Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #7201
    Member Jack-the-Hammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    I can assure you JTH that I havent even googled snowball earth. My research is my own. I suggest turning over a new leaf that is not a stinging nettle
    Anyone can do a "library" research to search through published literature for information gathering and research and that is a valid research. However, in the context I use in my statement was in reference to original field research such as finding and analyzing geological structures to determine its age and doing chemical analysis of such structures to determine its chemical composition. By doing this, a scientists can gather clues as to what might have happened in the past.

    Have you done any original field research?

  2. #7202
    4K Club Member ringtail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-the-Hammer View Post
    Anyone can do a "library" research to search through published literature for information gathering and research and that is a valid research. However, in the context I use in my statement was in reference to original field research such as finding and analyzing geological structures to determine its age and doing chemical analysis of such structures to determine its chemical composition. By doing this, a scientists can gather clues as to what might have happened in the past.

    Have you done any original field research?
    Does 6 years as a geological field hand count. I may not be boned up on the hard science of it all but I have been around geology for all of my 40 years

  3. #7203
    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    It wasn't about climate science, it was about Government manipulation and control.

    Why else would Chrisp desperately try to steer people away from it?
    Actually, I'm not 'desperately' trying to steer anyone away. I'm just pointing out the site has a has a bad reputation according to the WoT.

    Regarding your comment on 'Government manipulation and control'. It is a well known phenomena. There are many (probably unsubstantiated) examples:
    The federal Liberal Party has changed its position - and leader - on AGW. Could this be the influence of 'big money'?
    In Victoria, the 'green wedges' are looking like being sold - to people connected with the government.
    The former Victorian Government contracted out the desalination and the labour force employed by the contractor got impressive wages.

    The upshot is that there will always be some bias one way or the other in government dealing (and private dealings too).

    With AGW, it is a very very long bow to draw to imply it is the result of 'Government manipulation and control'. Just about every government of the world accepts AGW. These governments are of all political persuasions (left, right, centre, etc.). There are many different scientific bodies all around the world - ALL of then support the AGW theory. It would be near impossible to pull off a deception or manipulation on such a grand scale.

    Furthermore, it only takes one substantiated contradictory piece of evidence to overturn a theory. There has been none so far.

    All the evidence (and there is much) supports the AGW theory.

    If AGW was just a 'manipulation', to first 'whistle blower' would be hailed a hero.

    To me, the general 'conspiracy theory' argument just reeks of desperation.
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

  4. #7204
    Member Jack-the-Hammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    Does 6 years as a geological field hand count. I may not be boned up on the hard science of it all but I have been around geology for all of my 40 years
    If it involves holding up a surveyor's pole or operating a drill then, NOooo!

    Honestly, if we stick to our field of expertise we can speak with some authority otherwise we just look like klutzs and dullards. My degree is in microbiology and biochemistry but that doesn't qualifies me to be an expert in quantum physics.

    BTW I too have been around geology for all my life. In fact I live on a piece of geological structure.

  5. #7205
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-the-Hammer View Post
    Stick to what you know best, your particular trade skills and leave science to those who are qualified.
    Like Tim Flannery right?
    Or those mercenary "scientist" of the e-mails

    Furthermore, who says that the Global Warming fraud is about science? It never was and never will be.
    The "science card" is plaid like the race card or the victim card, only to win time and argumentation.
    The real game is political and that is why everyone should stand up and be counted against global warming fraud, against taxes for fictitious purposes, against any and every green policy conceived from a standpoint of "we know better what is good for you", that said from people who's contribution to productivity and prosperity amounts to their own bodily functions.
    Enjoy present pleasures in such a way as not to injure future ones.
    Seneca

  6. #7206
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Enjoy present pleasures in such a way as not to injure future ones.
    Seneca

  7. #7207
    4K Club Member ringtail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-the-Hammer View Post
    If it involves holding up a surveyor's pole or operating a drill then, NOooo!

    Honestly, if we stick to our field of expertise we can speak with some authority otherwise we just look like klutzs and dullards. My degree is in microbiology and biochemistry but that doesn't qualifies me to be an expert in quantum physics.

    BTW I too have been around geology for all my life. In fact I live on a piece of geological structure.
    Ive never touched a survey pole or been within cooee of a drill rig .

    But surely you have every right to a opinion on all things quantum physics ?

    And thats what its all about. If we all stuck to our respective fields of expertise then neither of us ( and just about everyone else here) should pass comment on this thread. I dont think there is a micro biology / bio chemistry section on this forum but I'm quite sure you would have offered opinions/advice on other threads here. Variety is the spice of life JTH. Could you imagine boring this thread in particular would be if the only contributors were egg heads and lab coats. Right or wrong, a forum is place where anyone, expert or not, can voice a opinion.

    BTW, I dont live on the ground, I hover 6 inches above it.

  8. #7208
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Argue amonst yourselves first to get a "consensus".

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    Nature is continually changing but over the last few thousand years in ways man can adapt to
    So are you saying humans could not adapt prior to the last few thousand years?

    How long have we been here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    what is happening now is that we are damaging the natural cycles and have the potential to make life on earth pretty miserable or possibly unlivable if we don't mend our ways
    Your comrade Jack-The-Hammer says that you're not qualified to have this opinion?

    You need to get permission from him, or are you going to start contradicting him as well.

    Geez, you guys argue amongst yourself a lot.

    He thinks that you need a qualification before you can have an opinion.

    Luckily for you I understand what these words mean and gladly accept your opinion, even if it is based on no facts whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    Neither SBD's or my comments contradict they are simply two approaches to explaining the same thing, something educators do all the time to get a message across.
    So SBD says humans are the only cause, yet you say there are many causes (or contributors).

    One cause Vs Many causes?

    If there is only one, there can be no others. One of you is wrong!

    Unless you believe Jack-The-Hammer, then neither of you are even entitled to have an opinion, so you are both wrong.

    But as this is a philosophical question, he doesn't study philosophy everyday, so by his rules he is not entitled to have an opinion on you two having an opinion, so I guess his opinion doesn't count and both of yours does.

    The question then is whose is right and whose is wrong?

    If you two can't even figure this simple thing out, how can you support a cause that believes increasing TAXES in Australia is going to make the Planet Earth colder?

    But once you guys sort your own position out, I'll happily rebut it.

  9. #7209
    Member Jack-the-Hammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    Ive never touched a survey pole or been within cooee of a drill rig .

    But surely you have every right to a opinion on all things quantum physics ?

    And thats what its all about. If we all stuck to our respective fields of expertise then neither of us ( and just about everyone else here) should pass comment on this thread. I dont think there is a micro biology / bio chemistry section on this forum but I'm quite sure you would have offered opinions/advice on other threads here. Variety is the spice of life JTH. Could you imagine boring this thread in particular would be if the only contributors were egg heads and lab coats. Right or wrong, a forum is place where anyone, expert or not, can voice a opinion.

    BTW, I dont live on the ground, I hover 6 inches above it.
    OPINION 1:
    On the topic of quantum physics. Quantum physics sucks.

    I am using the average joe blow logic to come to this opinion which states that if you don't understand something don't support it, just oppose it. I find quantum physics hard to understand, hence my opinion.

    EDITED POST, JUST TROLLING

    MEMBERS, PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

  10. #7210
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default You're right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    This isn't about climate change
    You got that right! The climate has been changing on this Planet for about 4.5 billion years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    it is about the financial and moral dealings of a member of parliament which has been brought into the public limelight by The Age initially.
    Correct, the member who Chairs the Economics Committee that oversees issues including financial probity, expenditure and various financial bills and legislation for out nation, likely to soon include the Carbon Dioxide Tax legislation that we all will likely soon be paying.

    In summary, the role of the Standing Committee on Economics is to carry out inquiries into matters referred to it by the House of Representatives or a Minister of the Commonwealth Government. Material that can be referred includes any pre-legislation proposal, bill, motion, petition, vote or expenditure, other financial matter, report or paper.

    Mr Craig Thomson MP (Chair) (Australian Labor Party, Dobell, NSW)

    House of Representatives Standing Committee on Economics: Index
    This member's track record appears to be spending lots of working peoples money, then asking those same workers to pay for all the debts he racked up, as indicated by various reports below:

    Abbott is right, of course, in what he told me:


    PRIME Minister Julia Gillard is resisting opposition calls for embattled Labor MP Craig Thomson to be stripped of the chairmanship of a parliamentary committee.
    Ahead of a four-day sitting of parliament, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott on Sunday stepped up his attack on Mr Thomson calling for him to be stood aside from the lower house economics committee....
    Mr Abbott said the prime minister should stand Mr Thomson aside from the parliamentary committee.
    “I think it’s very hard for someone who can’t answer questions about his own credit card to credibly ask questions of the governor of the Reserve Bank about the nation’s credit cards,” Mr Abbott told the Ten Network.
    “So I think this is a big issue and I think the short answer is no, he can’t really remain chairman of that committee.”
    Thomson should be stood down irrespective of whether he did or did not use his union supplied credit card to pay a brothel (which he denies, claiming an unknown man used his card instead). What is undisputed is that Thomson approved that expense - which is hardly the diligent eye you’d want in a man chairing Parliament’s economics committee. And then there’s the rest of the allegations…



    From The Bolt Report today - Abbott and the Thomson scandal | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog
    MORE revelations are to come about the Labor MP accused of hiring callgirls with a union credit card, former Labor powerbroker Graham Richardson has warned.


    The allegations about Craig Thomson's union credit card being used to pay for prostitutes and to withdraw $100,000 in cash when he led the health services union had lain dormant for almost 18 months until he gave an interview to the radio station's Mike Smith this month.


    Influential Labor figure hints at more Thomson revelations
    BESIEGED MP Craig Thomson is likely to face an Australian Taxation Office investigation of his financial affairs as questions mount about cash withdrawals and visits to brothels claimed on his former Health Services Union credit card. Former senior ATO auditor Chris Seage said the body would almost certainly launch investigations seeking any unpaid income tax, particularly after audit firm BDO and the HSU found not all of the claims on the card were supported by receipts.
    At the core of the ATO interest in Mr Thomson will be revelations that $100,000-plus in cash advances were made on his HSU credit card, according to Mr Seage.
    "The ATO's audit division scours newspapers for potential cases," he said.


    Tax man poised to chat with MP Craig Thomson | thetelegraph.com.au
    Thomson two years ago sued the Sydney Morning Herald, which first reported these details. But last year he dropped the case before it went to trial, which left him with not only his costs but the paper’s.
    Those costs are said to be more than $200,000, and early this year the NSW Labor Party gave Thomson $90,000 or more to help him meet them.
    This is an incredible use of cash raised from Labor members. Thomson was given Labor money for a private legal action he launched over something he allegedly did as a union leader, not a Labor politician.
    We can only suspect Labor bailed him out to stop him going bankrupt, given bankrupts cannot sit in Parliament under the Constitution.



    Column - Labor chains itself to a carcass | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog
    This member is the Chair of our nations Economics Committee, and he will have a large say in the Carbon Dioxide Tax. Can we trust his judgement?

    But the worst part:






    JuLIAR back his judgement 100%, what does this say about hers?


    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    after all it is a Labor bloke, you know, the ones you don't like
    If you had read the thread, you'd know that I've voted for Labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    Also don't make the fools mistake of believing that anyone who is not an Andrew Bolt worshipper is a member of the Labor Party.
    If you had read the thread, you'd know that Bolta used to work for the Labor Party and he has many friends who are Labor politicians.

  11. #7211
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default It was freezing.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    It was a little before my time. Can you tell me about it? What was it like?
    It was really cold.

    I was studying one of my many degrees at the time (20 below zero degrees from memory).

    The good news is we could all afford the heating bills because there was no Carbon Dioxide TAX.

  12. #7212
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Just one please.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    All the evidence (and there is much) supports the AGW theory.
    Is this one of the positive affirmations that you believe will be taken on faith if you chant it often enough?

    I have continually asked for any empirical evidence at all proving this farce, yet not a single piece has been shown.

    If you say there is much, please let us in on the secret?

    P.S. Psychic computers and peoples opinions are not empirical evidence.

  13. #7213
    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Freud View Post
    II have continually asked for any empirical evidence at all proving this farce, yet not a single piece has been shown.
    I'm glad you asked... yet again.. Let's take it reeeeaaallllyy slooooooowly for yooooou....

    Let's look at the average global temperature first....



    From: Data.GISS: GISS Surface Temperature Analysis: Analysis Graphs and Plots

    This is actual empirical measurements of the temperature. It doesn't make any projections at all.

    Are you keeping up????

    The temperature is rising.

    I'll let you digest that for now. I think you've had trouble with this evidence before... Was it you that claimed it was cooling???
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

  14. #7214
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default I told you Barnaby was a smart man!

    With our nations economic future and the Carbon Dioxide TAX at stake, JuLIAR has been missing in action and her silence is deafening on this issue, so good o'l Barnaby tries to unravel the mess:




    If Thomson quits or is sacked, no Carbon Dioxide TAX at all!

    I'd say that makes his circumstances central to this debate.

    The government seems to think so:

    It is understood senior Labor officials are in almost constant contact with Mr Thomson amid fears the MP might quit under pressure.


    "He is being talked to 24/7 because there is a big fear he will crack and just pull the pin," a Labor figure said.


    Mr Abbott has said it is up to the Prime Minister to act when Parliament resumes tomorrow.

    "This really has now gone from being just an issue for Craig Thomson to being a big issue for the Prime Minister," he said. "You can't have a Prime Minister who refused to answer reasonable questions about what she knew and what she did."


    The Thomson prostitute affair - How Labor zipped up a scandal | thetelegraph.com.au

  15. #7215
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default And then...

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    I'm glad you asked... yet again.. Let's take it reeeeaaallllyy slooooooowly for yooooou....

    Let's look at the average global temperature first....



    From: Data.GISS: GISS Surface Temperature Analysis: Analysis Graphs and Plots

    This is actual empirical measurements of the temperature. It doesn't make any projections at all.

    Are you keeping up????

    The temperature is rising.

    I'll let you digest that for now. I think you've had trouble with this evidence before... Was it you that claimed it was cooling???
    Thanks, that's empirical evidence of the temperature going up over a defined period of time.

    That makes it evidence of an EFFECT, not a CAUSE.

    As I've said on many occasions, I won't argue data accuracy semantics just to get you to the next step. Most instrumental analysis indicates about 0.7 degrees celsius rise over the twentieth century, which matches the natural temperature rises expected while coming out of the last Little Ice Age.

    None of this is in dispute (notwithstanding data accuracy and analysis concerns above).

    So the effect is agreed to.

    But what are the causes of this effect?

    So the next step Padawan is to find empirical evidence proving the AGW hypothesis?

    Just one piece will do!

  16. #7216
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Cause and effect - retail version.

    The retailers appear to know what's causing consumer confidence to plummet:




    It's just so "last season"!

  17. #7217
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default What a great time to slow down economic growth with a BIG NEW TAX!

    UP TO 100,000 jobs will be lost in Australia by the end of the year, with another 100,000 to go next year, economists have warned. This will take the unemployment rate from 5.1 per cent to 5.5 per cent by year end, and up to 6 per cent in 2012.

    There has been news of more than 1000 jobs to go at both Qantas and Westpac and 400 at OneSteel, with a similar number expected from rival steelmaker BlueScope when it delivers its profits tomorrow. Substantial job losses are expected at a range of other companies, including Telstra, SingTel, Ten Network, Coca-Cola, GWA and Boral.


    There have also been sizeable job losses recently at Colorado, Heinz and Shell, and some speculation that job losses may be looming at Suncorp.


    The future of the retail sector, the country's largest industry employer with 1.2 million workers or about 11 per cent of the workforce, is also in danger.




    Jobs under pressure
    And is JuLIAR looking to steer our economy through this?

    Uh uh! This week she'll be: petitioning the High Court to smuggle people out of the country; hiding Thomson so he can't answer questions or quit; pretending she's not back-flipped over Manus Island; spinning why we're getting more and more deficits, not the promised surplus; avoiding discussing how our national debt is going toward a quarter of a trillion dollars; obfuscating why productivity is in the toilet under her IR changes; etc, etc.

    Oh yeh, and spending more of our tax dollars convincing us that if we pay more Carbon Dioxide TAX to her, the Planet Earth will get colder.

    No wonder consumer confidence is shattered. People have realised that no-one is driving this country in any particular direction. We are spinning in accordance with Labor's spin machine!



    The Convoy of No-Confidence can pass this onto JuLIAR tomorrow.

  18. #7218
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Another possible exit strategy.

    If Wilkie pulls the pin in May, then this government will be gone before this disastrous Carbon Dioxide TAX gets a chance to get rolling:


    Yet another wild and desperate promise by Julia Gillard turns sour:

    EMBATTLED NSW Labor MPs are quietly distancing themselves from the government’s promise to introduce mandatory pre-commitment for poker machines, describing the impact of a Clubs NSW grassroots campaign against the measure as ‘’worse than the carbon tax’’.
    Almost every NSW MP attended a private meeting this week with the Families Minister, Jenny Macklin, and Ben Hubbard, the chief of staff to the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, about the measure, promised to the Tasmanian independent, Andrew Wilkie, as part of the deal to win his support for Labor to form government. A second meeting was held with concerned Queensland MPs.
    ‘’The mood was toxic,’’ one backbencher said. ‘’The general view was that this is bigger than the carbon tax. It is hurting us much more than the carbon tax.’’
    Clubs NSW has held rallies in clubs across the state to protest against the mandatory pre-commitment by gamblers of how much they intend to bet, which it claims will force job cuts and reduce the cash that clubs can invest in sporting organisations and local causes…
    Mr Wilkie says ... he will bring down the Gillard government if it is not legislated by next May.
    Lenore Taylor:

    During the winter break Clubs NSW held scores of ‘’Save our Clubs’’ rallies as part of a campaign targeting the electorates of 25 Labor MPs, 15 of them in NSW.
    Long-term local members found themselves being booed and jeered by hundreds of club patrons who believe the government’s plan to stop problem gambling by introducing mandatory pre-commitment for bets of more than $1 a time on poker machines will destroy the clubs where they go for a cheap meal and a flutter.
    The crowds, sometimes numbering in the thousands, were egged on by a video message from the broadcaster Alan Jones, in which he says their message to Julia Gillard should be ‘’go away, get out of our lives, we’ve heard you, we don’t like you’’.
    At least two of the MPs - backbencher Craig Thomson, who is under pressure over allegations of using a union credit card to pay for prostitutes, and Daryl Melham, who is president of the Revesby Workers Club - were so flustered by the angry attacks they responded in kind and were later forced to apologise.
    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/a...nother_gamble/
    The pokie machine legislation will not pass.

    So either Wilkie loses all credibility, or JuLIAR loses government!

  19. #7219
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default The Convoy!

    We don't want this environmentally useless and economically destructive TAX!


    The convoys are on the move:

    CANBERRA will be squeezed to capacity next week when thousands of trucks and other vehicles converge on the nation’s capital in the Convoy of No Confidence.
    About 300 semi-trailers, caravans and cars from across Australia are expected to arrive in Goulburn on Sunday, before heading into Canberra the next day.

    From Darwin:

    A Convoy of more than 100 vehicles - including road trains, campervans and utes - rolled into Katherine last night to show their support for the Convoy of no Confidence, a convoy heading to Canberra to raise a voice against recent government decisions.
    Rashida Khan, who led a trail of vehicles from Darwin to Katherine yesterday, said she was on her way to Canberra to speak up for “some of the toughest people” she knows, who “have been pushed to the edge by the decision to ban live export”.
    “And I don’t know how much further you can push these people,” Ms Khan said.
    Not all will make the expensive trip all the way to Canberra, but enough feel so strongly about the protest that they’re paying thousands:

    From Perth:
    A CONVOY of protesters angry at the federal government’s proposed carbon and mining taxes and the live cattle export ban has left Perth headed for Canberra.
    About 50 people in 25 trucks, vans and cars joined in the “Convoy of No Confidence’’ that left Belmont racecourse early this morning.
    Around a third of the protesters plan to go all the way to Canberra where 11 protest convoys from around Australia will converge for an anti-government rally on August 22.
    Janet Thompson, organiser of the Perth convoy, said people were fed up with over regulation and the carbon tax was set to be a ``huge bureaucratic nightmare.’’…
    Perth truckie Gordon Crawford said the trip to Canberra and back would cost them up to $4500 in fuel and lost work time but he felt his protest was important.
    ``If enough people do it they have got to take notice,’’ he said.

    UPDATE

    Reader Kate reports on the progress of the Convoy of No Confidence, on its way to Canberra from 11 parts of Australia:
    We have just had a message from our son who is co-driving a truck from Charters Towers to Canberra.
    On their way through Clermont this morning the convoy were presented with a donation of $13,000.00 to help with the cost of fuel!! Now that is passing the hat around, particularly for a town of less than 2000 people.


    Trucks roaring to Canberra | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog


    It's time! Now where have I heard that before?

  20. #7220
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Why they drive.

    These people in the Convoy will rather pay for the fuel they use now, than pay for nothing at all later:

    BY 2050, Australia will be sending $57 billion a year overseas just for the right to keep our lights on, as a direct consequence of Julia Gillard's carbon dioxide tax and consequent emissions trading scheme.

    Let me make it perfectly clear. We won't be getting anything tangible back for that $57bn.
    It doesn't buy us windmills or solar panels made in China. It doesn't buy us technology or licensing rights. It's not even a (carbon dioxide) tax, that would at least generate revenue for the government. It just sends money to foreigners for "permission" to keep a few of our coal-fired power stations operating.


    That is to say, it will be an entirely artificial cost, imposed on all Australians, by this Gillard-Brown government, with not the slightest offsetting benefit. It has the same economic consequences as taking $57bn and just shredding it. Every year.


    This extraordinary "fact" is in detailed Treasury modelling of the proposed carbon dioxide tax.

    Australia will send $57bn a year overseas by 2050, Treasury modelling shows | The Australian
    That's why they drive!

  21. #7221
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Putting the ET back into ETS.

    It may not rank as the most compelling reason to curb greenhouse gases, but reducing our emissions might just save humanity from a pre-emptive alien attack, scientists claim.


    Watching from afar, extraterrestrial beings might view changes in Earth's atmosphere as symptomatic of a civilisation growing out of control – and take drastic action to keep us from becoming a more serious threat, the researchers explain.


    This highly speculative scenario is one of several described by a Nasa-affiliated scientist and colleagues at Pennsylvania State University that, while considered unlikely, they say could play out were humans and alien life to make contact at some point in the future.

    "Green" aliens might object to the environmental damage humans have caused on Earth and wipe us out to save the planet. "These scenarios give us reason to limit our growth and reduce our impact on global ecosystems. It would be particularly important for us to limit our emissions of greenhouse gases, since atmospheric composition can be observed from other planets," the authors write.

    Aliens may destroy humanity to protect other civilisations, say scientists | Science | The Guardian

    I always thought they were called little green men because of their skin colour.

    Geez I'm naive sometimes, I should have figured this meant they were aligned with the "greenies" on this Planet too.

    I guess these guys never saw Aliens Vs Predator!

  22. #7222
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    Default No one has the slightest idea what this will actually cost!

    MORE than half of WA households will be worse off under Julia Gillard's carbon tax, according to a new WA Treasury report to be released today. The report directly contradicts the Prime Minister's claims that two out of three households will receive enough compensation through tax cuts and family assistance to cover the expected $9.90 a week jump in the cost of living.
    The Treasury report, called Impact of the Proposed Carbon Tax on Western Australia, predicts 419,000 WA households or 52 per cent will be worse off under the carbon tax, despite Ms Gillard's sweeteners.
    And in further bad news for WA families, the report forecasts further increases in transport and water charges come July 1 as a result of the tax.
    These rises will will come on top of an expected $115-a-year lift in electricity charges revealed by The Sunday Times last month


    Gillard leading WA up the carbon path, according to WA Treasury report | Perth Now
    Every day different government agencies, councils, health care providers, state governments, businesses and utilities tell us about the more and more costs and price rises we will have as a result of this BIG NEW TAX.


    All for zero environmental benefit.


    This is nutty in a growing economy. It is economic suicide in our current economic climate.

  23. #7223
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default If we don't get answers, do we assume corruption?

    Why would you not tell the truth if you did nothing wrong?

    Why would you say nothing at all?

    This is the Prime Minister of our country refusing to talk to us!

    THE ALP bailout of Craig Thomson could be more than $150,000 - and federal minister Mark Arbib is understood to have brokered the deal between Prime Minister Julia Gillard's office and NSW Labor.

    Ms Gillard refused yesterday to reveal how much Labor had paid to stop Craig Thomson becoming bankrupt in the face of large legal bills.


    If the Central Coast MP was declared bankrupt he would have been forced to quit parliament, which could have brought down the minority government.


    Ms Gillard refused to answer a question in parliament as to when she first spoke to Mr Thomson about his debts, saying: "It is not my intention to comment on private discussions I have with the member for Dobell."


    New questions as fund for MP Craig Thomson tops $150,000 | thetelegraph.com.au
    The cover up is always the killer.

  24. #7224
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Everyone is looking for the exits.

    This government is burning down is front of us, and Labor MP's are looking for the exits:

    Business is wisely refusing to believe the Gillard Government’s claims that the rest of the world is leaving us behind in “pricing carbon”:

    BIG business is demanding the Gillard government include economic ‘’safety valves’’ so carbon tax legislation can be ‘’scaled down’’ if its core assumptions of indefinite economic growth and steady progress in international climate negotiations turn out to be wrong.

    Business Council of Australia chief executive Jennifer Westacott told the Herald the carbon tax bills had been ‘’drafted so all the environmental elements can’t be stopped but the business protections can be eroded.’’
    ‘’We think it is just commonsense, in this environment of economic volatility and no binding action by other countries, that the government should be able to review and adjust what it is doing in response to what happens,’’ she said.
    Julian Leeser says Labor MPs should save themselves:


    For the tax to fail in Parliament, Labor backbenchers (I have given up on the independents) have to cross the floor and vote against it. This is a very unlikely scenario given Labor Party discipline and the way so-called “rats” are ostracised by the Labor machine. But there must be a number of Labor members in marginal mining and manufacturing seats who know that they will lose their seats unless they stop the carbon tax.

    When Labor pursued its disastrous Tasmanian forestry policy under Mark Latham at the 2004 election, Dick Adams was due to lose the Tasmanian seat of Lyons. He repudiated the Latham/Brown policy (which was the last time Labor let the Greens make policy for them). Adams survived because he chose his constituency over his party and remains a federal MP to this day....
    People do have power - to badger their local member or their local media and to organise their friends and communities to let marginal backbenchers know there is a cost to voting for this tax in terms they understand.
    Escape hatch wanted | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog
    All because of a useless TAX based on a lie.

  25. #7225
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default It leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

    Imagine if I took your money and bought a sh-- sandwich, then took more of your money to pay for advertising to convince you to eat it?

    Maybe you'd right me a letter too!


    Dear Prime Minister,

    I have chosen to return to you the unopened Government propaganda publication titled “What a carbon price means for you” on the 1st anniversary of your promise; “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead”.

    Considering the misleading and erroneous reference to carbon as opposed to carbon dioxide, as seen through the unopened transparent plastic wrap on the covering of the above mentioned publication. I wonder if you and your Government have applied enough intellectual rigour in your appreciation process to understand that Carbon and Carbon Dioxide is not the same thing? If you and your Government do understand the difference, why would you choose to disseminate propaganda that uses deception, in order to promote a policy that you made a solemn promise to all Australians that you would not impose?

    Since you and your Government as evidenced through you and your colleagues’ words and actions, do not have the integrity to communicate to the Australian people without deceit and obfuscation. When your own words as a measure of integrity are clearly not even valued by you. You should not be surprised that I like most Australians have simply stopped listening to you and your Government.

    So please take your propaganda publication back, I do not need another egregious example of you and your Governments disdain towards all Australians.

    Yours Faithfully,

    Daniel

    Daniel sends it back | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog

  26. #7226
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default How the Carbon Dioxide TAX destroyed The Labor Party!

    From the heart of The Labor Party:



    I’ve got on the line John Black who is a former Labor Party senator during the 1980s. He’s now the chief executive of the demographic profiling company Australian Development Strategies.
    Well, let’s go to Graham Richardson.

    ALAN JONES:
    Can’t hack it. Just two questions then, a) will she lead the Labor Party into the next election and b) what will happen to the Labor Party at the next election?


    JOHN BLACK:
    Well, I don’t believe that she will and there’s a slim chance for the Labor Party if they changed to the right leader and acted quickly.


    ALAN JONES:
    Graham Richardson?


    GRAHAM RICHARDSON:
    She’ll lead Labor, it’s far more likely, and I believe Labor will be slaughtered.

    The real debate, not the media one | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog
    It's over!

  27. #7227
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Now we're the extremists!

    Apparently conducting a peaceful protest in your own country is labelled "extremism" by the Labor Party now. We saw this last week with the Carbon Dioxide TAX protest, and the prior TAX protest, and they are labelling us Aussies "extremists" again for the Convoy of No Confidence rally at Parliament House today:

    The Convoy of No Confidence is already being demonised by Labor and some in the media as a bunch of extremists, but most of the rest of Australia will recognise themselves in these people:
    CANBERRA is set to be brought to its knees tomorrow when 11 separate truck and van convoys from every mainland state and territory protest the legitimacy of the Gillard government.
    The Convoy of No Confidence comes as parliament sits for four days and Prime Minister Julia Gillard, whose stocks are sagging in opinion polls, faces community anger over her broken promise on the carbon tax and changes to the diesel fuel rebate.
    One of the convoy organisers, truck driver and former Queensland Liberal National Party state candidate Mick Pattel, said the convoy was a wake-up call for the government.
    “Every decision that they make seems to be an absolute blunder,” Mr Pattel told ABC radio.
    “I think the government has been compromised by the fact that it’s not governing in its own right,” he added, referring to the Greens and independents who helped deliver minority government 12 months ago.
    A petition will be presented calling for a double-dissolution election.
    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, who is expected to join the protest which will get to Canberra about 6am (AEST) tomorrow, said the Gillard government had the “Midas touch in reverse”.
    The cost of driving huge rigs to Canberra will no doubt limit the numbers, but enough people seem to think the sacrifice worth the chance of registering a protest to a Government so wilfully deaf.

    Bendigo’s trucks gather. (Thanks to reader Bob.)

    Convoy No. 5 comes down the Hume yesterday.

    Ruth and friends are coming down from Brisbane.

    Convoy rolls to Canberra | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog
    Behold the face of EXTREMISM in Australia today (according to Greens/Labor):



    If you don't throw in a few stubby holders and some beer and things may get "extreme".

    But that's some Aussies telling their government (peacefully) they don't want $57 billion of their taxes sent overseas every year for NO REASON!

    And yet the same Greens/Labor government asks us to forgive these peoples actions below because they are "victims", NOT extremists:


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Freud View Post
    I heard that a massive JuLIAR Labor Government failure had led to this carnage!!!








    I was shocked, but I couldn't figure out what had happened:



    1) Had Global Warming come true and Australia was now burning to hell?
    2) Was this a candle knocked over during Earth Hour causing more emissions?
    2) Or was this another "pink batts insulation debacle" ceiling fire gone haywire?
    3) Or was this poor traumatised refugees showing their gratitude for our taxpayer dollars paying for their free housing, food, healthcare etc etc?

    Then I found out the truth.

    Guards retreat as detainees set Villawood alight | The Australian


    Phew, RELAX, it's not Global Warming writ large. Us sceptics are still right!

    Australia won't burn to hell, but under this government, it'll just go to hell.
    Now, just so you understand this Labor's governments position for those opposing their Carbon Dioxide TAX.

    Here's the extremists:




    EDITED POST = PIC REMOVED




    Got it!

  28. #7228
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    There is nothing decent about linking the Truckies protest with what is happening in detention centres.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno62 View Post
    There is nothing decent about linking the Truckies protest with what is happening in detention centres.

    I agree..however the original post was back in April (missed).....and its removal will require severe editing of subsequent posts.....bit too hard.

  30. #7230
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    The ridge tile thrower isn't a link, it is a paste. (bottom photo)

  31. #7231
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    Done

  32. #7232
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    Default

    In defence of Dr Freud, I thought the picture was okay. It certainly helped to show other readers that his interest in AGW is mostly (purely?) political and little (or nothing?) to do with the actual science.

    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

  33. #7233
    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Freud View Post
    Most instrumental analysis indicates about 0.7 degrees celsius rise over the twentieth century, which matches the natural temperature rises expected while coming out of the last Little Ice Age.
    SO, you agree that the recent temperature rise is quite high and something of the order of that last seen about 10,000 years ago?
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

  34. #7234
    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Freud View Post
    Behold the face of EXTREMISM in Australia today (according to Greens/Labor):



    If you don't throw in a few stubby holders and some beer and things may get "extreme".
    Let's look behind the scenes a little...

    The so-called Convoy of No Confidence is organised by an outfit called the National Road Freight Association (website: National Road Freighters Association ). The National President of the National Road Freight Association is Mick Pattel (see: Executive Members).

    It is the same Mick Pattel that is endorsed to stand as the LNP candidate for the seat of Mt Isa at the next State election. (see Endorsed by the LNP for Mt Isa - Just Grounds Community ).

    And you think they are just ordinary Australians? Wannabe politicians more like it!

    And speaking of "EXTREMISM", maybe you might like to look at some of his views:

    Haunted: Can-Do’s New World Order | Courier Mail Pineapple Politics Blog


    UPDATE

    I thought I'd check for a more authoritative account of Mick Pattel's LNP candidacy. It seems that he has now withdrawn...

    The Liberal National Party (LNP) candidate for the state seat of Mount Isa in north-west Queensland, Mick Pattel, has pulled out of the race.

    The truck operator says he has withdrawn because he is organising a convoy of trucks to join a protest in Canberra later this month.

    The 'convoy of no-confidence' against the Federal Government is expected to target issues including the carbon tax, the live cattle trade and coal seam gas.

    Mr Pattel says he is not able to stand as a candidate for the LNP and organise a protest as well but he is he's hoping to be reconsidered for the seat down the track.

    "When you become a candidate for the LNP - you sign what's called a candidate's agreement which precludes you from doing anything like this," he said.

    "But I've been under a fair bit of pressure to do something like this to do something like this for quite some time.

    "Now I didn't tell the party I was doing it and it probably wasn't the right thing to do, so because I did that, I said, 'OK, I will stand down from the position'."

    Mount Isa LNP candidate quits - ABC Western Queensland - Australian Broadcasting Corporation
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    And there in lies the problem. We all know what happens when the alarmists start using predictive models.
    I don't know of many alarmists using predictive models but I sure know of a few physicists, biologists, geologists, geophysicists, chemists, hydrologists, sociologists, mathemeticians, engineers, material scientists, psycologist, sociologists, astrobiologists and even the odd climatologist that use computer based predictive modelling based on observational data of both cause and effect.

    It is basis of scientific analysis in every venture of study - even the political sciences (you don't think it's all based on just focus groups surely?).

    Just because the tool is powerful but (occasionally) poorly used doesn't mean the central problem is always with the tool.

    Sometimes.....sadly.....the orchestra is working perfectly, the score is fantastic, the performance space is glorious......and the audience is dominated by a mixture of inattentive dickheads and an extremely large and diverse collection of rare breed sheep. My long held suspicion is that this is often the case with respect to AGW......<sigh>
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

  36. #7236
    4K Club Member ringtail's Avatar
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    Ummmm, thats a lot of ologists.

    How do you think the IPCC, JuLIAR,Flannery,Combet,Wong,Garnaut etc.... come up with their argument ? It certainy isnt through providing factual evidence. Its very easy to point to red line on a graph and say this what we predict will happen if we dont reduce co2.

  37. #7237
    3K Club Member johnc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    Ummmm, thats a lot of ologists.

    How do you think the IPCC, JuLIAR,Flannery,Combet,Wong,Garnaut etc.... come up with their argument ? It certainy isnt through providing factual evidence. Its very easy to point to red line on a graph and say this what we predict will happen if we dont reduce co2.
    When it comes to the politicians I think you find they rely on the advice of professionals in the field and mix it with a bit of focus group and polling. The IPCC is more consensus from a wide range of experts from a number of fields. I really think that when you see the word juliar it is just someone showing their political colours rather than making an effort to cast a wider view of what is presented to them. Who would I take the least notice of, someone who is blinkered by politics, the most would be the experts opinions.

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    The icebreaker R.V. "Polarstern" made it through to the North Pole yesterday, she's been there before of course, but never this early. The ice at the pole is similar to 2007, less than a metre thick, but the chance of a new record for ice loss being set appears less certain.
    Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research (AWI) Where is Polarstern?

  39. #7239
    4K Club Member ringtail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    When it comes to the politicians I think you find they rely on the advice of professionals in the field and mix it with a bit of focus group and polling. The IPCC is more consensus from a wide range of experts from a number of fields. I really think that when you see the word juliar it is just someone showing their political colours rather than making an effort to cast a wider view of what is presented to them. Who would I take the least notice of, someone who is blinkered by politics, the most would be the experts opinions.
    I make no secret of the fact that I'm Liberal through and through. I detest everything that Labor stands for. They are anti small business, anti employer, anti wealthy and anti common sense. They are pro union, pro welfare and as a result are pro wasting tax payers money. On a more personal note, my dislike for Gillard stems from her revolting interpretation of the english language which IMO tars us all with the same brush and her blatant disregard for democracy. I'll take Howards appaling sporting skills and Abbots laugh any day in return for good economics and business confidence.

  40. #7240
    3K Club Member johnc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    I make no secret of the fact that I'm Liberal through and through. I detest everything that Labor stands for. They are anti small business, anti employer, anti wealthy and anti common sense. They are pro union, pro welfare and as a result are pro wasting tax payers money. On a more personal note, my dislike for Gillard stems from her revolting interpretation of the english language which IMO tars us all with the same brush and her blatant disregard for democracy. I'll take Howards appaling sporting skills and Abbots laugh any day in return for good economics and business confidence.
    A fairly blinkered view there, how do you account for the massive explosion in social welfare spending by the Howard government, lets face it that is half the reason we are in deficit at the moment. Both parties are similar in many of their policies, regardless of who comes to power in this country we do not see a throwing out of the old and in with the new approach. We just get gradual change over time, and that is part of the problem neither side wants to rock the boat to much and both try to hold the middle ground to maximise public appeal. Although Mr Abbot without doubt holds greater public appeal at the moment, which is interesting because it is very much a "we will do nothing" approach harking back to the past without a vision for the future which both manufacturing and small business badly need.

  41. #7241
    4K Club Member ringtail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    A fairly blinkered view there, how do you account for the massive explosion in social welfare spending by the Howard government, lets face it that is half the reason we are in deficit at the moment. Both parties are similar in many of their policies, regardless of who comes to power in this country we do not see a throwing out of the old and in with the new approach. We just get gradual change over time, and that is part of the problem neither side wants to rock the boat to much and both try to hold the middle ground to maximise public appeal. Although Mr Abbot without doubt holds greater public appeal at the moment, which is interesting because it is very much a "we will do nothing" approach harking back to the past without a vision for the future which both manufacturing and small business badly need.
    Awww, c'mon. Half the reason for the current deficit ? We both know the reason for the whole deficit is the ALP's ridiculous spending spree and squandering of taxpaxers money. As for Howards middle class welfare - what can I say, when you have the money you can give a bit back. Its when you dont have any money that it become a issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    awww, c'mon. Half the reason for the current deficit ? We both know the reason for the whole deficit is the alp's ridiculous spending spree and squandering of taxpaxers money. As for howards middle class welfare - what can i say, when you have the money you can give a bit back. Its when you dont have any money that it become a issue.
    topic????

  43. #7243
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    Awww, c'mon. Half the reason for the current deficit ? We both know the reason for the whole deficit is the ALP's ridiculous spending spree and squandering of taxpaxers money. As for Howards middle class welfare - what can I say, when you have the money you can give a bit back. Its when you dont have any money that it become a issue.
    If you follow that logic then Labor should have unwound the generous social benefits from the Howard years, the stuck pigs would be squealing
    from one end of the country to the other. Rusted on voters give the country some electoral stability but all our views including those on climate change are best made on the facts as we read them rather than any political or other latent bias we may harbour. The current deficit by the way is pretty much recurrent spending the stimulus spending is all but finished, our problem remains to little tax receipts and no effort to apply the razor. The Liberals got back in the black and out of debt by selling everything the could get there hands on, there is nothing much left to sell, so I would like to see what they think they can do and from the current noises that would be government programs so what do we cut and how much do we let infrastructure slide? They also gained by booming tax revenues and their final act was to offer very generous tax cuts which Labor very foolishly decided to match. Why are we in deficit at the moment?, look to both present and past they both bear some responsibilty.

    Anyway much of your argument I suspect is based on your image of the Liberals rather than reality as I suspect is your view on both climate change and Labor, how are those snowballs going by the way.

    In deference to Watson, I kept my toe in the water of climate change on this post even if the rest of me was elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post

    In deference to Watson, I kept my toe in the water of climate change on this post even if the rest of me was elsewhere.
    Everybody into the ETS pond now.

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    Resigned SilentButDeadly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    topic????
    ....is still visible with a decent set of binoculars and a healthy imagination.
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

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    4K Club Member ringtail's Avatar
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    Sorry. Its raining and cold in Brisbane. Done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ringtail View Post
    Sorry. Its raining and cold in Brisbane. Done.

    Probably the perfect response

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    4K Club Member ringtail's Avatar
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    About bloody time too. It hasnt rained since the floods and things were looking mighty dry.

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    After 7248 post on the global warming debate, it is blatantly obvious that the debate is political and not on so called science.

    In fact I find it extremely funny that so many pretend to display whatever vestige of knowledge they may have on this topic to pontificate in serious terms that there is scientific evidence that:

    Man made CO2 is a pollutant and causes global warming.
    Temperatures are on a rampant upwards trend.
    Sea levels are rising at an alarming rate.
    Tornadoes, earthquake, tsunami and floods are a consequence of man made Global warming.
    Etc etc etc

    Invariably those who make all this alarmist claims, happen to be on the political left or far left.
    Is this just a coincidence?
    Of course not.
    The actions claimed to be necessary to counteract all this terrible happenings, would favor centralization of power, totalitarian power in order to enforce all those green wet dreams, increase in taxation to fund such delusional proposal.
    Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Mussolini, and the rest of history biggest tyrant would have given the right arm to control a quarter of what we are facing.
    Any surprise that the right wing supporters who happen to favor freedom of speech, free market, private property, free enterprise line up behind the opposition?

    Global warming, climate change, rapid climate change, or catastrophic climate change, are all just one thing.
    A tool to take your freedom away in the name of the common good.
    Enjoy present pleasures in such a way as not to injure future ones.
    Seneca

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    After 7248 post on the global warming debate, it is blatantly obvious that the debate is political and not on so called science.

    In fact I find it extremely funny that so many pretend to display whatever vestige of knowledge they may have on this topic to pontificate in serious terms that there is scientific evidence that:

    Man made CO2 is a pollutant and causes global warming.
    Temperatures are on a rampant upwards trend.
    Sea levels are rising at an alarming rate.
    Tornadoes, earthquake, tsunami and floods are a consequence of man made Global warming.
    Etc etc etc

    Invariably those who make all this alarmist claims, happen to be on the political left or far left.
    Is this just a coincidence?
    Of course not.
    The actions claimed to be necessary to counteract all this terrible happenings, would favor centralization of power, totalitarian power in order to enforce all those green wet dreams, increase in taxation to fund such delusional proposal.
    Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Mussolini, and the rest of history biggest tyrant would have given the right arm to control a quarter of what we are facing.
    Any surprise that the right wing supporters who happen to favor freedom of speech, free market, private property, free enterprise line up behind the opposition?

    Global warming, climate change, rapid climate change, or catastrophic climate change, are all just one thing.
    A tool to take your freedom away in the name of the common good.
    And I bet you don't believe in the tooth fairy either Marc.

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