Thread: Asbestos

We are just starting an owner builder extension. Hubby started to pull off the cement board eaves and noticed there was a sticker saying small amounts of asbestos were present. The house was built in '81. I called the local demolition guy who was helpful but seemed happy for us to remove and dispose of ourselves, obviously taking the right precautions. He said any amount would be small but my understanding is even a small amount can be dangerous ? I guess I was a bit freaked by it at first and have since had varying feedback. In all, there is only a small amount... probably about 5 sq metres. Has anyone else been in this position and any advice as to how to proceed ?
Many thanks...

Hey Twomonkeys , like the name .
l have fake brick on my place and have just started looking into it myself . We can get away with taking of about the same amount as you around the bottom of the house -then rendering the rest .
l've had different feedback so l haven't touched yet . Some have said do it to the council guidlines and it's safe , others have said don't touch a drop - but l don't drink on the job anyway . Kidden .
Anyway not much help l know but we might find out more from here .
cheers.
Mkc

Iv'e heard that have a hose, with fine spray onto the sheets, will stop any small air born particles. BUT always wear full overalls gloves & mask.

Please don't take this as gospel tho

Normell

DO NOT CUT IT!!!!! Wear disposable overalls and good quality face masks, remove the sheeting as carefully as possible to avoid any particles becoming airborne if possible, Breaking the sheets won't cause much problem and once you have the horrible stuff down dispose of it as per the councils guidelines, remove the overalls and bin them wrapped in plastic...... DO NOT CUT!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with christpho on this (appologies there if i got your name wrong). I have just removed 30sqm from a bedroom at home. Wetting it down is and absolute must prior to romoving the sheets. It should be wrapped up in situ as then it can be moved safely through the house and outside. If its outside then I was told to spray it down with a fine spray as water traps the particles. After that lay it into a dunpster and wrap it as soon as you can. I had the fibro tested and it came back as white asbestos which I was told is the safest (if there is such a thing) of all the asbestos products.:eek:

Would agree with the above, but by '81 the asbestos is in very low quantities. These are the very end of asbestos use and are the sheets produced just prior to eliminating the stuff from building products altogether. The sheets may in fact contain no asbestos at all and should not contain any of the more dangerous end of the spectrum. Despite this it should be handled with care and you can enquire at your council about how to handle the stuff. We have the same product with a house of the same age, it was a surprise to find a sticker on a sheet after removing nearly all the lining of the bathroom. Needless to say some enquiries where made regarding risk which we are told should be minimal, previously I had believed it was an asbestos free house.


John.

Just out of interest .... and I know this would be difficult to answer .... but what level of exposure would be still considered safe?

It just makes me think that the product was used for many years ...... by many people. Did everybody who used a product containing asbestos end up with asbestosis or was it just the people with high levels of exposure?

I still think that it is best to take all measure to reduce exposure but just interested on what level of accidental exposure would be ok.

Sir Stinky

Father in law worked in the electricity industry for years. He hates meeting up with old work mates because there is always another one who has been taken. This stuff does not discriminate. It gets the guys who worked with it all day, the storeman, the tealady or the missus at home washing the overalls.

So it can get people with small exposures. There are probably blokes out there who breathed it constantly with no effects. I wouldn't like to take bets on which camp you belong in. The ante could be a little high.

I just had a whole lot of the stuff removed yesterday by a professional. Blue azzy it was, apparently the worst you can have. I thought he'd be a bit carefull with the stuff removing it but all he did was put a crowbar through the panels and pulled it out and it broke up all over the place. Didn't wet it down either or clean up that well. Bit scaring seeing I have young children etc. Anyway I was in for another surprise...Big white ant infestation and just about to get into the roof timbers phew!!

What level of exposure would be still considered safe?

Simple answer – absolutely zero exposure.
<O</O
Difficult answer – despite there being exposure standards such as 0.1 fibre per millilitre of air, no-one really knows. There are those that stand behind the view that one fibre has the potential to lead to mesothelioma or lung cancer, and then there is the other side who says if that is the case we are all doomed from exposure to normal background exposures such as generated from the old asbestos brake linings. I think the truth lies somewhere in between, albeit skewed cautiously towards the former. Historically asbestos disease, especially lung cancer, has predominantly been associated with high level industrial exposure. It was envisaged some years ago that given the early 1980’s phase out of asbestos that towards 2010 we’d be seeing a marked decrease in asbestos related disease. This is not the case. New cases of mesothelioma have continued to rise, and amongst populations not exposed to heavy industrial mining/use of asbestos. For those who have seen the dreadfully painful results of asbestos diseases the answer is typically simple - it’s not work the risk of taking shortcuts.<O

Stinky - my grandad dies of mesophilioma, but then he was a boilermaker in Perth and they used to work with this stuff all day.

Twomonkeys - perhaps I am a bit over sensitive about this, but why don't you pay someone to come and remove it? I had someone come and remove asbestos - it cost $400 or so, but they closed the room up with black plastic, wet it all down with water mixed with pva and took it all away. Best money I ever spent I think.

Trav

Coming from an insurance perspective with bulk data being aggregated over a long period of time, so far, the percentage of people exposed to asbestos who go on to develop mesothelioma is actually suprisingly low, 10-15% however in that 10-15%, even very slight exposure can result in disease. This number is likely to change a bit over time, however exposure may not necessarily be the death sentence made out in the media considering how widespread usage of asbestos was.

Regardless, 15% is the chance of dying in the first round of russian roulette. Anyone played that? At least you wouldnt feel any pain unlike mesothelioma.

Spraying with a dilute PVA solution will bond surface fibres safely even after the board dries out again. Dont use power tools for anything. Punch nails through the board to get sheets off as safely as possible without breaking them. Punch the nails well into the timber beneath, seal with pva solution and leave them there rather than try to pull them out. Dont just wear a mask, wear a respirator class P1 or P2 and spray the area with pva solution after you have finished your clean up.

Cheers
Ben

Couldn't agree any more with Wildman. Full protective gear, only takes one fibre to spoil your life!! Keep everything moist to keep dust to a mimimum, spray panels with dilute pva to lock fibres down after removal, wrap in heavy duty plastic and seal up asap. The cleanup is an absolute must, all dust must be removed, any rags used must be wrapped up in plastic and disposed of.

As for PPE disposable overalls and respirator. Dispose of the overalls and respirator cartridges at the end as for the panels and rags.

Cleanup and disposal are the really important steps that are often forgotten in the whole process.

Keep kids away during the process, I know they like to watch distruction but this time its completely out of the question.

Ever thought of getting a qualified person to do the job, I did, best $1000 I ever spent.

Good luck.

OK... second attempt .

Thanks so much for your replies. Very helpful. Yes, I did look into professional removal but we don't have anyone local. I spoke to the nearest operator who visits from time to time and he was helpful but very much indicated it was something we could do on our own (he works mostly with government authorities). He gave us some good pointers, most of which have been covered in this post.

I am now quite concerned about the amount of sheeting we have around the house and I cringe :eek: just thinking back to the bathroom reno we did some 5 years ago and how we handled the cement sheeting (completely ignorant then).

Is it worth getting it all removed (ie. for us the rest of the eaves, a carport, shed, laundry etc) or is it best to leave well and good alone.

Thanks again..... cheers

Originally Posted by deanp

I just had a whole lot of the stuff removed yesterday by a professional. Blue azzy it was, apparently the worst you can have. I thought he'd be a bit carefull with the stuff removing it but all he did was put a crowbar through the panels and pulled it out and it broke up all over the place. Didn't wet it down either or clean up that well. Bit scaring seeing I have young children etc. Anyway I was in for another surprise...Big white ant infestation and just about to get into the roof timbers phew!!

that DOES NOT sound professional to me!! whiteants are the least of your worries if there's blue fibres in the house now...

Sounds like better to be safe than sorry with everything l've been able to find out and now this thread .
Frustrating - l poped one panel off so easily , l used a long handled shoval to stand clear , l could so easily pop of the rest and don't have removal in the old budget . l have a row around the bottom of the whole house l have to remove but there would also be some cutting on afew corners needed which sounds like big no no .

Thanks for advice guys.
Cheers

Dear two monkeys:

You have another option depending upon what exactly you wan tto do and that is asbestos abatement treatment. The company I work for sells a product that is sprayed onto the asbestos, bonding the fibres into the surface, which can then be removed far more safely, though usually where possible its recommended not to disturbe asbestos, it *is* bad. Get in touch via personal message if you want more details

Originally Posted by twomonkeys

OK... second attempt .

Is it worth getting it all removed (ie. for us the rest of the eaves, a carport, shed, laundry etc) or is it best to leave well and good alone.

Generally, if the sheets are in good nick and sealed with paint then there is absolutely no need to remove them. Keep them sealed and leave them alone unless they are on your list of modifications to the house.

While everyone is wary of asbestos fibres there is no problem with sheets in good nick, the problem is when you have to drill into it or remove it. Fibro is an excellent cladding, just be aware of it when any changes are made.

Cheers

Thanks Rob

I thought as much, but good to hear it from someone else ! I reacon hubby wouldn't be too happy if I insisted it all get demolished either . The sheets are in good condition but we'll be doing a second bathroom reno down the track and will replace those at the time. All the other's will be left in place.

Cheers

Just make sure you take all the safety precautions when you get into the bathroom job and all should be well. Just stress that the cleanup is really important, its no good using respirators and all that if the place is left full of dust for when you have no breathing gear on.

Cheers

Originally Posted by womble

that DOES NOT sound professional to me!! whiteants are the least of your worries if there's blue fibres in the house now...

DeanP,
Bloody good thing that you are a suicidal single bloke and have no kiddies now that your house and grounds are contaminated..... bloody glad I'm not your neighbour too! Oh, and I don't think the whiteants will be killed by the asbestos......

Originally Posted by deanp

I just had a whole lot of the stuff removed yesterday by a professional. Blue azzy it was, apparently the worst you can have. I thought he'd be a bit carefull with the stuff removing it but all he did was put a crowbar through the panels and pulled it out and it broke up all over the place. Didn't wet it down either or clean up that well. Bit scaring seeing I have young children etc. Anyway I was in for another surprise...Big white ant infestation and just about to get into the roof timbers phew!!

Firstly,:mad: I'd report the so-called pro to the authorites ASAP. What he's doing is like having unprotected sxe if you're an aids carrier.:eek:
There are now national guidelines in place based on Victorian Legislation (which, thanks to the union movement, there is world leading) and which regulate the removal and disposal of white, brown and blue asbestos. There are severe penalties for cowboys and DIYers who deal with the stuff as you describe.
Secondly, get a real professional in to your place do an environmental assessment. You cannot now dispose of the property in good conscience knowing that it is now dangerously contaminated.
Collex are an accredited company for dealing with asbestos removal and disposal. Most if not all local councils have guidelines and accredited disposal centres especially for asbestos.
Thirdly, if you are living in a house contaminated by (blue) asbestos and you are in your thirties and you continue to live and breathe there you will die from mesothelioma or asbestosis sometime in the next 25 to 40 years and it aint't pretty mate. My uncle went from diagnosis to death in 3 weeks. He looked perfectly healthy until the day he died but his lungs were solid crystal (metaphorically speaking). He worked part time on the docks 40 years ago unloading bags of asbestos lagging.

Despite what people might tell you, asbestos comes in all different colours and products. Over 2000 different products in fact. It can be virtually any colour, and can not be identified by colour alone, but 3 types are most common.
Chrysotile - "white" asbestos.
Crocidolite - "blue" asbestos.
Amosite - "white" asbestos.

In my time with a company I used to work for I found Chrysotile to be the most common form found. Of course there are other types as well.

Asbestos products cannot be identified by sight alone. To identify it it needs to be put under a microscope - period!

The latency period to developing mesothelioma, or asbestosis, is usually 30 to 40 years, so if you do inhale the stuff, then you're not going to have a clue for a long, long time. Just remember, it's the stuff you can't see that does the damage, not the bits of dust floating around the room.

The national exposure levels (standard) for asbestos fibres are 0.1 f/mL (fibres per millilitre of air).

Now, there are many myths about this stuff, and it does cause a huge panic, but to be absolutely certain, if your house was built after 1990, you can just about guarantee it won't contain any asbestos related products. Before that, you should assume that any cement sheet product will contain it. Better to be safe than sorry.

The thing is that this stuff was used for all sorts of things, from lino, to the glue used to stick the lino down! I've been into Power stations, and even an old American tug boat that was formally used to push aircraft carriers around to remove this product. It's in just about everything. I actually just finished getting a heap of it out of a Hospitals' roof space (not a fun job in the tropics).


Anyway, I hope my first post here was at least a little informative. I've left plenty out on this topic, including control measures and whatnot else...but if you've got any questions on the stuff feel free to PM or email me.

Reading the posts brings to mind the question of contamination on any property that has asbestos sheeting installed.

If you ever watch a building site a lot of the excess products used are dumped on the property around the building. These days they mainly dump straight into bins but back 20-30 years ago it was just piled high around the site for long times.

So with all this talk about contamination of the site I suspect its to late the site was contaminated when the building was built.

In regard to the cowboy removal of the asbestos it would be good to get him to adjust his work practices particularly that you are paying a premium for his services but I would be very carefull which rabid dog(council or other authorities) you complain to as the end result may be worse than the problem. The council can actual condem your site and declare it uninhabitable.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Eastie

What level of exposure would be still considered safe?
<O</O
Difficult answer – despite there being exposure standards such as 0.1 fibre per millilitre of air, no-one really knows. There are those that stand behind the view that one fibre has the potential to lead to mesothelioma or lung cancer, and then there is the other side who says if that is the case we are all doomed from exposure to normal background exposures such as generated from the old asbestos brake linings. <O

Being a smoker significantly increases the hazzard of exposure.

Have a licensed professional do it.

I think it's the luck of the draw! My Dad worked for CSR Building Materials and had a lump of blue asbestos on his desk as a paperweight for 30 years and had no ill effects. 40 years ago I was cutting fibro with a friction blade on a circular saw, every exposed bit of skin covered in the white powder, no-one knew anything about the dangers (or did they?) From what I've heard, asbestos plus cigarettes = big trouble. So far, no airpipe cancer, only waterpipe!
Cheers
Graeme

Originally Posted by rrich

Being a smoker significantly increases the hazzard of exposure.

No studies have been done, so nobody knows anything about whether or not smoking increases, or decreases, the risk of it.

All that is known is that if you get mesothelioma or asbestosis, then you're as good as dead.

It's also 'thought' that asbestos cause forms of lung cancer, but nothing is really known, or proven there either. It's just presumed asbestos can cause cancer.

Most of us have been exposed to asbestos sometime in our life ...to get it professionally removed is very costly and can involve a lot of red tape..if someone says don't worry about it or don't care themselves doesn't mean it isn't dangerous..but what the heck..u gotta die of something!!

Hey Boilermaker thanks for renovating an old thread and letting me get somthing off my chest.

A couple of weeks ago I spent the week removing old bluey using the recommended precautions. There's heaps of worksafe guidance for OBs and home owners. It definately takes a bit more time, care and a few bucks.

Imagine my surprise when a "professional" builder (mentioning no names but they bust space apparently) started this week on next doors reno. No protective clothing, busted the sheets with a hammer - dust all over the place, lined a skip with plastic but only sealed it with a token length of tape so the wind got into it. The owner's happy to pick up the chunks he can see but it the micro sized bits he (and we) need to worry about.