Australian energy supplies

**Smurf** · 26th Mar 2017, 12:13 AM

A few random comments:

So far as feed-in rates are concerned, they are generally based with reference to wholesale electricity prices. Yep, the power stations get stuff all, no more than a quarter of what you pay for electricity at home, and the FIT in most places reflects that. In case you're wondering who does get your money - that would be networks (most of it) and the rest for retailers, GST and so on. But there's not a lot of money being made in power generation that I can assure you.

Hence why even the more engineering focused generation companies such as Snowy Hydro and Hydro Tasmania have both acquired retailers, they really couldn't afford to just be generating and selling wholesale and not to the public. Red and Lumo are both owned by Snowy. Momentum Energy is Hydro Tas retail in Vic, SA, NSW and parts of Qld.

But things are changing. Playford B, Northern, Anglesea, Morwell, Redbank, Munmorah, Swanbank B power stations are all gone and the shutdown of the huge Hazelwood station gets underway on Monday next week. Suffice to say this is pushing prices up and in a big way - future hedge contracts have more than doubled and it's getting close to being triple what they were.

It follows that if this remains the case then it's only a matter of time until both residential power prices and FIT rates reflect that increase.

So ideas about diverting solar power into things like water heaters aren't going to look so good once the FIT goes up as it almost certainly will. Things like heat pump water heaters start to look a much better option rather than using your own, now far more valuable, solar to run an inefficient electric HWS instead of feeding it into the grid.

Exactly what happens and when is hard to predict but it's only a matter of time until a retailer sees a commercial advantage through gaining customers by increasing their FIT to reflect where the wholesale market is going. And once one does it, the others will likely follow.

So bear that in mind. At the wholesale level prices are going up in a big way. Those power stations still operating are, for the first time in a long time, actually making money now (seriously, the general public would be truly amazed at how the finances have been in the industry until now - you might be paying a fortune for power but it sure hasn't been going to the generators that I'm extremely sure of!).

Can you have a hybrid system using the grid as backup?

I'm not sure of the rules everywhere but in Tas you can use the off-peak tariffs (61 or 62) for battery charging if you want to. Just need the battery charger to meet electrical regulations etc and be hard wired (can't be plugged in since no power points are allowed on the off-peak tariffs). But you could certainly use solar + off-peak charging if you wanted to.

I'm pretty sure that Qld has a similar approach, at least they did not long ago, and will let you do the same. Not sure about any other state.

Also in Tas if you've got grid-connected solar then it's worth considering using Tariff 93 which replaces your present 2 or 3 meters (Light & Power, Heating, Off-peak if you have it) with a single meter with time of use pricing. That means you'll be using your own solar power to heat water, with the fallback if there's no sun being that water will be heated at the off-peak rate provided that you set a timer to limit water heating to between 10am and 4pm Monday to Friday (plus 9pm to 7am if you want to) and all day on weekends. That gets around the problem of not being able to use your own solar to run a HWS that is otherwise heated off-peak or on the heating tariff (Tariff 41 also known as HydroHeat). This should also work nicely for anyone with an electric vehicle - just charge it overnight, of an afternoon, or anytime on weekends.

So it's potentially a good deal BUT the catch is a relatively high price during the peak times (7am - 10am and 4pm - 9pm Monday to Friday) - that wouldn't be such a good idea for those who use a lot of power during that time (eg at work all day and have electric heating) but is worth looking at for those home during the day or who don't use electricity for space heating (eg they have wood, gas etc).

Some other states have gone down a rather complex and costly track with time of use pricing. In Tas the approach is to keep it as simple as possible. Only two rates, peak and off-peak, with 128 hours every week at the off-peak rate, 40 hours at the peak rate, and both the actual times and price charged are fixed with no regular variations. NT is pursuing a similar "keep it as simple as possible" approach although the actual times are different to those in Tas. In both cases it's entirely voluntary, you can keep the regular tariffs if you want to, but the idea is to make the TOU option good enough that consumers will actually want it without being forced.

**Smurf** · 26th Mar 2017, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by ringtail

I don't know if the authorities have allowed a grid tied / island thing here yet.

Not sure about other states but no problem in Tas as long as it meets electrical (technical) requirements.

Any such installation will receive a visit from an official Electrical Inspector to make sure it's up to scratch but the onus there is on the installer should any problems be found - they'll get the kick and orders to fix it not the home owner.

Main thing the Inspector will be worried about is to ensure that there's no possibility of power being fed back into the grid during a blackout. So long as that criteria is met, no issues with it as a concept.

**Marc** · 26th Mar 2017, 08:33 AM

A tragic state of affairs you are describing there Smurf, making it very obvious that the spectre of global warming was invented and bandied around for economical gain besides obvious political gains.
Taking refuge in inefficient hobby like energy production system that are sold at 10 times their real value, because they are percieved as advanced and green, is absurd in an age of efficiency and real technology in a country that is selling top quality fuel to the rest of the world. Japan is building 40 new coal fired stations to be fuelled with our top quality coal. And we, the consumer who funds everything, who pays for everything the government does, have to power our houses with pathetic low tech systems to avoid paying extortion money to the local mafia.

**woodbe** · 26th Mar 2017, 09:44 AM

Marc, you're running off the road.

The problem is not with the public, the problem is with the governments. Our country's power system has a large swathe of ancient power stations that have, or are closing down, but there has been no clear direction.

Back in 2011 many added an 'inefficient hobby like energy production system that are sold at 10 times their real value'. We did that for our own home as well. Sure, the cost of PV was high partly because the retailers had added a large profit margin but also because PV production costs were higher than now due to increasing volumes and better production.

We are delighted with our inefficient hobby! Our PV has been more reliable than the grid, it has never faulted on its own. It's power production has exceeded our home consumption, the cost of our system has been completely paid by the massive savings (and FIT) and it continues to put money in the bank.

For someone wanting to do similar today, all that is required is a PV and a battery because the FIT is lower now. Just as before with PV panels, battery pricing is falling. As Smurf tells us, the FIT will increase but so will the retail price, so we would need to push a lot more power into the grid than what we consume. The margin between FIT and retail cost will pay for the PV and battery system over time.

No-one is offering to build a coal fired power station in Australia. There is a reason for that. There is no support to increase greenhouse gas emissions.

**phild01** · 26th Mar 2017, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by woodbe

We are delighted with our inefficient hobby! Our PV has been more reliable than the grid, it has never faulted on its own. It's power production has exceeded our home consumption, the cost of our system has been completely paid by the massive savings (and FIT) and it continues to put money in the bank.

Is that a big set-up, or you hardly use electricity! And is it the 60 cents kW community funded subsidy. I would like to see how installing PV today can repay itself in short term before the panels wear out. To me it's a bit like the illusion of supermarket rewards cards.

I like the idea of solar power, I like it to be practical.

**sol381** · 26th Mar 2017, 11:04 AM

Agree.. I doubt now that there is hardly any FIT that solar panels will pay for the themselves without Storage capabilities.

**Bros** · 26th Mar 2017, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Smurf

But things are changing. Playford B, Northern, Anglesea, Morwell, Redbank, Munmorah, Swanbank B power stations are all gone and the shutdown of the huge Hazelwood station gets underway on Monday next week. Suffice to say this is pushing prices up and in a big way - future hedge contracts have more than doubled and it's getting close to being triple what they were.

Not only will they push up prices but they will have serious impact on system inertia.

**woodbe** · 26th Mar 2017, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by phild01

Is that a big set-up, or you hardly use electricity! And is it the 60 cents kW community funded subsidy. I would like to see how installing PV today can repay itself in short term before the panels wear out. To me it's a bit like the illusion of supermarket rewards cards.

I like the idea of solar power, I like it to be practical.

A bit of both. Our home is a large stone home in the SA hills. We cop high and low temperatures, the max amount of energy required is for heating, not cooling.

When we asked for a quotation for solar from three retailers, we were asked for our power bills and the solar quotes were delivered to equal the annual dollars. I knew the cost of power would rise, so I asked for an annual kWh neutral system and that is what we installed.

Power cost is escalating regardless of the claims of the current federal government that it was reducing. The cost of solar PV is falling. However, you ask that installing PV today will repay itself in short term is not a fair question. A solar PV system has a life of 20+ years. If we look at our annual PV energy consumed before export, 30% is consumed direct and 70% is exported. Yes we have a benefit from taking up the offer from the government at the time. Not as radical as the NSW and ACT offers though. If the 70% is tipped into a battery then we would basically have a minimal yearly cost from the grid.

A current 5kW system costs around $5000-8500. Well over $20k back then.
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/panels/cost/

Current kWh cost of battery systems

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/batte...parison-table/

Already, the most economical battery systems are even with the grid!

So the basics are there:

1) The cost of power from the grid is continuing to rise
2) The cost of installing PV is continuing to fall
3) The cost of battery backup for the home is falling

Short term, or you cannot decide: You pay through the nose for power. Do your best to minimise consumption.
Mid term around 5-10 years: You will probably come out even with a PV/Battery system.
Longer term: You will be well ahead.

**Marc** · 26th Mar 2017, 02:12 PM

I like solar power ... what does that even mean? Successive governments have spent trillions of dollars of our money in energy production and now are throwing it all away because of an ill conceived con of "carbon pollution".
What's next? We are polluting the sea, so lets go back to septic tanks and a backyard dunny can?
Isn't that great! I poop in a can and fertilize my tomatoes, perfect environmental cycle. We are at the forefront of idiocy.

**woodbe** · 26th Mar 2017, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Marc

I like solar power ... what does that even mean?

Solar energy arrives at our planet from the sun 149.6 million km away and delivers energy at the approximate rate of 1000w per square metre for all of us, if we are willing to harness it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight

**phild01** · 26th Mar 2017, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Marc

I like solar power ... what does that even mean? Successive governments have spent trillions of dollars of our money in energy production and now are throwing it all away because of an ill conceived con of "carbon pollution".
What's next? We are polluting the sea, so lets go back to septic tanks and a backyard dunny can?
Isn't that great! I poop in a can and fertilize my tomatoes, perfect environmental cycle. We are at the forefront of idiocy.

Irrespective of any kind of pollution, yes I like solar power, but as I said it needs to be practical i.e. has a neutral or cost benefit without comparing it to artificial rises in the cost of energy.

I am yet to be convinced that the battery systems are practical and I don't hear much about their cycle life.
Is it too hard to come up with an efficient 'solar to hydrogen' stored power?

**woodbe** · 26th Mar 2017, 03:38 PM

Artificial rises in cost of energy? The cost of energy to the people of the country is the actual cost they have to pay. Whilst we we may disagree with the changes in the cost of power, we actually have to pay for it.

UBS: Tesla Powerwall can deliver 6-year payback in Australia : Renew Economy

The headline conclusion of the UBS team is that the Tesla Powerwall – the 7kWh version – will deliver an economic return. They estimate at an IRR (internal rate of return) of 9 per cent. That represents a pay-back of about six years. If they are right, then that means that mass-market adoption ain’t so far away as some would believe, and incumbent utilities might wish.

I think the above battery system from Tesla has had an upgrade, so these figures may be out of date but as previously mentioned, the cost of power is rising and the alternative option costs are falling.

Edit: Update on the Powerwall v2:
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/tesla-powerwall-2/

So this particular battery is good for 10 years

**Marc** · 26th Mar 2017, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by phild01

Irrespective of any kind of pollution, yes I like solar power, but as I said it needs to be practical i.e. has a neutral or cost benefit without comparing it to artificial rises in the cost of energy.

I am yet to be convinced that the battery systems are practical and I don't hear much about their cycle life.
Is it too hard to come up with an efficient 'solar to hydrogen' stored power?

I don't know about solar to hydrogen, but I know about coal to the grid. We have heaps of coal. We also have heaps of uranium. I find it outrageous that the citizen is left to fend it for himself because governments are too busy pandering to fallacious trends and busy selling everything that is not bolted down.

**woodbe** · 26th Mar 2017, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Marc

I find it outrageous that the citizen is left to fend it for himself because governments are too busy pandering to fallacious trends and busy selling everything that is not bolted down.

As a citizen we are generally sucked dry by government utilities many of which have also been sold off so we are sucked dry by companies with a tick by the Government.

Rarely do we get an opportunity to claw back a benefit. Solar PV is one of the few and the biggest opportunity we citizens we have. It's out of the box now, and very difficult to put it back in.

In 2015, 15% of all households had PV on their roof. Good for us!

**Bros** · 26th Mar 2017, 04:03 PM

I don't where the electrical grid is going in the future and I don't think anyone else knows but as it is now we are on our way to hell in a handcart.

We can talk all about solar and it's energy but there is no way currently around replacing the inertia by taking these large generator off line.

South Australia had a taste of loss of system inertia when the interconnector tripped.

Gas (if you can get any) will help inertia but the generators have to be on line to be of any use. Pump storage will also help but again they have to be in generating mode as when it is needed it all happens in milliseconds not in minutes but very few people understand inertia and the role it plays.

If industry doesn't get reliable power they will go elsewhere in the world and it may make some fell good but CO2 pollution here has been shifted to India which lives in the same atmosphere as us.

**METRIX** · 19th Feb 2018, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

I believe that the Fukushima disaster so far is just the tip of the iceberg. The missing cores will continue to emit gamma radiation for centuries to come, possibly poisoning all sea life in the Pacific Ocean and beyond eventually.

The Japanese are way in over there heads but are too proud to ask for assistance and the rest of the 1st world are too greedy to fund what it's going to take to clean it up.

What I don;t understand is the attitude of some who say we should abandon Solar, and Wind in favour of "clean" Nuclear energy, saying the new reactors are much safer then one of the past BS.

I don't care how safe they say these things are, the underlying problem is humans are stupid and greedy, and when these things go wrong they always go wrong in a big way which cant be fixed by simply flicking a switch and turning it off.

**Marc** · 19th Feb 2018, 08:12 AM

The only cheap and safe source of energy that works all year around is coal and hydro. Surprised that both are opposed by the skinny single vegetarian mob on the dole?

**METRIX** · 19th Feb 2018, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Marc

The only cheap and safe source of energy that works all year around is coal and hydro. Surprised that both are opposed by the skinny single vegetarian mob on the dole?

Agree, I also believe we should all have solar on our roof, to help provide power during the day and ease the load on the power stations, with the look to building no more power stations

The addition of batteries is a good idea in the home, not necessarily Lithium ones as they pose an environmental problem for mining the lithium, but something like Aquion batteries which are based around saltwater, and can be completely recycled easily.

Problem with the above scenario is the gov't are too tied up with petroleum and coal industry, so they don't offer any incentives for this to happen, hence why solar rebate systems in AU are one of the lowest worldwide.
At it's peak the solar rebate system only served the rich who could afford the initial outlay, then they got a hefty rebate, and large feedback tariffs.

http://aquionenergy.com/technology/deep-cycle-battery/

**Marc** · 19th Feb 2018, 09:13 AM

Yes, Matrix, I understand what you say but to ask the individual to "help" the powerstation is an admission of incompetence. Power is an essential service like hospitals and transport and the rest. Should be at the forefront of technology and reliability and not at the whim of political alternatives and small little marginal minorities that scream with a higher pitch.
if you live on Moreton island, you have solar and batteries and wear the cost because the alternative is a diesel generator. If you live in Sydney you should be able to plug in a modern strong 365/24 network that can take anything you throw at it because it is the base for all the economy.
As it is, we have incompetent government who wash their hands and sell everything and try to please all the potential little mobs who vote the fad of the day and then ask the consumer to "contribute" with batteries and solar panels that cost a bomb. It is the equivalent of the bus driver that asks the passengers to go out and push the bus.

**Bros** · 19th Feb 2018, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by METRIX

Agree, I also believe we should all have solar on our roof, to help provide power during the day and ease the load on the power stations

Uneconomical now.

**phild01** · 19th Feb 2018, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by METRIX

Agree, I also believe we should all have solar on our roof, to help provide power during the day and ease the load on the power stations,

Aren't power stations in full swing when the sun doesn't shine! However I agree do what can be done to use the sun's energy in the best practical and economical ways. Solar panels should have started with commercial properties before housing.

This graph doesn't mean much to me. Is it per capita and what about China's and the US etc manufacture of solar panels for the rest of the world, does this slant their showing!?

**METRIX** · 19th Feb 2018, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Marc

Yes, Matrix, I understand what you say but to ask the individual to "help" the powerstation is an admission of incompetence. Power is an essential service like hospitals and transport and the rest. Should be at the forefront of technology and reliability and not at the whim of political alternatives and small little marginal minorities that scream with a higher pitch.
if you live on Moreton island, you have solar and batteries and wear the cost because the alternative is a diesel generator. If you live in Sydney you should be able to plug in a modern strong 365/24 network that can take anything you throw at it because it is the base for all the economy.
As it is, we have incompetent government who wash their hands and sell everything and try to please all the potential little mobs who vote the fad of the day and then ask the consumer to "contribute" with batteries and solar panels that cost a bomb. It is the equivalent of the bus driver that asks the passengers to go out and push the bus.

I'm not asking the individual to help out, I'm saying the gov't should offer high $$ incentives for this, not only will it create jobs but will allow us to minimise our dependencies on fossil fuels for the long term.

To show you how far our gov't is out of touch, the last decent solar scheme offered, they allocated a certain amount of hundreds of millions for rebates saying this would last 5 years worth of installations, to their surprise (no surprise) the amount of money was chewed up in under 2 years, so they put a stop to it, then dropped all the feed in tariffs to levels that the industry or consumer could not sustain or justify the installation cost, so no surprise the solar industry basically closed shop overnight.

This should have shown them that the average consumer is actually interested in doing their bit to help, but instead the gov't look at it as oh well we didn;t allocate enough money for that, so lets go build another coal fired station.

The main problem with the gov't running schemes like this is they put in place idiots to run the schemes like the insulation debacle, these idiots don't keep tabs or regulate the procedures then you have all the scumbags come out of the woodwork who rip off the scheme.

Now let's look at what thes useless politicians earn, don't see anyone on here on less then $199K, yes I understand if they worked for private enterprise they could earn more, but im sure most of them wouldn't because they are useless, and we wonder why they are out of touch with the average hard working Australian.

Name	Constituency	Party	Position which Affects Salary	Total Salary (one position)
Mr Adam Bandt MP	Melbourne, Victoria	Australian Greens		$199,040
Senator Lee Rhiannon	New South Wales	Australian Greens		$199,040
Senator Larissa Waters	Queensland	Australian Greens	Chair of a Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Senator Sarah Hanson-Young	South Australia	Australian Greens		$199,040
Senator Nick McKim	Tasmania	Australian Greens		$199,040
Senator Peter Whish-Wilson	Tasmania	Australian Greens		$199,040
Senator Richard Di Natale	Victoria	Australian Greens	Leader of a recognised party of at least 5, and no more than 10, members of Parliament	$283,632
Senator Janet Rice	Victoria	Australian Greens		$199,040
Senator Scott Ludlam	Western Australia	Australian Greens		$199,040
Senator Rachel Siewert	Western Australia	Australian Greens	Whip in the Senate of a recognised party of at least 5, and no more than 10, Senators	$216,954
Hon Kate Ellis MP	Adelaide, South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Senator Katy Gallagher	Australian Capital Territory	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Catherine King MP	Ballarat, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Linda Burney MP	Barton, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Mr Ross Hart MP	Bass, Tasmania	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon David Feeney MP	Batman, Victoria	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Ms Lisa Chesters MP	Bendigo, Victoria	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon Shayne Neumann MP	Blair, Queensland	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Jason Clare MP	Blaxland, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Ms Justine Keay MP	Braddon, Tasmania	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Ms Madeleine King MP	Brand, Western Australia	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Mr Julian Hill MP	Bruce, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of the Joint Statutory Committee on Public Accounts and Audit	$214,963
Mr Matt Keogh MP	Burt, Western Australia	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Ms Maria Vamvakinou MP	Calwell, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$209,987
Ms Gai Brodtmann MP	Canberra, Australian Capital Territory	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$209,987
Hon Ed Husic MP	Chifley, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Hon Richard Marles MP	Corio, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Dr Anne Aly MP	Cowan, Western Australia	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon Sharon Bird MP	Cunningham, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Ms Emma McBride MP	Dobell, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon Dr Mike Kelly AM, MP	Eden-Monaro, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon Dr Andrew Leigh MP	Fenner, Australian Capital Territory	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Mr Chris Hayes MP	Fowler, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Chief Opposition Whip in the House of Representatives	$244,819
Hon Julie Collins MP	Franklin, Tasmania	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Mr Josh Wilson MP	Fremantle, Western Australia	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$209,987
Mr Tim Watts MP	Gellibrand, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Hon Brendan O’Connor MP	Gorton, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Anthony Albanese MP	Grayndler, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Ms Michelle Rowland MP	Greenway, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Ms Terri Butler MP	Griffith, Queensland	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Ms Cathy O’Toole MP	Herbert, Queensland	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Mr Steve Georganas MP	Hindmarsh, South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Hon Anthony Byrne MP	Holt, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$209,987
Ms Clare O’Neil MP	Hotham, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Hon Joel Fitzgibbon MP	Hunter, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Mark Dreyfus QC, MP	Isaacs, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Jenny Macklin MP	Jagajaga, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Matt Thistlethwaite MP	Kingsford Smith, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon Amanda Rishworth MP	Kingston, South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Ms Joanne Ryan MP	Lalor, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Whip in the House of Representatives of an Opposition party with more than 10 members in the House	$222,925
Hon Wayne Swan MP	Lilley, Queensland	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Ms Emma Husar MP	Lindsay, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon Warren Snowdon MP	Lingiari, Northern Territory	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$209,987
Ms Susan Lamb MP	Longman, Queensland	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Mr Brian Mitchell MP	Lyons, Tasmania	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Dr Mike Freelander MP	Macarthur, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Ms Susan Templeman MP	Macquarie, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Mr Tony Zappia MP	Makin, South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of the Joint Statutory Committee on Public Works	$214,963
Hon Bill Shorten MP	Maribyrnong, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Leader of the Opposition	$368,224
Mr Rob Mitchell MP	McEwen, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Second Deputy Speaker in the House of Representatives	$224,915
Hon Chris Bowen MP	McMahon, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Michael Danby MP	Melbourne Ports, Victoria	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Mr Graham Perrett MP	Moreton, Queensland	Australian Labor Party	Whip in the House of Representatives of an Opposition party with more than 10 members in the House	$222,925
Senator the Hon Doug Cameron	New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Senator Jenny McAllister	New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Chair of a Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Senator Deborah O’Neill	New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$209,987
Ms Sharon Claydon MP	Newcastle, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Senator Malarndirri McCarthy	Northern Territory	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Mr Milton Dick MP	Oxley, Queensland	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Ms Julie Owens MP	Parramatta, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Ms Meryl Swanson MP	Paterson, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Mr Tim Hammond MP	Perth, Western Australia	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Hon Mark Butler MP	Port Adelaide, South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Senator Anthony Chisholm	Queensland	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Senator Chris Ketter	Queensland	Australian Labor Party	Chair of a Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Senator Claire Moore	Queensland	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Senator Murray Watt	Queensland	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$209,987
Dr Jim Chalmers MP	Rankin, Queensland	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Hon Justine Elliot MP	Richmond, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Mr Andrew Giles MP	Scullin, Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters	$214,963
Mr Pat Conroy MP	Shortland, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$209,987
Mr Luke Gosling OAM, MP	Solomon, Northern Territory	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Senator the Hon Don Farrell	South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Senator Alex Gallacher	South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade	$230,886
Senator the Hon Penny Wong	South Australia	Australian Labor Party	Leader of the Opposition in the Senate	$313,488
Hon Tanya Plibersek MP	Sydney, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Deputy Leader of the Opposition	$313,488
Senator Catryna Bilyk	Tasmania	Australian Labor Party	Opposition Deputy Whip in the Senate	$208,992
Senator Carol Brown	Tasmania	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Senator Helen Polley	Tasmania	Australian Labor Party	Chair of the Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills	$220,934
Senator the Hon Lisa Singh	Tasmania	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Senator Anne Urquhart	Tasmania	Australian Labor Party	Chief Opposition Whip in the Senate	$234,867
Senator the Hon Kim Carr	Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Senator the Hon Jacinta Collins	Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Chair of the Senate Standing Committee of Privileges	$220,934
Senator Gavin Marshall	Victoria	Australian Labor Party	Chair of a Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Mr Nick Champion MP	Wakefield, South Australia	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Hon Tony Burke MP	Watson, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Shadow Cabinet Ministers	$248,800
Ms Anne Stanley MP	Werriwa, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Senator Patrick Dodson	Western Australia	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Senator Sue Lines	Western Australia	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Senator Louise Pratt	Western Australia	Australian Labor Party	Chair of a Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Senator Glenn Sterle	Western Australia	Australian Labor Party	Chair of a Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Mr Stephen Jones MP	Whitlam, New South Wales	Australian Labor Party	Other Shadow Ministers	$238,848
Mr Peter Khalil MP	Wills, Victoria	Australian Labor Party		$199,040
Senator the Hon Nigel Scullion	Northern Territory	Country Liberal Party	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Senator Derryn Hinch	Victoria	Derryn Hinch’s Justice Party		$199,040
Mr Andrew Wilkie MP	Denison, Tasmania	Independent		$199,040
Ms Cathy McGowan AO, MP	Indi, Victoria	Independent		$199,040
Senator Jacqui Lambie	Tasmania	Jacqui Lambie Network		$199,040
Hon Bob Katter MP	Kennedy, Queensland	Katter’s Australian Party		$199,040
Senator David Leyonhjelm	New South Wales	Liberal Democratic Party		$199,040
Senator the Hon George Brandis QC	Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Leader of the Government in the Senate	$373,200
Hon Alan Tudge MP	Aston, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers (not in Cabinet)	$313,488
Senator Zed Seselja	Australian Capital Territory	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Mr David Coleman MP	Banks, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Mr Tony Pasin MP	Barker, South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr John Alexander OAM, MP	Bennelong, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Julian Leeser MP	Berowra, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Ross Vasta MP	Bonner, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Ms Nicolle Flint MP	Boothby, South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Andrew Laming MP	Bowman, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Hon Paul Fletcher MP	Bradfield, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers (not in Cabinet)	$313,488
Mr Trevor Evans MP	Brisbane, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Andrew Hastie MP	Canning, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Hon Tony Smith MP	Casey, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Speaker of the House of Representatives	$348,320
Ms Julia Banks MP	Chisholm, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Hon Scott Morrison MP	Cook, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Ms Sarah Henderson MP	Corangamite, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Hon Julie Bishop MP	Curtin, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Michael Sukkar MP	Deakin, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Hon Peter Dutton MP	Dickson, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Chris Crewther MP	Dunkley, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Ms Melissa Price MP	Durack, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Hon Stuart Robert MP	Fadden, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties	$230,886
Mr Ted O’Brien MP	Fairfax, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Andrew Wallace MP	Fisher, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Hon Greg Hunt MP	Flinders, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Bert van Manen MP	Forde, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Whip in the House of Representatives of a Government party with more than 10 members in the House	$224,915
Ms Nola Marino MP	Forrest, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Chief Government Whip in the House of Representatives	$250,790
Mrs Ann Sudmalis MP	Gilmore, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Tim Wilson MP	Goldstein, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Rowan Ramsey MP	Grey, South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Whip in the House of Representatives of a Government party with more than 10 members in the House	$224,915
Hon Dr John McVeigh MP	Groom, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Hon Ken Wyatt AM, MP	Hasluck, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Hon Kelly O’Dwyer MP	Higgins, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Craig Kelly MP	Hughes, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Hon Angus Taylor MP	Hume, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Hon Josh Frydenberg MP	Kooyong, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Jason Wood MP	La Trobe, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Hon Warren Entsch MP	Leichhardt, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Mr Jason Falinski MP	Mackellar, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Mr Russell Broadbent MP	McMillan, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of the House of Representatives Standing Committee of Privileges	$220,934
Hon Karen Andrews MP	McPherson, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Hon Kevin Andrews MP	Menzies, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Hon Alex Hawke MP	Mitchell, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Hon Steven Ciobo MP	Moncrieff, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Ian Goodenough MP	Moore, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Senator the Hon Concetta Fierravanti-Wells	New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers (not in Cabinet)	$313,488
Senator the Hon Marise Payne	New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Senator the Hon Arthur Sinodinos AO	New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Trent Zimmerman MP	North Sydney, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Mr Rick Wilson MP	O’Connor, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Hon Christian Porter MP	Pearce, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Mr Luke Howarth MP	Petrie, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Senator the Hon Ian Macdonald	Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Senator the Hon James McGrath	Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Hon Craig Laundy MP	Reid, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Mrs Lucy Wicks MP	Robertson, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Hon Jane Prentice MP	Ryan, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Senator Cory Bernardi	South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Senator the Hon Simon Birmingham	South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Senator David Fawcett	South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Government Deputy Whip in the Senate	$208,992
Senator the Hon Anne Ruston	South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Hon Michael Keenan MP	Stirling, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers (not in Cabinet)	$313,488
Hon Christopher Pyne MP	Sturt, South Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Leader of the House	$348,320
Mr Steve Irons MP	Swan, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Mr Ben Morton MP	Tangney, Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Senator the Hon Eric Abetz	Tasmania	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Senator David Bushby	Tasmania	Liberal Party of Australia	Chief Government Whip in the Senate	$238,848
Senator Jonathon Duniam	Tasmania	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Senator the Hon Stephen Parry	Tasmania	Liberal Party of Australia	President of the Senate	$348,320
Senator the Hon Mitch Fifield	Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Minister in Cabinet who is also Manager of Government Business in the Senate	$348,320
Senator Jane Hume	Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Senator James Paterson	Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Senator the Hon Scott Ryan	Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers (not in Cabinet)	$313,488
Hon Dan Tehan MP	Wannon, Victoria	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers (not in Cabinet)	$313,488
Hon Tony Abbott MP	Warringah, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia		$199,040
Hon Malcolm Turnbull MP	Wentworth, New South Wales	Liberal Party of Australia	Prime Minister	$517,504
Senator Chris Back	Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	“Deputy Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and
Trade”	$214,963
Senator the Hon Michaelia Cash	Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Senator the Hon Mathias Cormann	Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Senator Linda Reynolds CSC	Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters	$230,886
Senator Dean Smith	Western Australia	Liberal Party of Australia	Government Deputy Whip in the Senate	$208,992
Mr Scott Buchholz MP	Wright, Queensland	Liberal Party of Australia	Chair of the Joint Statutory Committee on Public Works	$230,886
Ms Rebekha Sharkie MP	Mayo, South Australia	Nick Xenophon Team		$199,040
Senator Stirling Griff	South Australia	Nick Xenophon Team		$199,040
Senator Skye Kakoschke-Moore	South Australia	Nick Xenophon Team		$199,040
Senator Nick Xenophon	South Australia	Nick Xenophon Team		$199,040
Senator Brian Burston	New South Wales	Pauline Hanson’s One Nation		$199,040
Senator Pauline Hanson	Queensland	Pauline Hanson’s One Nation		$199,040
Senator Malcolm Roberts	Queensland	Pauline Hanson’s One Nation		$199,040
Mr Andrew Gee MP	Calare, New South Wales	The Nationals		$199,040
Ms Michelle Landry MP	Capricornia, Queensland	The Nationals	Whip in the House of Representatives of a Government party with more than 10 members in the House	$224,915
Hon Luke Hartsuyker MP	Cowper, New South Wales	The Nationals	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Mr George Christensen MP	Dawson, Queensland	The Nationals	Whip in the House of Representatives of a Government party with more than 10 members in the House	$224,915
Mr Ken O’Dowd MP	Flynn, Queensland	The Nationals	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Hon Darren Chester MP	Gippsland, Victoria	The Nationals	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Hon Keith Pitt MP	Hinkler, Queensland	The Nationals	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Hon Dr David Gillespie MP	Lyne, New South Wales	The Nationals	Parliamentary Secretaries	$248,800
Mr Andrew Broad MP	Mallee, Victoria	The Nationals	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Mr David Littleproud MP	Maranoa, Queensland	The Nationals		$199,040
Mr Damian Drum MP	Murray, Victoria	The Nationals		$199,040
Hon Barnaby Joyce MP	New England, New South Wales	The Nationals	Deputy Prime Minister	$408,032
Senator the Hon Fiona Nash	New South Wales	The Nationals	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Senator John Williams	New South Wales	The Nationals	Government Deputy Whip in the Senate	$208,992
Mr Kevin Hogan MP	Page, New South Wales	The Nationals	Chair of a House of Representatives General Purpose Standing Committee	$220,934
Mr Mark Coulton MP	Parkes, New South Wales	The Nationals	Deputy Speaker in the House of Representatives	$238,848
Senator the Hon Matthew Canavan	Queensland	The Nationals	Other Ministers in Cabinet	$343,344
Senator Barry O’Sullivan	Queensland	The Nationals		$199,040
Hon Michael McCormack MP	Riverina, New South Wales	The Nationals	Other Ministers (not in Cabinet)	$313,488
Senator Bridget McKenzie	Victoria	The Nationals	Chair of a Joint Statutory Committee or Joint Standing Committee, not otherwise specified (except the Joint Standing Committee on the Parliamentary Library)	$220,934
Mr Llew O’Brien MP	Wide Bay, Queensland	The Nationals		$199,040

**PhilT2** · 19th Feb 2018, 12:20 PM

your list is a little out of date, not that it matters. Because of what i used to do I have had a lot of contact with politicians and have a completely different perspective. You are right that some would struggle if they had to get a real job but that's a minority; many would make more if they quit politics. Some are making more from their family companies and properties than their parliamentary salary. But most, I found, were real people and genuine in their desire to do their job well.

**woodbe** · 19th Feb 2018, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bros

Uneconomical now.

Only if you swap houses very often, or if you are in a position with little sunlight because of large trees shadowing your roof, or larger buildings around you.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/calc5/

If you are a renter, then it hasn't been possible unless the owner is smart. But it is improving over time.

EG: https://www.rta.qld.gov.au/Renting/D...ls/Solar-power

**Bros** · 19th Feb 2018, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by woodbe

Only if you swap houses very often, or if you are in a position with little sunlight because of large trees shadowing your roof, or larger buildings around you.

What do you consider a realistic payback time?

**woodbe** · 19th Feb 2018, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bros

What do you consider a realistic payback time?

In QLD, with 5kW looks to be about 6 years:

7kW and more runs at 5 years.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/calc5/

**Bros** · 19th Feb 2018, 04:32 PM

Maybe for some but on these calcs mine would be 8 yrs, getting marginal investment as most of our consumption is of a night with some at $0.20 some at $0.17 the rest at $0.28. The $0.20 would get used during the daylight for about 20 to 30 days per yr.

I actually got a price for a premium system of $5990 cheapie $5290, then Ergon want $450 to change the meter.

**Marc** · 19th Feb 2018, 06:01 PM

The electricity suppliers are free to pillage and steal, supported by the green lunatics and assorted pushbike riders and vegetarians with the blessing of our first ever pretend liberal PM. This could be the new trend. Infiltrate a party, get elected on that party platform then turn the tables and do what your really believe in that is the exact opposite. Cool.

**Bros** · 19th Feb 2018, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Marc

The electricity suppliers are free to pillage and steal

I wouldn't put it so bluntly but I believe there is some truth in it. A great example is AGL who are retailers of electricity and to take 1200MW out of the system (Liddell) gives me the impression it is just to constrain the system to jack up the retail price.

The feed in solar price in QLD is a reflection of the generation costs and that is $0.10 per KWH whereas the retail price is double that and upwards. I don't believe a generator should be a retailer but it happens in QLD where the government is both but they say they are independent but I don't believe in the tooth fairy.

The prices shown on the net are spot prices and only big companies play with spot prices and the retailers have contracts with the generators. Rio in QLD thought it could do better on the spot market for 120MW but came a cropper as it was greater than they estimated so they had to curtailed some production.

**johnc** · 19th Feb 2018, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bros

I wouldn't put it so bluntly but I believe there is some truth in it. A great example is AGL who are retailers of electricity and to take 1200MW out of the system (Liddell) gives me the impression it is just to constrain the system to jack up the retail price.

The feed in solar price in QLD is a reflection of the generation costs and that is $0.10 per KWH whereas the retail price is double that and upwards. I don't believe a generator should be a retailer but it happens in QLD where the government is both but they say they are independent but I don't believe in the tooth fairy.

The prices shown on the net are spot prices and only big companies play with spot prices and the retailers have contracts with the generators. Rio in QLD thought it could do better on the spot market for 120MW but came a cropper as it was greater than they estimated so they had to curtailed some production.

AGL have announced they will replace Liddell with renewables, I think their preference is wind, what will happen is we will see generator capacity spread far and wide and the very large generators such as the big coal fired units will be a thing of the past. It looks as though generator/grid management will become increasingly complex however we will no longer be subject to shutdowns and brownouts due to the loss of large generators when they fail. It is evolution, we either move with it or fight against it either way progress is inevitable. Coal will make a comeback I reckon but not as a power generator, probably in plastics production, fertilizer and other uses.

**Bros** · 19th Feb 2018, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by johnc

AGL have announced they will replace Liddell with renewables,

Yes they did including upgrading Bayswater and they quoted every amount of renewable technology except hydro so they were just preaching to the green lobby. I find it hard to understand how they can possibility replace 1200MW without forcing up the price of electricity which I believe as they are a retail supplier is their aim.

At the present time Liddell is generating just over 1200MW from three units.

The gov wisely forbid NBN from being a retailer however in the electricity industry they were asleep at the wheel.

**Bros** · 7th Mar 2018, 04:33 PM

Something to think about.Australians are installing more solar power than ever - AM - ABC Radio

**METRIX** · 13th Mar 2018, 08:40 PM

If I did not move every few years a priority would be to install a decent solar system, because total years per house ranges from 2-3 it's not worth the investment as I will never see the benefit of it

When I build my own place up North priority will be to have an either off grid or battery backed system.

**Bedford** · 8th Sep 2018, 07:42 PM

https://www.createdigital.org.au/con...like-fbengaged

**Bros** · 8th Sep 2018, 08:11 PM

If this thread degenerates in to an emissions slanging match the post will be deleted and so will the poster or posters.

**r3nov8or** · 16th Sep 2018, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Bros

A white roof would pale into insignificance now with solar panels that have higher reflective properties.
A friend of mine who lives on a rural block was able together with his neighbours to get a solar farm rejected and one of the objections was reflection.

Your friend and his neighbour sound like dicks

**Bros** · 16th Sep 2018, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by r3nov8or

Your friend and his neighbour sound like dicks

I certainly wouldnt want a 400 acre solar farm on my doorstep.

**r3nov8or** · 16th Sep 2018, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bros

I certainly wouldnt want a 400 acre solar farm on my doorstep.

Yeah right. We reckon we want 'it', sometimes we even need 'it', but always gotta put 'it' somewhere else

**Bros** · 16th Sep 2018, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by r3nov8or

Yeah right. We reckon we want 'it', sometimes we even need 'it', but always gotta put 'it' somewhere else

They are like fracking when it came in looked great sounded great but now people are questioning it. Same with huge solar farms taking up agricultural land where food can be grown.
Have another friend who has signed a lease for a disused piece of cane land for a solar farm but the nearest houses are over 1klm away behind heaps of trees. The land is very close to the 132kv power line but the people proposing the farm have been trying to get finance for 3 yrs but so far are unsuccessful.

**Uncle Bob** · 16th Sep 2018, 12:27 PM

The grid and power generators should all be a Federal Government run enterprise.

**phild01** · 16th Sep 2018, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

The grid and power generators should all be a Federal Government run enterprise.

So should airports and toll roads.

**Uncle Bob** · 16th Sep 2018, 12:48 PM

Take a look at the table on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing called "Global comparison".
Sort it by US cents by kWh descenting and surprise surprise who comes to the top.
Strange how Islands with diesel generators can beat us on price.
Bloody disgusting if you ask me.

**Marc** · 12th Apr 2019, 08:10 AM

In this tense climate of "he said this, she said that", in a climate of hate and spite, envy and bitterness, all in the name of " we know better what is good for you", I thought it would be good to reflect ... removing us from politics as far as possible ... on what is a good source of energy.

Humans need an energy source ... or many rather, to keep warm, cool down, to make things, for light, to cook, to power the car and millions of other things. To say we can do without and go back to live in caves and light a fire and eat grass or kill to eat, might appeal to a small minority in Noosa, Newtown and Tasmania but it is not for the average punter who works, and has a family to look after. Sure there are brave attempts at negating the need for a family or even a defined gender, in the name of progressive thinking, but let us leave that for the closet bound, the bent, the skewed, the bully victim and the odd, and let us reflect on the technical aspect of energy sources.

Since the invention of steam powered machines, and then DC generators and then the supremacy of AC generation, electricity has become the one universal source of energy that humanity needs for everyday life.
However electricity is strictly speaking not a source of energy per se, since it needs to be produced with another source of energy, and it is that primary source that is the focus of my reflection.

Historically we had steam power created by burning different fuels like wood or coal, then with the invention of internal combustion engines diesel generators, then back to steam with coal fired power stations, Nuclear creating yet again steam, gravity pushing masses of water over turbines, and that was it for a while. Sure we always had the odd wooden blade spinning a car dynamo to charge a battery and watch TV.

And then came the photovoltaic cell. From it's invention in 1839 by Edmond Becquerel aged 19, to the 70ties Cherry Hills Conference where it kicked off, the solar cell was always a powerful attraction because it gives free energy from the sun. What better than free energy right?
And let us not forget the humble spinning car dynamo charging a battery. Make it bigger and you have another source of free energy, the wind.

This two "free" sources of energy, solar and wind, from their humble hobby origins have now become a massive industry and a political football. Why political football? Simple. First they produce electricity in an inconsistent manner since the sun does not shine 24/7 and the wind does neither, and we need electricity all the time. Second those sources are so expensive that in order to make them feasible they need massive amounts of subsidies.
And finally they are ... diluted fuel, and so need massive amounts of land to be.

But who would want to pay trillions to hobby like systems, to produce electricity and be able to compete with steam powered generators, that use vastly aboundand cheap coal? There was a need for a stimulant. A reason that would compel politicians to pay tax payers money to subsidise what would otherwise be a rather bad joke.

And so the demonisation of CO2 was born. An invisible and harmless gas, essential for human existence since it is the only bridge between the energy of the sun and the earth via plants, a bit like the photovoltaic cell ... that is naturally 0.04% of the atmosphere and to that humans contribute 3%, so 0.0012% of the atmosphere was the target of such a relentless campaign of repetition that in true United Australia Party fascion, it eventually had an effect. The message is "We must save the planet from human kind"

Of course if "the planet" is under threat from humans the obvious solution is to cull humans, but no one was gutsy enough to say so ... well almost no one, a few did attempt to forward an ideal number, somewhere around 2 billions, to return the balance in nature, but no one proposed a method to kill 4 billions give or take. Well almost no one, Prince Philipp alluded to this by stating that in his next life he would like to return as a virus to cull human kind ... or words to that effect, not that anyone noticed.

So after my rambling introduction to this well known conundrum, I was scouring googleland for someone to make sense and have even a partial view of things from a practical view rather than from a mercenary or vicarian view, and found a surprising revelation from someone who is an environmentalist, lives in california of all places yet has a bit of a revelation to the sun and wind worshippers out there.
I hope you enjoy it.
Or maybe you hate it? Does it matter in this era of everything goes?
The law on non-contradiction seem not to apply in this days of dogmatic tautologies.
In an effort to "save the climate" are we destroying the environment?
Aristotle, eat your shirt!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yA...1xtZ3el0ZsUVgd XemXiYns5InFN9tFlk

**woodbe** · 12th Apr 2019, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Marc

And so the demonisation of CO2 was born. An invisible and harmless gas, essential for human existence since it is the only bridge between the energy of the sun and the earth via plants, a bit like the photovoltaic cell ... that is naturally 0.04% of the atmosphere and to that humans contribute 3%, so 0.0012% of the atmosphere was the target of such a relentless campaign of repetition that in true United Australia Party fascion, it eventually had an effect. The message is "We must save the planet from human kind"

Obviously, Marc you believe there is no issue with burning coal and ignore the effect of adding the coal outputs into the atmosphere.

So out watching the video from Michael Shellenberger, he makes a lot of opinions between wind, solar and other systems and says that Nuclear is safer than Wind/Solar/etc. Ignoring that there has been a disaster at Nuclear power places killing thousands of people and wrecking people who didn't die.

Nuclear power in the global context
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/fact...lear-phase-out

Despite the attention Germany gets, it is not the only country in Europe to phase-out nuclear energy. Italy, Belgium and Switzerland have also principally decided to be or become nuclear energy-free. Others such as Denmark, Ireland, Portugal and Austria will remain nuclear free.

Britain, France, Poland, Finland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary want to keep nuclear power in their energy mix and even plan to build new reactors.
The French government passed an energy transition bill in 2015, specifying that the country will reduce its share of nuclear energy from 75 to 50 percent by 2025 but said in November 2017 that this target was not realistic and would endanger the security of supply.

Japan turned off its 50 nuclear power reactors in the wake of Fukushima, but the government decided in 2014 to start operating reactors again after a security check.
In the United States, all but one of the 99 operational commercial reactors (producing about 20 percent of the total electric energy use) became operational before the year 2000. Since 2012, ten nuclear power station units are under construction, according to the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC).

31 countries operate nuclear power plants. The World Nuclear Industry Status Report 2017 said that global nuclear power generation increased by 1.4 percent in 2016 due to a 23 percent increase in China but the share of nuclear power in electricity generation stagnated at 10.5 percent. It had declined steadily from a historic peak of 17.6 percent in 1996.
The average age of operating nuclear reactors was 29.3 years in 2017. As of July 2017, 53 new reactor units were under construction. While the average construction time is seven years, seven of the reactors have been under construction for more than a decade.

Between 2000 and 2013, global investment in new power plants went mainly into renewables (57 percent), followed by fossil fuels (40 percent), while only three percent of investment was spent on nuclear energy.

This Factsheet was first published in July 2015.
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So yes, there are problems with Nuclear but there will be continuing Solar, Winds, Nuclear, etc, over time to reduce Coal, gas, etc because most people now in the world would like the environment to be better than it is now and not becoming worse continuing using Coal.

**Marc** · 12th Apr 2019, 12:06 PM

Two separate issues and the reason to post an environmentalist video that I would normally ignore or scoff at.

To me ... and history will prove me right most likely in half a century or so when this issue is no longer contentious and we may have found new sources of energy unknown today ... CO2 is not an issue and we could burn coal for another two centuries with no measurable effect on the environment due to CO2. Sure, there are real pollutants we must watch. The CO2 scare mongering was and still is a fraud put forward to shift resources towards an otherwise unfeasible industry.

The argument by Schellenberger is a new one, one that the unbeliever like me can not utter at risk of being lynched by the good citizen with the pitchforks.
Solar and wind are not worth the extra expense, they wreck the environment much more than they portray to solve ... even from the "CO2 is bad for you" believer point of view ... Of course to me it is all a strawman argument in order to drum up business for this new industry that akin to the pink bats and school shelters are being more and more reckless since the end justifies the means. And the means is money for the solar and wind barons of this world.

New nuclear plants are safer than ever and it is the choice of location that makes them even safer. Australia has an extremely stable land with hardly any tremors and a vast amount of uranium that can last us 1000 years.

The reality is that we need large amounts of electricity to have a job, to have schools, hospitals transport and a functioning home, and this large amount needs to be cheap ... very cheap, and demonising consumption and pretending that high prices will somehow "save the planet" by curbing consumption is a fallacy and only makes some billionaires and more poor people. The global warming fraud has achieved nothing in favour of the environment, made armies of middle class people poor, and wrecked the environment it pretends to defend.
Even if I believed the mantra that AGW is measurable ... which I do not ... the method used to reduce CO2 is the wrong one and is doing more damage than doing nothing.
Coal and Nuclear and Hydro are the answers today, not bloody solar and wind.

And to the greens great shame, the damage done to the environment by a dam, compared to a solar farms like in california, that damage would be negligible yet no one open their mouth to the solar farms and the wind turbine, yet people would chain themselves to the bulldozers attempting to build a dam.

The green movement is a demented irrational movement that follows no logic and can not see reason besides their own skewed agenda that most time than not has a completely different target in mind, and it is not the environment.

**DavoSyd** · 12th Apr 2019, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Marc

The argument by Schellenberger is a new one,

he is arguing for is more nuclear generation and less wind & solar - how is that new?

**SilentButDeadly** · 12th Apr 2019, 12:51 PM

The ideological drive for new energy sources or more energy sources often ignored the elephant in the room... which is actually a question: Do we need more energy sources?

Are we making the best and most effective use of the power generation capacity we already have? Is the energy being generated being used efficiently and effectively?

Perhaps it might be cheaper for everyone if we just used what we have much better than we do now?

**Whitey66** · 12th Apr 2019, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly

The ideological drive for new energy sources or more energy sources often ignored the elephant in the room... which is actually a question: Do we need more energy sources?

Are we making the best and most effective use of the power generation capacity we already have? Is the energy being generated being used efficiently and effectively?

Perhaps it might be cheaper for everyone if we just used what we have much better than we do now?

This isn't going to cut it due to the biggest problem we have, but nobody wants to talk about - population explosion.

**pharmaboy2** · 12th Apr 2019, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by DavoSyd

he is arguing for is more nuclear generation and less wind & solar - how is that new?

I don’t think so. He is arguing for more nuclear and more solar and wind, because that’s what it will takes to replace Fossil fuels, though he doesn’t have a lot of love for the other 2 because the carbon ive4 the lifetime is higher than nuclear (excuse if I’m dreadfully wrong, haven’t watched the video recently)

**pharmaboy2** · 12th Apr 2019, 04:10 PM

J

Originally Posted by woodbe

So out watching the video from Michael Shellenberger, he makes a lot of opinions between wind, solar and other systems and says that Nuclear is safer than Wind/Solar/etc. Ignoring that there has been a disaster at Nuclear power places killing thousands of people and wrecking people who didn't die.
l.

That seems to be overstating the death toll from any nuclear power disaster that I’ve seen.

NP is clearly one of the safest forms of energy we have , if you use actual statistics of actual deaths , and not some 1989 paper predicting thyroid cancer that never came to fruition.

the downside of solar and wind, is that technology seems to be moving so fast that plant you install today will be on the scrap heap in 10 or 15 years - not the 50-100 year timeline of nuclear power reactors..

given investments tend to be made in those 15 year timelines, no one seems to care, but if you care about carbon output then a century life cycle means an incredibly efficient form of energy as regards carbon output.

heres the question though - can the conservative right wing be enrolled into this decarbonisation discussion if we include nuclear power as part of the solution?

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