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Double powerpoint with light switch wiring

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  1. #1
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    Default Double powerpoint with light switch wiring

    I'm trying to re-wiring my crappy/dodgy wirings in my gargage with proper wirings (thicker).
    Also trying to clean up the connections (powerpoints & light switches). I plan to use double
    powerpoints with light switches whereever I can (refer to attached photos).

    I know I have to bridge the connections in the back of the powerpoints to the light switch
    connections but which to which?

    Naturally, powerpoint has Active (red), Neutral (black) and Earth (green),
    the light switch has 1, 2 (closed off), loop & C (see third photo). So which
    goes with which?

    Cheers

    PS I know how to play it safe
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails p1060813.jpg   p1060816.jpg   p1060817.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by adbert View Post
    I know I have to bridge the connections in the back of the powerpoints to the light switch
    connections but which to which?
    Not necessarily correct. That GPO is designed to have a separate light circuit as there are other types that have all the bridging built in. Now if you do the bridging in this GPO the wiring to the light has to be the same size as the power circuit and you then have to label the protective device as a mixed circuit not just power. If you use this as an entirely separate light circuit switch with no connections to the power circuit you can use lighter cable.

    Which way do you want to go and is it surface mounted?

  3. #3
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    Now I am not an electrician but do all my electrical stuff. If you want to do this sort of thing you need a multimeter. But in saying that, the way you plan is not the way to go. Wire your place if thats your thing but consider what you do.
    What you will have is one circuit with light and power combined. Now when you use tools in a workshop, you must have something to protect you. If you are stuck across power without a cut out, chances are you aint going to make it.
    Now saying that lets assume you do have protection and you trip that. Withought lights you have issues getting to the power panel. So no dont do this, you need to separate light from power. In my joint I can trip the main breaker, if this happens I have a cheap motion senser which gives me light.

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    Why are you using gpos with switches?

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    Oh man, this is just too scarey.

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    Thanks all for speedy replies. I'm not a sparky so excuse me for the terminology or how I explain myself.
    Let me describe the wiring situation in my gargage. The wirings were badly done from previous owner.
    They mixed power and light wires together. So when I use high wattage, the light wiring cannot cope with
    the wattage, my circuit breaker from the mains will break/shut/cut off.

    I'm planning to re-wire the power wires (to powerpoints) to proper power wire size (thicker). The wire to the
    lights (smaller/thinner) will remain. At the same time, I want to combine the powerpoints and switches for convenience.

    Initially, I thought these double powerpoints are interconnected in the back between the power and light connections
    but I openned one up before and they're not. So I assume I'll have to bridge them.

    Bros,
    I'm not re-wiring the light lines/wires, so they're smaller than the power lines/wires. The powerpoints are mounted on
    the brick wall.

    rgcam,
    Not an issue for me. My gargage has plenty of natural light. Naturally, at night time will be a different story.

    LinesElectrical,
    For convenience. Looks tidier.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by adbert View Post
    They mixed power and light wires together.
    Thats fine it is a mixed sub circuit if done correctly

    Quote Originally Posted by adbert View Post
    I'm planning to re-wire the power wires (to powerpoints) to proper power wire size (thicker). The wire to the
    lights (smaller/thinner) will remain.
    Yes and no as I said you can do this but the switch must have no connection with the GPO circuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by adbert View Post
    Initially, I thought these double powerpoints are interconnected in the back between the power and light connections
    but I openned one up before and they're not. So I assume I'll have to bridge them.
    As I said before some are some are not depending on what you want to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by adbert View Post
    I'm not re-wiring the light lines/wires, so they're smaller than the power lines/wires. The powerpoints are mounted on
    the brick wall.
    So there is no need for bridging. GPO's mounted on a brick wall on a mounting block needs some skill in having the right wire lenght and being able to get it all in the mounting block without breaking any of the conductors and be long enough to terminate.
    Unfortunately I cannot give any more advise as it is not a simple job and I would advise you to contact electrician

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    I always believe that when people believe in what they are going to do, then thats OK. It does not detract from your wings which it seems you are determined to achieve.
    Now my final post on this is. Do not do this. If you mix power and light, its a no win solution. As a guy who wished a workshop with power, my first need was, if I stuffed up I was not dead. I work alone and yes I have tripped the power more times than I can recall. But Im still here, Im still a nuisance to all around.
    I knocked a bit off my finger a few weeks ago doing exactly what I post not to do. So look at being tired, the end of the day, and other detractions. And fix for those. Your idea is not the best. In the dark what will you trip over.
    If you are fixing, do it once, do it well. Dont do the crap job you are planning.

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    I'm with ringtail on this one......as for those giving advice I'd be scared of litigation should this guy fry himself.....my advice, get a sparky mate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevoh741 View Post
    I'm with ringtail on this one......as for those giving advice I'd be scared of litigation should this guy fry himself.....my advice, get a sparky mate!
    I find I have to reply to this. I ask why post this. If you cant add, what is the point. Please, if you have information, tell us. But to try this crappy fright thing is nonsence, it impresses nobody. Australia has probably the strictest codes in the world and even so, our safety record do not reflect that. Please look at reality.


    ADMIN COMMENT: Go to The Debate area to discuss codes and adherence to the same. This just clutters up the OP's query with crap and unsupported opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rgcam View Post
    I find I have to reply to this. I ask why post this. If you cant add, what is the point. Please, if you have information, tell us. But to try this crappy fright thing is nonsence, it impresses nobody. Australia has probably the strictest codes in the world and even so, our safety record do not reflect that. Please look at reality.
    Thats right, We do have some of the strictest codes in the world. And you are breaking every one of them by doing it yourself. I can understand people doing their own plumbing - plumbing never killed anyone, but electrical, c'mon mate, get a sparky, for every ones safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    Thats right, We do have some of the strictest codes in the world. And you are breaking every one of them by doing it yourself. I can understand people doing their own plumbing - plumbing never killed anyone, but electrical, c'mon mate, get a sparky, for every ones safety.
    Sorry but again this is scare tactics. If the shed/workshop is wired to one light and one powerpoint via a plug in line, then whatever the home owner wants to do after that is his business. So please do not try to frighten people into employing tradespeople. My house passed code, I dont know how. Wires trailed over rafters etc. My Cooker was installed by a gas plumber who sat the foot of the cooker on a copper gas line. Please dont tell me tradespeople work to code.


    ADMIN COMMENT: Go to The Debate area to discuss codes and adherence to the same. This just clutters up the OP's query with crap and unsupported opinions.

  14. #14
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    Well, if you were in New Zealand (you know, that place that we share AS/NZS standards with), where DIY electrical work is allowed....

    The four terminals on the light switch are C for common, Loop (which is not connected to anything, it's essentially a spare terminal that the neutrals get connected in) 1 and 2 - which are the poles of the switch.

    C is where the power comes in, 1 usually takes it to the light, it comes back in the neutral which is connected in the loop terminal. See diagram and download the rest from the link in my sig.

    one-way-lighting-circuit.jpg
    DIY electrical wiring to AS/NZS3000 - details here - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

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    darryn iconnect's Avatar
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    I just spent the day rewiring a burnt out switchboard at a premises where the previous owner thought he had a good idea about general wiring. The current owner was about 30 min from having a major fire destroy a significant portion of his home.
    He is now looking at legal action against the previous owner to recoup the cost of rectification and damages. This isn't meant to be scare tactics just the truth about what can happen when you don't fully understand what you are playing with.
    Darryn

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    Thanks all for your replies. I know where you're all coming from. I know I'm playing with fire here
    I do have a (qualified) sparky mate but he's so busy I can't get hold of him for now.

    I do have automatic safety switches/circuit breakers (newly installed). I trust they'll stop me from being fried

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    Quote Originally Posted by iconnect View Post
    I just spent the day rewiring a burnt out switchboard at a premises where the previous owner thought he had a good idea about general wiring. The current owner was about 30 min from having a major fire destroy a significant portion of his home.
    He is now looking at legal action against the previous owner to recoup the cost of rectification and damages. This isn't meant to be scare tactics just the truth about what can happen when you don't fully understand what you are playing with.
    In the USA the homeowner can get every detail of how to wire, what to do and every other aspect of how a job should be done. It is then their choice as how to proceed. Their rate of disaster is no greater than Australia whilst their system is more complex.
    In every trade you come across people doing things where you shake your head at the folly. But this is not people who ask. This is the hothead who knows. People who ask deserve a descent answer, not this rubbish of fear tactics. If all you can do is say no, is your view worth reading? People have a right to know, no trade should be a taboo hidden from the sight of the ordenary guy.


    ADMIN COMMENT: Go to The Debate area to discuss codes and adherence to the same. This just clutters up the OP's query with crap and unsupported opinions.

  18. #18
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    Ahhhh. Ringtail in regards to plumbing never killed anyone, ever heard of Vitas Geuralitis...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgcam View Post
    People have a right to know, no trade should be a taboo hidden from the sight of the ordenary guy.
    The trade is not a taboo hidden from sight. It's a four year course that anyone can do, and it's usually a requirement that anyone carrying out electrical work undertakes such a course.
    Just because people ask a question it doesn't mean they will get the correct answer for their particular request, as every electrical installation will differ and an answer that may be good for one situation may not be so good for another. Warning people of this is not scare tactics it's just being responsible. Ignore it if you don't like it, but to me it may save someone a lot of heartache in the future. As has been discussed in previous threads you can tell if someone is out of their comfort zone by the type of question they have asked, and realizing this and telling them politely to seek a professional to assist should be regarded as a valuable contribution.
    Darryn

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    Anyway, I do have two of these powerpoints already installed at my place (by qualified sparky). I'll open them up
    and see how they're wired behind pictorially.

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    1. Keep lighting and power separate. i) previous post - trip power due to mishap and still have light, ii) lighting uses much less power than your power circuits.
    2. Even though they're in the same 'gang' - the plate that you mount on the wall - refer to point 1. The light switch is completely separate and could be (but out of your preference isn't) elsewhere on the wall.
    3. GPOs are easy - 3 wires, no problem.
    4. If you don't understand the light switch, get a multimeter and play around with it. Set the meter to ohms or 'beep', touch the probes together (switch closed), take the probes apart (switch open) then get familiar with your switch. Then your circuit.

    I think you mentioned tripping on overload? Upgrading cables doesn't solve this problem - you'll need to upgrade a circuit breaker. Respectfully, the foregoing is pretty simple, but if it's not something you're actually competent at, upgrading a breaker is probably not something you should attempt.

    There are many ways to come unstuck. You could make a simple wiring error and energise the earthed chassis on your fridge, you could do the same with a fluoro light and get nuisance tripping, you might swap neutrals between lighting and power and get nuisance tripping, if you choose to upgrade your breaker because the cabling didn't solve the problem you might casually drop a sweaty finger on the unprotected side of a circuit breaker, rightly or wrongly you could be fined for doing the work, etc.

    I remember one of the many guys who taught me had a T-shirt, white, with black writing on it:

    There is NO substitute for knowing what you're doing.

    I don't care about the rules, the parochialism, litigation or anything like that but, as you ask for advice, DO you know what you're doing?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by plum View Post
    Ahhhh. Ringtail in regards to plumbing never killed anyone, ever heard of Vitas Geuralitis...
    The tennis player ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iconnect View Post
    As has been discussed in previous threads you can tell if someone is out of their comfort zone by the type of question they have asked, and realizing this and telling them politely to seek a professional to assist should be regarded as a valuable contribution.
    Exactly what forum policy is, and has been for a long time.
    New posters still get the Warning and Disclaimer Notice......or if you'd like I'll put it back up permanently and annoy everybody.

  24. #24
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    That's right ringtail, Vitas died as a result of an incorrect installation of a pool heater by a bloke who thought he new what he was doing.

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    The issue with my gargage electricity connection is it's all wrong from the
    start (from previous owner). The electricity connected to my gargage was from
    the LIGHT line of the house (one line only). This one source of power was used
    for BOTH power & light in the gargage. The house & gargage are two separate buildings.
    I reconnected the electricity to the gargage from the power line (how it should be
    connected).

    Even now, if the circuit breaks, both power & light in my gargage will be lost since
    they came from just one source.

    It makes no difference now how I wire my lights in my gargage now. Unless I have a
    separate/dedicated light line from the house for the lights.

  26. #26
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    For your own safety what you should have is a small sub panel in the garage. In this way you can then split your power line into two and have trip devices for both. When you are working alone in a garage you need extra protection.
    To have your power and lights together is not good, it takes away from your protection and looks like home owner work.
    For the few dollars extra, split the power and lights. My first suggestion was to buy a cheap multimeter I still think you should. For $10 or so you could test that fitting to see if A is connected to the middle switch. If not, then the middle switch could be used as a switch and still be isolated from the power.

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    rgcam,
    Your advice is perfectly makes sense. I do have a multimeter. I'll
    check/find out everything about this combined powerpoint with
    light/fan switch before I put one in.

  28. #28
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    Running power and lights together is quite common for a small detached garage and the like. This is simply a 'mixed' circuit.

    By the sound of it, the OP has a detached building that was supplied with light/s only. It seems that subsequently a power point has been fitted to the light circuit.

    The light circuit is likely to be 1mm2 or 1.5mm2 cable and probably not suitably rated for a power outlet. The only real problem at the moment seems to be the tripping as it is easy to exceed the trip rating of a lighting circuit breaker (usually 8A or 10A) when it is used behind a power outlet.

    To install a proper mixed circuit, the cable from the switchboard needs to be rated for power (usually 2.5mm2) rather than lights. The cable running to the light in a mixed circuit also needs to be power rated cable (i.e. 2.5mm2 rather than 1mm2).

    Simply changing the switch arrangement and the cable to/from the original light point to the power point won't fix the problem.

    The circuit breaker can not be up-rated without all the cable being feed from it being up-rated too. This would probably involve up-rating all the lighting cable in the house.

    The easiest fix would be to have a separate power feed to the power point (and restore the light to a light-only by removing the existing power outlet), or having a new mixed circuit ran from the switchboard.
    No laurels to rest on

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    Quote Originally Posted by plum View Post
    That's right ringtail, Vitas died as a result of an incorrect installation of a pool heater by a bloke who thought he new what he was doing.

    Well, according to google


    The cause of death was first given as a heart attack, which only fueled the speculation about drug use. Then came a revelation that was, perhaps, even more shocking: An autopsy disclosed that Gerulaitis's blood contained lethally high levels of carbon monoxide, a deadly gas that police said had leaked from a faulty propane heating and air-conditioning system. Particularly insidious because it is odorless and colorless, carbon monoxide is the leading cause of poison deaths in the U.S., killing 5,000 people a year. Gerulaitis may simply have returned to the gas-filled cottage, been overcome by drowsiness and died.


    If its on google it must be true

  30. #30
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    Of course it is.......Aunty Google doesn't tell fibs

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    Sure google must be right, I'm more inclined to believe the coronial inquest, finding that the gas pool heater had been installed by a pool technician, and had installed an external unit in a basement adjacent to where Vitas stayed for the night. Obviously the pool tech did not have the knowledge of regulations, the pool heater even was supplied with a flue kit, but unfortunately, Vitas died as a result of someone attempting to do work they should not of been contemplated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    The light circuit is likely to be 1mm2 or 1.5mm2 cable and probably not suitably rated for a power outlet.
    Spot on (in the gargage only).

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    To install a proper mixed circuit, the cable from the switchboard needs to be rated for power (usually 2.5mm2) rather than lights.
    This is exactly what I'm planning to do (in the gargage only).

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    The cable running to the light in a mixed circuit also needs to be power rated cable (i.e. 2.5mm2 rather than 1mm2)
    But not this. I plan to leave the light cables as they are (in the gargage only).

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    The circuit breaker can not be up-rated without all the cable being feed from it being up-rated too. This would probably involve up-rating all the lighting cable in the house.
    If the circuit breaker can be up-rated to 10A+ (from the mains), I would up-rate the circut breaker for JUST the power line that connected to the gargage ONLY and leave the rest untouched. Since my two light lines
    (in the house) have their own circuit breakers.

    Basically, from the mains I have two power lines (and two circuit breakers), two light lines (with their own circuit breakers). One of the power line is connected to the house AND gargage where
    both power & lights are used. This power line is on the correct size until it's connected in the gargage where different wire sizes are used everywhere. Don't you think if the circuit breaker is up-rated on this line,
    it should solve the problem of overload the amps? The other lines are irrelevant since they're on their dedicated circuits (and not connected to the gargage).

    Anyway, sounds more complicated than I thought. I'll leave it for now and get advice from a qualifed sparky mate on his next visit (after his inspection). I may get him to put in a new delicated power line (with its own circuit breaker) to the gargage.

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    The normal rating for protective device is power 20A and light 16A so from what you are saying you have 10A for the power which includes the shed which is to low. Remember as I said before if you are going to use a mixed sub circuit all the wiring has to be in 2.5mm same as used for all the power circuits.
    Personally I hate mixed sub circuits as it causes all sorts of installation problems but just my opinion.

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    Been watching this unfold with great interest over the last couple of days and finally figured that I might as well throw in my two bob's worth.

    Without wanting to insult Adbert or add fuel to the fire, my first reaction was "not going to answer this, he doesn't know enough to keep out of trouble". As my Old Man used to say... a little bit of knowledge is dangerous, especially if you don't know what you don't know. The give-away was Adbert wanting to know what terminal was what. By inspection , the light switch is a normal light switch, cable size hasn't anything to do with the breaker tripping, increasing the power cable doesn't fix anything unless it goes back to the board etc.

    Telling someone how to replace a switch or GPO is fine by me, mucking around with the switchboard and circuit configurations starts to get into NO-NO land.

    So, good decision Adbert. Get some help from your Sparky friend, you are probably playing around beyond your ability. I know we all think that electricity is benign (we can't see it, so it must be!) but if you have seen a chunk of someone burnt away through a shock, or accidently got yourself hooked up, you will know it isn't. Hence the law (right or wrong) that says if you aren't qualified, then don't touch. Read and absorb what Chrisp had to say, then talk to your mate. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    Oh man, this is just too scarey.
    Agreed and it just went downhill fast from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkyt View Post
    Without wanting to insult Adbert or add fuel to the fire, my first reaction was "not going to answer this, he doesn't know enough to keep out of trouble". As my Old Man used to say... a little bit of knowledge is dangerous, especially if you don't know what you don't know. The give-away was Adbert wanting to know what terminal was what.
    For anyone to post here they are not qualified and need some information. Now that isn't a bad thing as I am prepared to give advise which mostly can be found in AS 3000. I will not give any advise like red goes here black goes there etc as that would be well out of their depth and could well get them into trouble and me if it was taken to the limit but I will give enough advise so they know what they are talking about when they see an electrician and also understand what the electrician is telling them. I am careful not to give enough advise for them to get into trouble.
    One of the reasons I regularly ask for photo's is the written word from the poster bears little or no resemblant to what they are saying. In addition is can take many posts to get the full story.

    The law weather you like it or not is you must be an electrical worker to do any electrical work in Australia, NZ, US, UK China etc might have different laws but we are in Australia and like it or not we are bound by the laws here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinesElectrical View Post
    Agreed and it just went downhill fast from there.
    Another answer not worth posting. I worked on electrical stuff in my workshop and yes I have a string of qualifications and was a member of the ETU. This guy is not an idiot, he wants to find out, why treat him like a fool. Chrisp is a sparky, if he answers, he gives a fair answer. No one is telling this guy he should do this, that is his choice, point out his pitfalls and direct him from disaster by all means, but save us from the trembles and ghost stories.

  38. #38
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    rgcam,
    This has all been done before on here.....and others before you have tried this and gone the way of the great unwashed.
    So just knock it off.......or go back to your original username and we'll take it from there.
    Get my drift.

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