rewiring the house....

[bec29]

Hi,

We are looking at renovating our 1953 kitchen. We have all plans drawn up, appliances all brought, quotes and tradies in place and all we needed to do was finalise plans and give the "go ahead".
I thought that i would organise a sparky and get a quote on the removal of current stove, relocation of power points and installing new power points for dishwasher, oven, and canopy rangehood.
To my surprise he suggested that we rewire our home - makes sense considering the wiring is 63 years old, but what shocked me was the rough quote of $7000 just to rewire a small 3 bedroom home.
This quote also did not include the kitchen aspect ie: removal of stove, power points etc. .... as that all is roughly an extra $1500 on top of the $7000 ($1000ish for kitchen and the $500ish being for work done to the metre box (as mentioned its original and needed upgrade for our canopy rangehood and other things etc etc).

Does this quote to rewire sound a bit over priced or am i not up to date with how much things cost these days???.

FYI - My mother was married to a sparky and he always did jobs for us with no labour charged...

Any advice would be greatly appriecated

[Moondog55]

Perhaps you could come to an arrangement with your sparky as we have, we got the new board installed and ran new lines to the kitchen and the air-conditioner, that was $900 plus $255 plus $255 plus parts.

He is happy to do the job in small bits, buy it costs more this way.

$7k sounds about right all in

[bec29]

The sparky did mention that he could just do the kitchen rewire, but he did'nt give me a price or a rough estimate - because he said it depends on how things are when he gets in to do it. I was not aware that you could rewire room by room as you can afford to do so?????
This would be FANTASTIC if we could.

I'm the kind of person that needs to know the quote/price BEFORE going into the job ... this way we know whats in our budget and leave some aside for any surprises.
$7000 was'nt in our budget, infact we only had $2500 sat aside for the sparky cost for our kitchen reno (thinking that we should have some money left over).

[theresearcher]

Is there another sparky available.

Don't panic over first quote, get others in.

If a tradie will not give a quote on a job spec, dismiss him/her. All you currently want is a quote for the kitchen, get them.

Its called shopping.

[Master Splinter]

$7k doesn't sound too bad for a rewire, new houses are in the region of $10k+. It's not just 'take old wires out, put new ones in', there's a good chance that the switchboard has to be replaced and new switches, circuit breakers, residual current devices and so on installed.

If your wiring is old, it may not be possible to do it room by room - a sparky is legally obliged to bring old work up to current standards if it is unsafe.

Pre 1960's homes were originally wired with vulcanised india rubber, which by now will be old and cracking - if he opens your meter box and the wiring is perished and unsafe, he is obliged to disconnect you until the wiring is made safe - so be aware that a cheap quote may turn into an expensive job anyway.

If you want to work out the price, use sparkydirect.com.au for materials price info, then double that cost and round it up.

[Moondog55]

I don't want to give the wrong impression here, my sparky put in a new switch board with RCDs first, would not add even one GPO until he had, then he added the extra lines for the stove and air-conditioner.

Not all sparkies will do one line at a time, we are lucky

[bec29]

Thanks for the info!.

I'm beginning to wonder if $7000 is a bit low and we should allow a further $2000 just incase (although thats really pushing the purse strings). considering its a further $1500-$2000 just for the kitchen installion)

We were told that the metre would have to be relocated to the front of the house when rewiring (currently its outside our back door).

There was mention of whether he would'nt know if there were any earth wires. And the other one was about a stake in the yard (should be with some sort of plumbing connection)... apparently there should be one, but i have'nt seen anything sticking out of our lawn except for 2 access holes to our drains, plumbing etc etc.

The sparky did'nt have a look at anything - just stood in my kitchen and gave me a brief run down of some possibilties.
I would hate to get somone like this to do the job and then get hit with a big fat bill (thousands more than indicated in the beginning of the job)

[applied]

How to quote a three step process by applied.

1 say you won't quote and you will charge a fair ammount by the hour everyone wins if it's verry difficult you don't loose if it's verry simple you have a early afternoon but you don't make so much.

2 if the client insists you quote imagin the worst case senario work out a price.

3 double that price hope they will get another sucker to do the job that you will probably loose money on because people who demand quotes are usually the ones that don't pay or stand next to you watching everything you do asking questions waisting time.

[bec29]

Moondog - Is your home pre 1960?.

No doubt we will need a new switch board considering its that damn old, i'm just wanting more of an accurate estimate from the sparky, not wanting him to come in here looking at nothing except my metre box (he was able to tell from that there is no new wiring).

The sparky was helpful in regards with what MAY need doing, but until he gets in there to do the job, he really could'nt give me an exact figure except for approx $7000.
I just thought to give that figure of $$$$ to a potential customer, he would have had to have a proper look at what and how big of a job it will be for my particular home..

[Moondog55]

Housing commission VIC built 1955.

If you think of labour being $55- an hour then add material costs. Then add the cost of inspection if there has to be one.

[GraemeCook]

Good Morning Bec

You have been given some excellent advice.

Your house is nearly 60 years old, any rubber insulation will probably have perished, some plastic may be suspect, plumbers may have inadvertently disconnected earthing to pipes, a host of potential problems. Your electrician is obliged, read legally required, to certify that all your wiring is safe before he leaves your premises or he must disconnect you. Harsh, but it is to protect you, your family, visitors and neighbours.

If you are comfortable with this sparkie then go with him; I sense that you are not so get a couple more quotes, and go with the sparkie that you think is the straitest shooter; talk to friends, relatives, neighbours, colleagues. acquaintances to get referrals - who to deal with; who to avoid.

Once you find a sparkie that you can trust then the 'do and charge' deal usually works out best. For a fixed price quote, he must incorporate provision for unexpected contingencies, which you pay even when there are none.

Actually, you are on the right path. It can be a worry, but you will get there.

Good Luck

Graeme

[Bloss]

Housing commission VIC built 1955.

If you think of labour being $55- an hour then add material costs. Then add the cost of inspection if there has to be one.

Labour @ $55hr :? - don't know where that comes from, but most charge-outs should be almost double that (or they are not paying tax, workers comp, insurance, super & other overheads). But Graeme's on the money - get at least one other estimate.

There is no such thing as a 'quote' really in renovations - all are 'estimates' and that goes for pretty much all trades unless the job can clearly be defined. Mostly that isn't so because much is covered up and until work starts and what is hidden is revealed then how long it will take and what materials will be needed are little more than educated guesses. I did a lot of work on an initial estimate which usually had a low and high range, but then worked on a costs plus hourly rate - but then mostly it was referred work and I was trusted and I trusted the client too - our contract was generally a handshake & integrity - like my Dah's was too.

Word of mouth is still the best guide - from those who have used the people you intend to use - and ideally for similar type of work. :2tsup:

[China]

$55 an hour that not a bad price for 1980

[Moondog55]

Then all I can say are that sparkies are overpaid; not enough tradesmen around I suppose.

I would only charge $45- an hour and people whinge about how much I cost, my carpenter charges $55- an hour and so does my plumber; no offense but why are electricians worth so much more?

[bec29]

I have been given alot of great advice, and must admit i'm more scared out of my wits now :oo: but i'd rather know what is most likely to happen than find out at some stage through the job.

Graemecook - The sparky that i did see was nice and pretty straight forward and gave me a small amount of info on the potential problems we could face with being such an old house. I recently spoke to this sparky again to see if we could rewire room by room (of cause starting with new switch board and earth stake installation if earth is needed) and he is willing to do that but it will cost more (this way we could do it as we can afford and hopefully have all house rewired within 12 months of doing it this way) BUT he has to come back for another visit - what will he look for this time, since he really did'nt look at much the first time?. By chance, are you a sparky yourself? I just realized that you are in hobart.

[jago]

Then all I can say are that sparkies are overpaid; not enough tradesmen around I suppose.

I would only charge $45- an hour and people whinge about how much I cost, my carpenter charges $55- an hour and so does my plumber; no offense but why are electricians worth so much more?


I'm paying $35 p/h for a really good sparkie (its mate rates) but his normal rate is $55p/h I reckon they're must be pretty special if the think they earn $225k a year as I've seen quoted on this site...I used to pay my project directors with $50> million responsibilities less.Maybe thats why the national building trade is fecked!:2tsup:

[applied]

Just to be clear the adverage sparky makes about $30-35 per hour the much higher rates you have seen quoted are correct.
There is also a difference between the rate and the call out the call out is generally double the hourly rate whitch covers travel but also includes either half or a full hour (the time spent assessing a job setting up packing up and paper work)
The hourly rates. average hourly rates are usually between $80-110 this covers insurance wages of office staff vans the cost of picking up materials and carrying stock, advertisement and company profit plus a long list of other expenses like taxes.
To be clear the sparky doing the job does not see this extra money ever even if they work for themself.

[Bloss]

Then all I can say are that sparkies are overpaid; not enough tradesmen around I suppose.

I would only charge $45- an hour and people whinge about how much I cost, my carpenter charges $55- an hour and so does my plumber; no offense but why are electricians worth so much more?

You are getting a bargain - obviously a location issue. In ACT charge out for a builder would be $75-100 hr. That's a gross rate - that means the chippy will be getting around $75-$80K a year gross sometimes a bit more with O/T and super on top - the rest are on costs and a margin for the company owner. AWE are sitting at $67K a year - that's around $32hr - so don't confuse pay rates for charge out rates they are not the same. If someone is charging out at their pay rate then super, workers comp, liability insurance and so on are probably not being paid. That's not good for them and not good for the customer either IMO.

[Moondog55]

OK I do understand the difference tho, that $45 is my charge rate, I keep forgetting how badly paid workers in catering are, award rate for cooks is less than half that.

But part of the problem must be the shortage of tradesmen and good tradesmen are then obviously in even shorter supply

[jago]

You are getting a bargain - obviously a location issue. In ACT charge out for a builder would be $75-100 hr. That's a gross rate - that means the chippy will be getting around $75-$80K a year gross sometimes a bit more with O/T and super on top - the rest are on costs and a margin for the company owner. AWE are sitting at $67K a year - that's around $32hr - so don't confuse pay rates for charge out rates they are not the same. If someone is charging out at their pay rate then super, workers comp, liability insurance and so on are probably not being paid. That's not good for them and not good for the customer either IMO.

Bloss how did you work you figures... as most contract companies would work on 1920 standard billable hours in a working year?

I agree with Moondog; the 3 trades I have used up here all charge no more than $55 per hour inc GST (still $96k + GST) on the book as the owners of their own businesses...less for cash or mate rates. I talked to my my uncle he's built quiet a few homes down in Adelaide he pays on average $42 inc GST for most trades and my mates (own there own building compainies) in Melbourne seem to be the most expensive at $60p/h.

Australia seems to rate as some of the highest pay rates for trades on the planet...not sure if this is fueling the silly house prices in some states ....lets hope the economic forecast for a housing bubble burst aren't true.

[bec29]

Update

Got another sparky around to give another estimate on house rewire. The sparky came highly recommended by a friend. I was so thrilled with how professional the sparky and his "off sider" were. They did inspection of house, checked for earth stake (got one of those :2tsup:) and what was even better, was that they were local (like the first sparky). They are very knowledgeable about the wiring of the houses within my street (done a few already - all built same year, or there of) and he believes it should be a straight forward rewire - Well, maybe nothing too scarey anyway!.
The quote/estimate came back pretty much spot on with other sparky's quote, but they gave me some very good cost saving ways in regards to my kitchen reno - where as other sparky did'nt mention.

They will be doing my kitchen reno (electrical side) and came in at $800 cheaper than other sparky.
I'm stoked but i'll feel better when i see the quote/estimate infront of me.

[bec29]

Also forgot to mention. They will be putting in a report straight away to electricity company in regards to the line pole on street, that comes onto my house. Its not looking very good - quite low and a bit ragged. This is the electricity's responsability

[andy the pm]

Good work Bec,

I got 3 quotes for my place, i provided a plan with all sockets marked out on it to make it easy for them. I didn't pick the cheapest but they all came in around $9.5k but that included $1.5k for a new private power pole and new meters etc. It would have been cheaper if they couldve used a gooseneck on the verandah but due to trees (which I wouldnt cut down) and the fact the verandah is being replaced at some point it had to be a power pole...

Andy

[andy the pm]

I agree with Moondog; the 3 trades I have used up here all charge no more than $55 per hour inc GST


Geez, I wish I could find a tradie round here for $55, the plumber I used charges $75 and rounds up to the nearest hour....rogues, the lot of them...

[Ben Hansberry]

moondog ever heard of break even
I'm an one man band electrical contractor with an apprentice if i were to charge as you said $55, by the time I paid all taxes portion, insurances, vehicle expences, advertising, down time in the office, work clober, super, telephone expenses if i have missed any you get the idea. I would be worse of than working on wages. Considering I if were to work in the mining industry I could be earning $65.00 per hour with all my penatlies on a 9 on 6 off roster. you are deluded.
Regards
Ben

[chrisp]

I'm an one man band electrical contractor with an apprentice if i were to charge as you said $55, by the time I paid all taxes portion, insurances, vehicle expences, advertising, down time in the office, work clober, super, telephone expenses if i have missed any you get the idea. I would be worse of than working on wages. Considering I if were to work in the mining industry I could be earning $65.00 per hour with all my penatlies on a 9 on 6 off roster.

I'm not sure that comparing mining industry rates with electrician's rates (or trade rates in general) is a valid comparison?

From the ABS "Average Weekly Earnings" (May 2010) 6302.0 - Average Weekly Earnings, Australia, May 2010 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/6302.0May%202010?OpenDocument),

For the Mining industry, the Male Weekly "Full-time adult total earning" is $2,133.30

Compare this with:
"All Industry" average of $1,404.60,
"Construction" $1,445.90
"Retail Trade" $1,029.00
"Wholesale Trade" $1,284.20
BTW, I'm not conversant enough with ABS data to know which category domestic electricians would be slotted into.

Using Jago's 1920 hours/year and 52 weeks per year (yep, I know it is approximate), the hourly figures are:
Mining: $57.78 / hour
All Industry: $38.04
Construction: $39.16
Retail Trade: $27.87
Wholesale Trade: $34.78

Also, from the ABS notes, "It is calculated before taxation and any other deductions (e.g. superannuation, board and lodging) have been made." so taxes, super, etc are still to be deducted from these figures. i.e. The "take home" is less.

(Who knows, maybe this thread will be in the The DEBATE & TECHNICAL DISCUSSION AREA (http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/) before we know it. :- )

[jago]

I'm not sure that comparing mining industry rates with electrician's rates (or trade rates in general) is a valid comparison?

From the ABS "Average Weekly Earnings" (May 2010) 6302.0 - Average Weekly Earnings, Australia, May 2010 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/6302.0May%202010?OpenDocument),

For the Mining industry, the Male Weekly "Full-time adult total earning" is $2,133.30

Compare this with:
"All Industry" average of $1,404.60,
"Construction" $1,445.90
"Retail Trade" $1,029.00
"Wholesale Trade" $1,284.20
BTW, I'm not conversant enough with ABS data to know which category domestic electricians would be slotted into.

Using Jago's 1920 hours/year and 52 weeks per year (yep, I know it is approximate), the hourly figures are:
Mining: $57.78 / hour
All Industry: $38.04
Construction: $39.16
Retail Trade: $27.87
Wholesale Trade: $34.78

Also, from the ABS notes, "It is calculated before taxation and any other deductions (e.g. superannuation, board and lodging) have been made." so taxes, super, etc are still to be deducted from these figures. i.e. The "take home" is less.

(Who knows, maybe this thread will be in the The DEBATE & TECHNICAL DISCUSSION AREA (http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/) before we know it. :- )


Its not mine... but as a former Account Director Management Consultant with 40+ contractors working for me 1920 hours is a standard contractor formula hours based on 40 hour week x 48 weeks because of public holidays and min holidays. Although when writing contracts 26 weeks is always 6 months ...extra cash!!!:2tsup:

I have quoted this before 90% of statistics are rubbish including this one...averages are just that average!

BTW domestic sparkies should be put under the ABS title ..dont move much unless they get a zap!:hpydans:

[elkangorito]

If you wish to voice your opinion about tradesman's rates, the following thread is still open:
http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/going-rate-sparkie-77395/

I draw your attention to the following post. Please note that some of the links are now dead:
http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/going-rate-sparkie-77395/index5.html#post770598

[iconnect]

I'm not sure that comparing mining industry rates with electrician's rates (or trade rates in general) is a valid comparison?

From the ABS "Average Weekly Earnings" (May 2010) 6302.0 - Average Weekly Earnings, Australia, May 2010 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/6302.0May%202010?OpenDocument),

For the Mining industry, the Male Weekly "Full-time adult total earning" is $2,133.30

Compare this with:
"All Industry" average of $1,404.60,
"Construction" $1,445.90
"Retail Trade" $1,029.00
"Wholesale Trade" $1,284.20
BTW, I'm not conversant enough with ABS data to know which category domestic electricians would be slotted into.

Using Jago's 1920 hours/year and 52 weeks per year (yep, I know it is approximate), the hourly figures are:
Mining: $57.78 / hour
All Industry: $38.04
Construction: $39.16
Retail Trade: $27.87
Wholesale Trade: $34.78

Also, from the ABS notes, "It is calculated before taxation and any other deductions (e.g. superannuation, board and lodging) have been made." so taxes, super, etc are still to be deducted from these figures. i.e. The "take home" is less.

(Who knows, maybe this thread will be in the The DEBATE & TECHNICAL DISCUSSION AREA (http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/) before we know it. :- )

I'm not sure these figures above have too much bearing on charge out rates for Electricians, which seems to be the bone of contention in the latter parts of this thread. They are average weekly "wages" which means the amount the employee gets paid and pays taxes on. For a contractor, before he can pay his wages he needs to subtract his overheads which is where the difference is.
I'd also like to point out if a small contractor can use 1920 billable hours for the year he is a superstar. A more accurate (but still very high target) for a small operation is 1664 hours. This is 32 billable hours per week for 52 weeks of the year. Using the figures obtained in the quoted post, for a contractor to earn "the average" ( take the construction figure of $1445p/w from above) wage he would be need to earn $45 per hour for his 32 billable hours. Add in a conservative $30 per hour for overheads and you get the national industry average (sourced from NECA) of $75 an hour charge out rate. This rate is just to obtain parity, without consideration of profit for the company.
I reckon anyone who gets a licensed and registered sparky for less than $75 per hour is getting a bargain.

That's just my 2 cents worth from someone who has just crunched all the numbers to see if it's worthwhile going into business for myself.

regards

Darryn

PS sorry if this has highjacked the intent of the original thread topic but I just wanted to add some comment from "the other side".

[chrisp]

PS sorry if this has highjacked the intent of the original thread topic but I just wanted to add some comment from "the other side".

Darryn,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm more than pleased to hear arguments from "the other side". I'd be interested to hear more about the results of your number crunching.

One poster was comparing working for the mining industry with the earning rate for a self-employed electrician. I dug up those figures from the ABS in an attempt to provide some meaningful comparison - if such is at all possible?

I suspect wages/worth is an emotional topic and we often hear the positive stories of how much certain people are earning whereas we hear very little from other people at the other end of the spectrum. By using ABS figures I was attempting to bring some reality to the debate.

[GraemeCook]

Good Morning Bec

Sorry, I am not a sparky.

We have rental accommodation and use a sparky firm that only does corporate and insurance work - they will not even work on my own house, but investment properties are OK. The MD's explanation was that on investment properties people make a rational decision, but on their own home the are guided by emotions, and he cannot afford the emotional on-cost.

As I and Bloss said before, the critical element is for you and your tradesman to develop an open relationship of mutual trust and respect, and that is to everyones advantage. Neither you nor I nor the tradesman is perfect, we all make occasional mistakes, but most of the time we do a good job. And that is the best we can hope for.

Cheers

Graeme

[Moondog55]

WOW !! This does seem to have opened some wounds! I think the main reason for high tradesmens rates is simple, it is a shortage of good tradesmen. House wiring is relatively simple if you have access too and understand the rules.

I have been waiting 5 weeks now for the bloke I have used to come and replace some dodgy 1950s rubber wiring in the lighting circuits add 2 20Amp lines for the stereo and HT and move a meter box to the front of the house.

Part of the reason for the high rates may simply be that working on old houses is not as easy as wiring up a new house with easy access and there is a lot of work going on.

From looking at our sparkies bills for the last few jobs the first hour seems to be costed at about $155- with every extra hour or part there-off being about half that, at least he doesn't add a margin on goods as some do.