japan black floor disaster

Luisa · #1 30th Dec 2007, 02:24 PM

We recently had our new tas oak floors in the kitchen/living area stained with Feast Watson Japan Black. The floorer followed the instructions by sealing with shellac (french polish) before the final coat using a tung oil based sealant (all feast watson products).

The finish is now peeling off! With every slight knock a bubble forms and the shellac peels off.

The floorer is going to strip it all back and start again but I am petrified the same will happen. I've since heard about this happening to others - apparently black japan is not recommended for high traffic areas.

I love the look of black floors but I want a hard wearing finish - I have three kids and a dog!

Any suggestions for an alternive stain/seal/finish??

Gaza · #2 30th Dec 2007, 02:27 PM

is it an old floor, if so just use black stain then have 2 coats of 2 pac poly over that.

tung oil should not be used in high traffic areas.

Luisa · #3 30th Dec 2007, 02:32 PM

Thanks Gaza - floors are new. Feast Watson say that an inbetween coat of shellac is required. Is this not the case with two pack?

Luisa · #4 30th Dec 2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luisa

Thanks Gaza - floors are new. Feast Watson say that an inbetween coat of shellac is required. Is this not the case with two pack?

Gaza · #5 30th Dec 2007, 02:52 PM

being a new floor i would not recommed using 2 pac poly but there is very good water based polyurthanes that can be used.

if staining the following process occurs
- rough sand
- fine sand
- application of stain (usually feastwatson proof tint with a stain base)
- light buff with polisher
- application of one top coat (i perfer waterbased poly 2 part. ie toby aquamax commerical this is made by feastwaston as well)
- light buff with polisher
- application of top coat.

my recommdation is to conact feastwaston next week ask for a commerical floor coatings rep and speak to them.

sounds like there is major rejection has occured.

no matter what you are doing it needs to be striped back to raw timber.

Luisa · #6 30th Dec 2007, 03:02 PM

Thanks Gaza -

MacS · #7 30th Dec 2007, 03:12 PM

Is the Black Japan a Paint or a Stain.

Was it allowed to throughly dry before the Tung oil was applied?

Brushing Polyurathane is commonly used as a single component coating for floors. Do a search for polyurethane for floors, many use this coating

You could use the the Poly as the sealer for the first coat, thin it down 50% with White Spirits.

Then follow the directions on the can.

Poly, is more durable and chemnical resistant the tung oil finishes.

Good Luck

Gaza · #8 30th Dec 2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacS

You could use the the Poly as the sealer for the first coat, thin it down 50% with White Spirits.

The major brands sell a sealer product commonly know as rapid seal.

sovent based polys are not recommed in Aus due to the changes in mouiter content in the timber floors which dont let them expand and contract. "edge bonding" occurs where boards get glued together.

waterbased floor coatings dont have same problem with edge bonding.

the tung oil refered to as a floor coating is not 100% tung oil it is blend which contains some traces of tung oil, it is more a modifed poly.

MacS · #9 30th Dec 2007, 11:37 PM

Gaza,

That makes sense in some areas, what about the rest of the country.

Polyurethane, both the single and the 2K are the most popular floor coating over here. In fact we have a hybrid that is a water base polyurethane that is very popular now.

durwood · #10 31st Dec 2007, 07:52 PM

I think you could bet money if you redo the floor using the same method you will get the same result. I think the proceedure would be a bit risky on a piece of furniture let alone a floor.

You didn't answer MacS's question whether the Black Japan was a paint or a stain. As it is being suggested you seal it off with shellac I would guess its a varnish not a wood stain. If this is so the shellac is being used to seal it off as the Tung oil is likely to attack the BJ.

Shellac is a good sealer as its thinned with metho which isn't a strong solvent so it will sit on top of the BJ without attacking it but it also has poor adhesion to it as the solvent doesn't key into the surface. Its probably the last thing you need on a floor.

Shellac is also a lousy finish especially if it strikes heat or sunlight. So if the sun can contact the floor or someone puts a hot cup onto it, it will probably react and you will have a mark or worse. The tung oil isnt going to adhere well to the shellac either so all up you are getting three different finishes not used normally with each other and the end result has to be second rate. In industry shellac or any sealer is a cheap or last ditch effort when applying a finish. The end product is always going to inferior than a proper application method.

If it was my floor and the timber was not so new it was suspect of being not properly seasoned I would stain with a proper wood stain ( I assume you want the timber to be black with the grain still showing not just a solid black floor ) and then seal it with a polyurethane either water or solvent based. Another method that could be also used is adding some black polyurethane to clear and see if I can get the black effect I want and then top coat it with straight clear. That way all the finish will be a hard wearing finish with no possibility of peeling or anything else.

Wattyl still make and recommend Estapol, the 7008 2 pack finish has been a proven coating for over 30 years though they also have a water based clear but other brands of paint have similar good products.

A lot of people like the Black Japan wood effect but the same result can be obtained with numerous other black pigmented products with far better serviceability properties.

Dusty · #11 31st Dec 2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by durwood

I think you could bet money if you redo the floor using the same method you will get the same result. I think the proceedure would be a bit risky on a piece of furniture let alone a floor.

You didn't answer MacS's question whether the Black Japan was a paint or a stain. As it is being suggested you seal it off with shellac I would guess its a varnish not a wood stain. If this is so the shellac is being used to seal it off as the Tung oil is likely to attack the BJ.

Shellac is a good sealer as its thinned with metho which isn't a strong solvent so it will sit on top of the BJ without attacking it but it also has poor adhesion to it as the solvent doesn't key into the surface. Its probably the last thing you need on a floor.

Shellac is also a lousy finish especially if it strikes heat or sunlight. So if the sun can contact the floor or someone puts a hot cup onto it, it will probably react and you will have a mark or worse. The tung oil isnt going to adhere well to the shellac either so all up you are getting three different finishes not used normally with each other and the end result has to be second rate. In industry shellac or any sealer is a cheap or last ditch effort when applying a finish. The end product is always going to inferior than a proper application method.

If it was my floor and the timber was not so new it was suspect of being not properly seasoned I would stain with a proper wood stain ( I assume you want the timber to be black with the grain still showing not just a solid black floor ) and then seal it with a polyurethane either water or solvent based. Another method that could be also used is adding some black polyurethane to clear and see if I can get the black effect I want and then top coat it with straight clear. That way all the finish will be a hard wearing finish with no possibility of peeling or anything else.

Wattyl still make and recommend Estapol, the 7008 2 pack finish has been a proven coating for over 30 years though they also have a water based clear but other brands of paint have similar good products.

A lot of people like the Black Japan wood effect but the same result can be obtained with numerous other black pigmented products with far better serviceability properties.

See, this guy's onto it. Well done.

Luisa · #12 2nd Jan 2008, 11:29 AM

You are spot on Durwood - nothing is sticking !! Black japan is a bitumen/tar based product - it is neither pigment nor varnish. It was used a lot in Victorian times- generally around the edges of a room, as a rug would be in the middle. I'm taking your advice - ditching the black japan idea ( i was after a solid black colour, but it's not worth it!) - and going with a regular wood stain - I'll try to get something as dark as possible, and seal with a poly finish. Thanks for all the advice and comments everyone!

Gaza · #13 2nd Jan 2008, 11:51 AM

did the floor sander apply the "black japan".

why did they not know that it would not work.

stain gets the same look as the black japan as i said before, i perfer apply the stain then apply poly not mix the stain into the poly but apply stain then wipping off is more labour than just tinting the clear coat.

durwood · #14 2nd Jan 2008, 03:22 PM

Luisa,

As you are after a solid black colour why not just apply black polyurethane.

Same paint but pigmented to be a true black finish, if you use clear over anything you always run the risk of wearing through the clear to the underlying colour.

Just use black and you have to wear down to the wood.

Polyurethane is a commonly used finish (its the toughest paint available) where ever tough finish is required such as aircraft, boats, etc. Our local cement mixer firm uses it exclusevely on the concrete trucks as it lasts many times longer than any other finish under the harsh conditions its put under.

MacS · #15 2nd Jan 2008, 03:42 PM

I agree, colored Black Poly is the way to go. Its the most durable of the single component coatings.

Not, every supplier has black poly in stock, but many will add the black pigmented colorant into the clear poly, and aggatate them together to make up a Black Polyurethane coating.

Good Luck