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Wiring domestic ceiling lights

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  1. #1
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    Default Wiring domestic ceiling lights

    Background
    I want to do some basic wiring of ceiling lights (10 amp) before I bring the electrician in to do the complicated stuff.
    I want to create the wiring circuit shown in Fig.1. It contains two light circuits: an existing circuit activated by switch S1 to turn on 3 lights (L1a, L1b and L1c); and a new circuit to be activated by S1 and S2 ie this 2nd circuit wonít be turned on unless the 1st circuit is on.
    Iím using either twin (only between S1 and L1a) or twin + earth. Fig.2 shows the wiring colours and patterns. The Light has 4 connectors (Loop, Earth, 1, 2) as does the Switch (Loop, Common, 1, X). On older switches the 4th connector (shown as X) is missing, while on newer switches it has a removable cover.

    Questions
    1. Are all connectors on the Switch and Light isolated, until bridged by either the switch closing or a light bulb inserted? The reason I ask is because for the new wiring Iím only using twin+earth and would like to use the X connector on the Switch for the earth wires.
    2. Is there a convention on the Switch about whether Active goes into Common or 1?
    3. Similarly, is there a convention on the Light about whether Active goes into 1 or 2?
    4. I'm using the standard bayonet ceiling light fitting - is this what is referred to as a ceiling rose?
    5. Figs.3 & 4 below represent my understanding of a basic light circuit, looping either through the ceiling light (Fig.3) or switch (Fig.4). Are they correct, because I donít understand why connector 1 (in both diagrams) has only 1 wire?
    6. And the biggy Ė is Fig. 1 correct?
    The attached PDF document has the images for the following 4 figures:
    Fig.1: Two light circuits: one activated by switch S1; the other activated by S1 & S2.
    Fig.2: Wiring colours and patterns.
    Fig.3: Basic circuit - Looping at ceiling rose
    Fig.4: Basic circuit - Looping at switch
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
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    Dude, thats not basic and its illegal if your house burns to the ground your stuffed. Get a electrician

  3. #3
    Senior Member skot's Avatar
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    Do you know a sparky that will do the "complicated stuff" and has he agreed to sign off on your work....If you were planning to call a sparky just off the bat, you may find that no one will sign it off.

    A cherub65 said, get a sparky to do the lot on that job.
    I like to make sheep out of timber...WOODEN EWE

  4. #4
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    Questions.
    • Are all connectors on the Switch and Light isolated, until bridged by either the switch closing or a light bulb inserted? The reason I ask is because for the new wiring Iím only using twin+earth and would like to use the X connector on the Switch for the earth wires.
    • No. The switch is a "change-over" type. As a result, you must NOT use the 'X' terminal for earth wires.



    • Is there a convention on the Switch about whether Active goes into Common or 1?
    • Yes. Attach the 'active' to the 'common' terminal. It will be switched between '1' and 'X'. (This is why 'X' can't have earth wires in it.)



    • Similarly, is there a convention on the Light about whether Active goes into 1 or 2?
    • No but using 'logic', it goes into '1'.



    • I'm using the standard bayonet ceiling light fitting - is this what is referred to as a ceiling rose?
    • Yes.



    • Figs.3 & 4 below represent my understanding of a basic light circuit, looping either through the ceiling light (Fig.3) or switch (Fig.4). Are they correct, because I donít understand why connector 1 (in both diagrams) has only 1 wire?
    • Figure 4 is incorrect. It shows earth wires attached to 'X'. Also, to answer your query "I donít understand why connector 1 (in both diagrams) has only 1 wire", look at the diag of the change-over switch. If you still can't understand, I strongly suggest you contact a licensed electrician & under any circumstances, do not touch anything electrical.



    • And the biggy Ė is Fig. 1 correct?
    • No. It shows earth being connected to 'X' on the switches. Active and Nuetral connections are correct.

    Sometimes, 'BP Connectors' are required to join certain wires together because there aren't enough appropriate terminals on a switch or light.

    Attached is a diag of a change-over switch. '1' is the same as 'C' on the light switch. '2' and '3' will be the same as '1' and 'X' on the light switch.

    Post is for information only. The law requires that electrical work be done by a suitably licensed person.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails changeover.jpg  
    Last edited by elkangorito; 13th Jun 2009 at 07:05 PM. Reason: additions, alterations.

  5. #5
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    Gee what a question for your first post ................. , pity nev's gone perhaps he would have helped ,I wonder what your ip address is
    Ashore




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  6. #6
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    Maybe it is Nev. Come back to mess with your brains and prove his thoughts are correct with this type of question......

  7. #7
    Golden Member Gooner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashore View Post
    pity nev's gone perhaps he would have helped ....
    What happened to Nev that he is "gone"?
    I'm no expert, but know enough to be dangerous...
    __________________

  8. #8
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    Hi huon03 welcome to the forum

    I think DIY is great if you know what you are doing.
    It appears that you don't, and snce you want to mess with stuff which can cause great property damage and massive personal injury LEAVE IT ALONE.
    Get an electrician
    This is likely the best advice you have had today.
    By the way the bayonet fittings are called batten holders.

    Regards Bradford

  9. #9
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
    What happened to Nev that he is "gone"?
    I think telling watson to " get with the programe" may have had something to do with it ( I have a funny feeling he couldn't work out that watson is the moderator here )
    And I believe he overstepped the mark over the road but that got deleted so I'll leave that alone, I mean everyone gets a post deleted now and again
    I doubt if he has been banned altogether but given time to cool his heels , which is the way the forum works
    Ashore




    The trouble with life is there's no background music.

  10. #10
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    I'm not a sparkie only a dumb electronic technician, but looking at your pdf diagram fig1. I can't see that your circuit would work the way you want it to. The incoming neutral line is terminated at light L1a and from there goes nowhere, light L2a does not have a neutral connection. If you attempt to connect a neutral line to L2a terminal 2 you'll only blow fuses when you activate the circuit.
    If I was doing this I would use the fig3 basic circuit and take the feed for the second circuit from the L1a batten fitting terminals 1,2 and E, BUT I'm not a sparkie so I don't know it that sort of thing is legal or not.
    I'm all for diy and don't want to be unkind but If you can't follow your own diagram and see that it's not going to work then perhaps its time to call someone who knows, it may not be as costly as you think. Peace of mind is worth a great deal.

    Post is for information only. The law requires that electrical work be done by a suitably licensed person.

  11. #11
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    Thats 1 scary PDF
    when you turn the switch off the case of the light holder goes live

  12. #12
    1K Club Member Master Splinter's Avatar
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    I'm not a big fan of trying to replicate logic gates in 240 volt wiring.

    You can do it, but it will confuse the next tradie trying to work on it, not to mention any non-trades fingers playing with it (even two-way switching confuses people).

    To me, it looks like just another way of putting in an entire circuit that may mistakenly be thought of as 'isolated at switchboard' or 'broken/not working' when it's really just switched off by the previous circuit's wall switch.

    I wouldn't do it like that - just wire it up on the same switch plate as the other lights and do the logic processing by brainpower - it may not be cheaper, but it is much safer.

    I have a few problems with your diagram:

    1) You've said you have 10 amp lights....wow, are you sure you need 2,400 watt bulbs?? You may need to rewire the entire circuit with thicker wire and a new breaker if you have too many of those!!!

    2) Fig 1 shows your additional circuit as coming off light L1a, which means your trickily switched circuit is coming off yet another circuit. See comments about complexity above.

    And more importantly -

    THERE IS NO EARTH CONTINUITY between L1a and S1 which means the entire circuit from L1a onwards has no earth.

    On the basis of your diagrams, I'd say that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU ATTEMPT ANY OF YOUR OWN WORK.

    Also, Fig 2. does not identify what the blue dashed line is.
    And your neutral is not connected to anything else in the circuit at L1a. Not sure what sort of magic is used to get a connection from L1a (terminal 1) to (whatever), but it could be a switched neutral - which is a big no-no. It also looks like you have a dead short between active and neutral on your switches.

    I'm channeling Nev now - Call a sparkie and have him do it.
    DIY electrical wiring to AS/NZS3000 - details here - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

  13. #13
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    I have made a drawing that I think should do the job. If anybody can notice any mistakes, please tell me.

    Some questions for huon03;

    1] What kind & how many lights are you going to use in each light fitting?
    2] Is there any wall or ceiling insulation i.e. fibreglass bats?
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by elkangorito; 14th Jun 2009 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Attach amended drawing - ElecAnswer_rev1

  14. #14
    Eat my shorts Nic0's Avatar
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    Huon Why do you want to use a circuit like this? and where are you using it?
    Collector of cheap throw away tools.

  15. #15
    Mr Sexy Beast dazzler's Avatar
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    HI Houn

    I love DIY but please stop and either diy with low voltage stuff or else get a sparky to do 240v. Life is too short to screw with this. Save your money elsewhere.
    I just love sheepies!

  16. #16
    rrobor
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    Default ceiling lights

    If the power of the light is as someone stated I think I know why he doesnt want a sparky to do the job. As an Electronics tech the wiring is bad due to the power going to the lamp then the switch, not the brightest way to do things. I didnt try to work out if it would work as its just bad and should not be done . Also if you are doing what I think you are doing remember to lag the loft very well as Mr Plod flies over in a helicopter with an infra red camera and your sort of roof glows in the dark and can be spotted miles off.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrobor View Post
    As an Electronics tech the wiring is bad due to the power going to the lamp then the switch, not the brightest way to do things.
    Why is this bad?

  18. #18
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    The lamp socket is always going to have power, let us say that a lamp got smashed, someone switches it off then goes up a ladder to the broken lamp thinking there is no power there, touches the stem hanging out, falls off the ladder and breaks his neck. That is not good. When the switch is in the off position, that, to be correctly wired, the socket must have no power.

  19. #19
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    Right on the money dazzler

    Regards Bradford

  20. #20
    Soldiers Earned Your Right To Free Speech watson's Avatar
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    G'day People,

    Our friend huon03 hasn't logged on since he made that post on the 13th June.
    He hasn't come back to read any of your answers, nor answered my PM's.
    So I think we are just talking to ourselves here.
    Consequently, I'm closing the thread.
    Thanks for your answers and advice.


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