm sure they like the look of their houses - they picked them out of a catalogue after all.
So do a count. Aren't they "most" of us? Before McMansions there were cream venerials, before that the triple-fronters and before that the California Bungalow.

They were all catalogue houses where the impression from the street was the only "design" feature.

"Most" of us live happily in those environments, while claiming to be the arbiters of good taste.


We've all lived in houses long enough to know what we like. Is what we "like" good design necessarily?


Take our place - the last house we owned had a poky little kitchen on the other side of the house from the lounge.
I'll bet the "architect" copped flak for that!:D

We obviously spend most of our evenings either in the kitchen or in the lounge, so it's nice to have them next to each other so that SWMBO can call out the cricket score while I'm cooking the chicken parmigiana. In my opinion, these things are far more important than what the house looks like. Form follows function my friend! :rolleyes:


Bugger, I have to do some work... I'll continue later!

P
:D:D:D

[journeyman Mick]

I was going to add to this thread but I think it's all been said here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=42149&page=2) and here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=8297) :D

Mick

[pawnhead]

I was going to add to this thread but I think it's all been said here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=42149&page=2) and here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=8297) :D

MickThanks for the links.
A couple of interesting threads there, with a lot of words of wisdom. :2tsup:

I remember that Fed Square doco. It was a hoot, and wasn't that architect a piece of work eh?
Nigel would've been proud of him. :U

[Carpenter]

.. and may I now tell you about the carpenter know-it alls?
The ones that suppose themselves to be tradesmen, yet can't read drawings?
I've seen them time and time again contribute to sickening budget blow-outs by not even being able to adequately estimate work just for their own trade, let alone an entire building.

The ones that don't know to prime the faces of joints in exposed timbers before fastening them, or how to fix hardwood weatherboards without having them split as they dry.

There's no shortage of them thats for sure, but its pretty easy to just give them the flick & get a more capable carpenter. Quality control should be the responsibility of everyone, but the buck stops with the principle contractor. If he's not looking after this then I agree all hell can break loose. My point is Architects are generally self regulating & in a much greater position of power, & their typical failings are given a fertile soil to grow in when a trusting client naively surrenders too much control. Most clients I've encountered purposly engage the services of an Architect because they don't feel confident about the building process & want someone to take the helm, & from my observations it rarely goes well.



The ones that hurl abuse at others from the gates while telling each other how great they are.

What? Life's a bit more realistic down on the tools Midge, if you cant walk the talk, it wont take long for someone to pull you into line or send you packing. Maybe the RAIA could organise some site visits to learn how to do this? The hardest lessons are usually the ones that bear the most fruit.



You see, by pointing the finger at just one profession or trade, one can speak many truths, one can get a rise even, but the truth is that all have similar failings, not just the architectural profession.

Couldn't agree more but this thread is about Architects, so I'm just giving my 2 bobs worth based one 25yrs of sporadic encounters with Architects.



If you think the Institute of Architects needs to have a look at itself (and I don't disagree by the way) then by golly, you should look seriously at the Builder's Labourers Federation.


I don't have anything to do with commercial work, but didn't the BLF disappear decades ago? Anyhow, what do you expect from an organisation run by labourers?:U

[journeyman Mick]

...............Anyhow, what do you expect from an organisation run by labourers?:U

Well, not too much labouring, that's for sure.:D

Mick

[silentC]

I don't believe that to be the case at all!! Firstly the MOST important thing about a house design is designing for climate, and this is where the fundamental lack of knowledge comes to the fore.
Well, I was really talking about the internal layout, but that's why I went to a building designer, because he did know how to design for climate. So he took my little boxes and rearranged them in a salubrious way.


So do a count. Aren't they "most" of us?
In certain suburbs of Sydney, certainly. Down my may, there are a few examples of the class at Tura Beach, but most new houses around here look either a bit like mine, or like a gilded birdcage for the preening of silver feathers therein. :wink:


Is what we "like" good design necessarily?
Obviously not, judging by some of things I have seen. I'm just saying that people do pay attention to the layout of the houses they live in and perhaps factor it in if they ever get a chance to design their own. I certainly do.

So what is good design? By what factors do you assess a design to say that it is good?

[journeyman Mick]

Just an interesting observation:
Ludwig Mies van der Rohe who is one of the key figures of modern architecture; who headed the Bauhaus for 3 years; ran architecture at the Illinois Institute of Technology for about 30 years; was famous for his "less is more" and "God is in the details" quotes; was responsible for innumerable huge public buildings as well as some iconic chairs and designed the first ever apartment buildings with curtain glass walling; never lived in any of his own, pared down, modern buildings. He chose instead, to live in an old fashioned cluttered house with small windows.

Now I quite like the look of some of his buildings, but I don't think I'd want to live in any of them either. My own humble dwelling was built to a very tight budget by a builder for his elderly mother. More through luck than design its orientation is pretty good, but I would've designed it differently myself. And yeah, I would design my own house and draw it up myself, but I have seen some absolute shocker owner designed places and wouldn't generally recommend it.

More food for thought.:wink:


Mick

[pharmaboy2]

thats funny mick - my 2 favourite objects are the Barcelona pavilion and the white barcelona chair! Although still on Bauhaus, I have a Le Corbusier chaise lounge, and it was definately designed for someone 5'10 or thereabouts - they need a largeer size these days!

A new house 2 doors down from us, looks like an attempt at an international modern box, but looks like it was owner designed, then paired down by a builder to price. Brand new 30 odd square home, and Id suggest it'll be D-9 ed by about 2030 - poor render, cheap small windows, no entry relief - black reliefs around windows and top, cheapest construction methods possible.

Maybe that the thing - poor modern attempts have a really high hate factor - you can stuff up the quality of a build on conservative lines and get away with it - the modern design however gives you no such latitude

[pawnhead]

My sisters house that I was talking about earlier, is a very old sandstone semi that only covered half of her double width block. It's a very simple 'two eyes (windows) and a nose (front door) design. The new extension was added to the side, and it's a square box that overhangs the lower section by about a metre and a half. The lower section has wide vertical folding steel and glass bifold doors. The architect wanted to put an expensive shop awning on the front that would have looked hideous.

It actually doesn't look all that bad, and it has grown on me. I'll have to take some pictures of the finished product.

[brynk]

haha all this talk about architects, engineers, builders & tradesmen buck-passing, art, & design made me think the biggest job i've ever worked on to date and incidently, my first job in the commercial construction industry...

(by the way, to me, good design is art is the elegant and economical application of a sound solution to a problem - this can only be achieved by a human or humans doing what they do best - manipulating an otherwise indifferent arrangement of molecules into some entropy-reversing form, initially for their own ongoing survival in the ether and the subsequent amusement &/ pleasure of other sentient beings; the latter which may not necessarily hail from their own species. if your soon-to-be-mum-cum-architect can do all this for a hundred bucks an hour then i say go for it - see if she'll give you a cash discount :U)

i hunted back through the formwork drawings, engineer's reinforcement & concrete drawings, and finally traced it back to an early architectural floor plan. from memory, the structural steelworker bore the cost of installing a bracket that the engineer okay'd without additional cost that the builder then suggested (as part of our day-to-day management of the job) to the architect, who then turned around and billed time for the 'management' of all of this to the client.

what does this prove? 1) mostbody never really reads the plans until it comes time to make them a reality - sure okay, they look at them; and 2) who was at fault? it was the bloody draftsman of course, for copying and pasting the floor plan from one level to the next :doh:

[Carpenter]

From memory, the structural steelworker bore the cost of installing a bracket that the engineer okay'd without additional cost that the builder then suggested (as part of our day-to-day management of the job) to the architect, who then turned around and billed time for the 'management' of all of this to the client.

what does this prove? 1) mostbody never really reads the plans until it comes time to make them a reality - sure okay, they look at them; and 2) who was at fault? it was the bloody draftsman of course, for copying and pasting the floor plan from one level to the next :doh:

The levels of complexity that can arise in a project are very often beyond any realistic expectation for anyone to foresee, particularly with an Architect designed project. This is not a criticism of Architects, just a recognition that its the nature of anything outside the square to throw up design & construction challenges. The scenario you describe above Brynk begs the question; Who solved the problem, & therefore who should be the one charging for it? I reckon the Steelworker should have been paid, because he would have provided 50% of the solution, the other 50% would have been from the Builder who would also be paid as this is a part of his day to day managment. The Architect, by nature of his trade as a designer is not predisposed to have much input to the problem at hand. He's a designer, not a structural problem solver. This is the realm of the builder & the relevant trade, but as you can see the Architect (who would have been standing about nodding agreement & contributing bucket loads of bugger all) never misses an opportunity to slug the client. Parasitic by nature, otherwise they'd starve.:2tsup: