Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #11551
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    You were included in that association.

    We are not talking about concentrations approaching anything like the numbers you are ranting about. Nor is anyone talking about warming that is catastrophic to life on this planet. Only warming that will challenge the maintenance or enhancement of our current standard of living in the coming century...
    So now there isn't going to be catastrophic warming of the atmosphere! Now that's a first from the AGW side! You seem to be joining the dots together!
    regards inter

  2. #11552
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    The answer to your question should not depend on the slimy character innuendoes that are a part of almost every post of yours, and BTW does not throw out any theory, in any case.

    i ask again, where is your proof that 5% less solar irradiance offset & nullified the 20 times more super heating capabilities of CO2 concentrations 600 million years ago?

    regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    So now there isn't going to be catastrophic warming of the atmosphere! Now that's a first from the AGW side! You seem to be joining the dots together!
    Warming "that will challenge the maintenance or enhancement of our current standard of living" is a dire enough problem. Who has talked about anything else in this forum?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  4. #11554
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    i ask again, where is your proof that 5% less solar irradiance offset & nullified the 20 times more super heating capabilities of CO2 concentrations 600 million years ago?
    A: It is not my theory and does not require "my proof";

    B: Your own posts over the past little while contain all of the required data to establish that the premise you are making is fanciful;

    C: What is the relevance of your persistent hallucination to the topic of this forum?; and/or

    D: When are you going to publish your cortical revelation and save the world?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  5. #11555
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Warming "that will challenge the maintenance or enhancement of our current standard of living" is a dire enough problem. Who has talked about anything else in this forum?
    Still dodging the question?
    Regards inter

  6. #11556
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    A: It is not my theory and does not require "my proof";

    B: Your own posts over the past little while contain all of the required data to establish that the premise you are making is fanciful;

    C: What is the relevance of your persistent hallucination to the topic of this forum?; and/or

    D: When are you going to publish your cortical revelation and save the world?
    Your still dodging the question!
    regards inter

  7. #11557
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    Inter, answer just one question: Why don't YOU ever answer a question?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Inter, answer just one question: Why don't YOU ever answer a question?
    What still no answer? And more futile attempts to deflect the subject!
    regards inter

  9. #11559
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    No answer?

    BTW - RE your question: Still can't read?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    No answer?

    BTW - RE your question: Still can't read?
    Your getting pathetic now!
    Regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Your getting pathetic now!
    Thank you for your candid assessment of my contribution. It makes participation in this forum worthwhile. In the past few hundred posts on this topic, you haven't posted any significant data or theory, or links to credible sites to support your contention, yet you have posted dozens of personal attacks and made scores of snide remarks about other people. ++ for consistency, - - for substance.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  12. #11562
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Your getting pathetic now!
    Regards inter
    Pure playing the man, can't get much lower than that can we! Look this is for no other reason than the fact you have been asked to be accountable for repeated unsupported comments yet fail to do so. If you have been backed into a corner it is one of your own making, this is not about you but the topic the fact your position is one you are unwilling to back up speaks volumes.

  13. #11563
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Thank you for your candid assessment of my contribution. It makes participation in this forum worthwhile. In the past few hundred posts on this topic, you haven't posted any significant data or theory, or links to credible sites to support your contention, yet you have posted dozens of personal attacks and made scores of snide remarks about other people. ++ for consistency, - - for substance.
    And there I was, hoping & almost praying that this time you might have found something to parrot about proving CO2 has the ability to burn up the planet, as has predictably turned out your cupboard is bare with proof & now we have to endure the seeming endless ranting of some one who can't admit it!
    regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    You were included in that association.

    We are not talking about concentrations approaching anything like the numbers you are ranting about. Nor is anyone talking about warming that is catastrophic to life on this planet. Only warming that will challenge the maintenance or enhancement of our current standard of living in the coming century...
    Wow! another downgrade on the effects of AGW, at least it's realistic for a change, the brighter amongst us know this already & realise that the alarmists exaggerations to instil fear in the population will never eventuate, in other words you have been sucked into a cult following!
    regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Pure playing the man, can't get much lower than that can we! Look this is for no other reason than the fact you have been asked to be accountable for repeated unsupported comments yet fail to do so. If you have been backed into a corner it is one of your own making, this is not about you but the topic the fact your position is one you are unwilling to back up speaks volumes.
    it appears you don't have the answer or proof either, other than say so or belief! The hallmarks of a devout cult follower!
    regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    "Global warming woes? Tiny ants might save Earth". Which will save us from Warming "that will challenge the maintenance or enhancement of our current standard of living" no wonder your so worried sick about it! Forget all the other global issues killing people right now, this is the number one priority!
    Regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    it appears you don't have the answer or proof either, other than say so or belief! The hallmarks of a devout cult follower!
    regards inter
    Insight Inter, you need some insight, only then will you see the light and realise the fallacy of your delusions, particularly the attack as the only form of defence delusion.

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    China to ban coal use in Beijing from 2020

    Not just Beijing, China is banning the use of coal in many other provinces as well, including Shandong, the largest coal-consuming province in China which burns as much coal as Germany and Japan combined. Time to divest of shares in Australian coal mining companies...
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    So now there isn't going to be catastrophic warming of the atmosphere! Now that's a first from the AGW side! You seem to be joining the dots together!
    regards inter
    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Wow! another downgrade on the effects of AGW, at least it's realistic for a change, the brighter amongst us know this already & realise that the alarmists exaggerations to instil fear in the population will never eventuate, in other words you have been sucked into a cult following!
    regards inter
    It's getting worrisome when you feel the need to respond to the same post twice. Did I hit a nerve?

    To my knowledge, no-one has alleged herein that we are going to 'burn the planet to a crisp' as a result of AGW.

    There certainly has been some conjecture (more like though experiments) amongst some scientists as to whether our influence could eventually (like hundreds of millions of years eventually) lead to runaway warming as with Venus but that is akin to similar thought experiments such as 'what the world would look like without human being?' and 'what the world would look like without life?' - interesting but not of immediate use.

    As for catastrophic warming...the level used to describe 'catastrophe' really depends on the one doing the describing. I would regard a sea level rise of 5 metres from 1990 levels as 'unfortunate' rather than catastrophic but if you live in any Australian capital city (except Canberra) you might think otherwise. Our beloved media certainly would...
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    Thank you for your esteemed consideration.

    As for your ice age reference...do you care to enlighten us as to why you think this was the case or is this information as irrelevant to you as a civil discussion with your peers?
    Well, to be honest I expected someone to say ... no Marc, you are wrong, it was 427 ppm, or perhaps .. no it was 12700 years ago or something like that.
    Anyway, the "relevance" is rather obvious. If someone makes up a story that CO2 is bad for you and that is so because it is heating the world beyond repair and the sea will rise by 9 meters tomorrow and we must run to the hills today ... or words to that effect ... then the logical reasoning is: If CO2 is so bad TODAY, how come it wasn't so bad 12000 years ago?
    Answer: It wasn't and it isn't, so the story is rubbish. Simple.

    As far as all the other long bows and long shots and pretend angers and offenses and ohmagosh, not to mention the "reported post" aaaaaaa... I find them all rather amusing. Yes the butterfly fart is a very good analogy, and perhaps someone catches up and mentiones the butterfly effect, who knows, so many knowledgeable and erudite persons here and me the only one struggling for a thought or two, hehe.

    Anyway, since there is no butterfly gas smell in SA or we would have known by now, perhaps another story may tickle your fancy.

    This report examines in detail the mechanisms and methods of a far-left environmental machine that has been erected around a small group of powerful and active millionaires and billionaires who exert tremendous sway over a colossal effort. Although startling in its findings, the report covers only a small fraction of the amount of money that is being secreted and moved around.
    http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/ind...6-be947c523439
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  22. #11572
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    It's getting worrisome when you feel the need to respond to the same post twice. Did I hit a nerve?

    To my knowledge, no-one has alleged herein that we are going to 'burn the planet to a crisp' as a result of AGW.

    There certainly has been some conjecture (more like though experiments) amongst some scientists as to whether our influence could eventually (like hundreds of millions of years eventually) lead to runaway warming as with Venus but that is akin to similar thought experiments such as 'what the world would look like without human being?' and 'what the world would look like without life?' - interesting but not of immediate use.

    As for catastrophic warming...the level used to describe 'catastrophe' really depends on the one doing the describing. I would regard a sea level rise of 5 metres from 1990 levels as 'unfortunate' rather than catastrophic but if you live in any Australian capital city (except Canberra) you might think otherwise. Our beloved media certainly would...
    Your revelation was certainly worth 2 posts & I'm sure it will be brought up again & again at the appropriate & inappropriate times!
    you mustn't have been paying attention lately, didn't you see the data one of you comrades presented showing that the more CO2 concentrations rise the less effect it has on the atmosphere! So in reality you guys are sinking your own boat slowly but steadily, yet you don't appear realise it by then coming out with the ridiculous alarmist rubbish about sea rise that seemingly is going to happen quicker that the life of people, structures, infrastructure & goodness knows whatever else! Good one!
    regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    China to ban coal use in Beijing from 2020

    Not just Beijing, China is banning the use of coal in many other provinces as well, including Shandong, the largest coal-consuming province in China which burns as much coal as Germany and Japan combined. Time to divest of shares in Australian coal mining companies...
    thats some nice propaganda! It would take a special type of a galah believe they will use less coal though?
    regards inter

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    My boat floats just fine. I (amongst many) write the policy response to climate change on behalf of government...even this one. I am part of your future. What do you do?
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Well, to be honest I expected someone to say ... no Marc, you are wrong, it was 427 ppm, or perhaps .. no it was 12700 years ago or something like that.
    Anyway, the "relevance" is rather obvious. If someone makes up a story that CO2 is bad for you and that is so because it is heating the world beyond repair and the sea will rise by 9 meters tomorrow and we must run to the hills today ... or words to that effect ... then the logical reasoning is: If CO2 is so bad TODAY, how come it wasn't so bad 12000 years ago?
    Answer: It wasn't and it isn't, so the story is rubbish. Simple.
    Well, no one has said that CO2 is bad for you or that the sea will rise by 9 meters tomorrow, so (to quote your esteemed self) your post is rubbish. Simple.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    My boat floats just fine. I (amongst many) write the policy response to climate change on behalf of government...even this one. I am part of your future. What do you do?
    I try to avoid the influence of idiots on myself & loved ones future, people tend to live longer healthier lives that way!
    One would think you could at least supply something in regards to my question posed, seeing you claim to some way involved the the bureaucratic climate change policy process! Or it seems facts have no place in the process!
    regards inter

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    Which question? Why? Don't you trust the Government? We have a Department for that.
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    Which question? Why? Don't you trust the Government? We have a Department for that.
    I know! The whole government!
    regards inter

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    Global Warming Deniers Grow More Desperate By The Day | DeSmogBlog

    "The Heartland Institute’s recent International Climate Change Conference in Las Vegas illustrates climate change deniers’ desperate confusion. As Bloomberg News noted, “Heartland’s strategy seemed to be to throw many theories at the wall and see what stuck.” A who’s who of fossil fuel industry supporters and anti-science shills variously argued that global warming is a myth; that it’s happening but natural — a result of the sun or “Pacific Decadal Oscillation”; that it’s happening but we shouldn’t worry about it; or that global cooling is the real problem."

    Every one of those contradictory myths has been thrown up in this forum in the past few days!

    "Personal attacks are common among deniers. Their lies are continually debunked, leaving them with no rational challenge to overwhelming scientific evidence that the world is warming and that humans are largely responsible."

    Who would have thought?


    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  31. #11581
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Global Warming Deniers Grow More Desperate By The Day | DeSmogBlog

    "The Heartland Institute’s recent International Climate Change Conference in Las Vegas illustrates climate change deniers’ desperate confusion. As Bloomberg News noted, “Heartland’s strategy seemed to be to throw many theories at the wall and see what stuck.” A who’s who of fossil fuel industry supporters and anti-science shills variously argued that global warming is a myth; that it’s happening but natural — a result of the sun or “Pacific Decadal Oscillation”; that it’s happening but we shouldn’t worry about it; or that global cooling is the real problem."

    Every one of those contradictory myths has been thrown up in this forum in the past few days!

    "Personal attacks are common among deniers. Their lies are continually debunked, leaving them with no rational challenge to overwhelming scientific evidence that the world is warming and that humans are largely responsible."

    Who would have thought?


    who cares! The carbon tax is gone, there has been next to near nothing warming since 1998 & CO2 has never nor is ever going to cause catastrophic warming, you should sell you recipe for waffling on about a lost cause for the sleep deprived as drug free remedy for instant sleep!
    regards inter

  32. #11582
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    Has there been no warming since 1998? This is what you see when put skeptic Dr Roy Spenser's satellite data of the temperature of the lower troposphere on a graph with trend lines for the rate of warming before 1998 and a trend one for no warming since 1998:



    WHOOPS! Given how fast global temperature was rising prior to 1998, the real surprise is not that temperatures slowed or stopped their increase … the real surprise is that temperatures rose so far so fast and were so damn hot. All sixteen years have been hotter than the still-warming as previously trend (red line), so of course they also were above the no-warming prediction (blue line).
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  33. #11583
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Has there been no warming since 1998? This is what you see when put skeptic Dr Roy Spenser's satellite data of the temperature of the lower troposphere on a graph with trend lines for the rate of warming before 1998 and a trend one for no warming since 1998:


    ).
    so now in some backfiring bizarre way your acknowledging that there hasn't been any warming since 1998, but then continue with some irrelevant waffle! It was almost as if there was a glimmer of hope you might actually come out with something relevant, but it wasn't! So now the sleep deprived are crashing headlong into their keyboards....... Again!
    regards inter

  34. #11584
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    This graph is the UAH satellite data - no fiddles, no missing holes, no heat islands, just average global lower atmosphere temperature measured from space. No warming since 1998 would be indicated by the black line to the right of 1998 enclosing equal areas above and below the solid blue "no warming" trend line. It is clear that the rate of warming is intact faster since 1998 than previously, because the measured post-1998 temperatures remain entirely above the solid red pre-1998 warming trend line. Anyone who looks at this data and doesn't see warming post 1998 is acknowledging they have a severe comprehension impairment.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    who cares! The carbon tax is gone
    Yeah, who cares since no one is really going to be better off!

    According to local councils around Adelaide, the saving will be less than $1 per household per year on council expenses. That is despite estimate its impact at more than 20 times that amount before it was introduced. The carbon tax wasn't a tax, because it was avoidable by changing practises, which was the intention of the carbon trading price. And it worked as intended, which is why governments all over the world are scrambling to introduce carbon trading schemes as an effecting way of dealing with transitioning to clean energy, and revitalising economies.

    Developing countries have realised that conventional economic models will not "lift them out of poverty" when they have to import high cost energy. The rapid growth of the world's renewable energy sector is being led increasingly by developing and emerging nations. 95 developing countries have renewable energy development policies today, comprising the majority of the 138 countries with such policies around the world. The rise of support in the developing world contrasts with declining support and policy uncertainty in some industrialized economies, like Australia. Instead of placing the nation to take advantage of growth in the world renewable energy sector, our government's policies are ensuring Australia will be trampled in the rush. Great result - NOT!

    http://www.worldwatch.org/renewables...-energy-growth

    http://about.bnef.com/press-releases...rough-to-2030/
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    This graph is the UAH satellite data - no fiddles, no missing holes, no heat islands, just average global lower atmosphere temperature measured from space. No warming since 1998 would be indicated by the black line to the right of 1998 enclosing equal areas above and below the solid blue "no warming" trend line. It is clear that the rate of warming is intact faster since 1998 than previously, because the measured post-1998 temperatures remain entirely above the solid red pre-1998 warming trend line. Anyone who looks at this data and doesn't acknowledge continued warming post 1998 has a severe comprehension impairment.
    i couldn't lift my head off the table for a long relevant reply to this dribble!
    regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Yeah, who cares since no one is really going to be better off!

    According to local councils around Adelaide, the saving will be less than $1 per household per year on council expenses. That is despite estimate its impact at more than 20 times that amount before it was introduced. The carbon tax wasn't a tax, because it was avoidable by changing practises, which was the intention of the carbon trading price. And it worked as intended, which is why governments all over the world are scrambling to introduce carbon trading schemes as an effecting way of dealing with transitioning to clean energy, and revitalising economies.

    Developing countries have realised that conventional economic models will not "lift them out of poverty" when they have to import high cost energy. The rapid growth of the world's renewable energy sector is being led increasingly by developing and emerging nations. 95 developing countries have renewable energy development policies today, comprising the majority of the 138 countries with such policies around the world. The rise of support in the developing world contrasts with declining support and policy uncertainty in some industrialized economies, like Australia. Instead of placing the nation to take advantage of growth in the world renewable energy sector, our government's policies are ensuring Australia will be trampled in the rush. Great result - NOT!

    Renewables 2014 Global Status Report Highlights Another Year of Impressive Renewable Energy Growth | Worldwatch Institute

    Strong growth for renewables expected through to 2030 | Bloomberg New Energy Finance
    look at the score board loser! The tax has gone, if don't want to be labelled a hypocrite, donate your own money for the lost cause!
    Regards inter

  38. #11588
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    if don't want to be labelled a hypocrite, donate your own money for the lost cause!
    Thank you for your touching concern about my committing inadvertent hypocrisy. There is no need for you to worry on my account and I am probably doing enough to cover for you as well. My family and I do many things for the "lost cause", including investing in land for regeneration and conservation, running our suburban house on own own power and rainwater, growing much of our own food, and planting many 10,000s of trees.

    Oh - I wouldn't say that the Abbott Government's scoreboard is looking very good at all. The carbon "tax" may be gone and they have not been able to make up the lost revenue, but you are apparently happy to pay for that!
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    look at the score board loser! The tax has gone, if don't want to be labelled a hypocrite, donate your own money for the lost cause!
    Regards inter
    While ignoring the petty insult in the first sentence, how do you propose someone donate money to a repealed carbon tax, it would appear after 100's of ineffective posts you have absolutely no understanding of how either the tax works or how little it impacted on the average Australian.

  40. #11590
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    While ignoring the petty insult in the first sentence, how do you propose someone donate money to a repealed carbon tax, it would appear after 100's of ineffective posts you have absolutely no understanding of how either the tax works or how little it impacted on the average Australian.
    Waffle on all you like, all that matters is it's gone! One of your comrades supplied a link a page or so ago as to where you can donate your savings from the carbon tax, so now you don't have to be ignorant any more on the subject nor a hypocrite worrying about where the lost cause can still get some funds to keep nitwit followers hooked on the belief!
    regards inter

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    Intertd6, you should be able to have this debate without resorting to calling people "losers".

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    Wind generation supplied 43% of demand in SA in July. At times, there was more than 100% of demand available from wind. Wind has kept the wholesale price of electricity suppressed in SA, and SA is now a net exporter of electricity. SA has installed capacity of about 1500 MW as of a few weeks ago, with another 600 MW under construction and another ~600 MW approved for construction, plus 550MW of installed solar.

    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Waffle on all you like, all that matters is it's gone! One of your comrades supplied a link a page or so ago as to where you can donate your savings from the carbon tax, so now you don't have to be ignorant any more on the subject nor a hypocrite worrying about where the lost cause can still get some funds to keep nitwit followers hooked on the belief!
    regards inter
    No you could donate to a group defunded by the Federal government, no need to link it to anything at all. Watch out you're going communist on us, I don't think comrade is still used by anyone who has mentally been able to progress from the 1950's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Wind generation supplied 43% of demand in SA in July. At times, there was more than 100% of demand available from wind. Wind has kept the wholesale price of electricity suppressed in SA, and SA is now a net exporter of electricity. SA has installed capacity of about 1500 MW as of a few weeks ago, with another 600 MW under construction and another ~600 MW approved for construction, plus 550MW of installed solar.


    Just hook a generator to Inter I reckon he could manage enough hot air and wind to power a small town.

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    CO2 levels have reached 400 parts per million (ppm) for the first time in human existence. When CO2 levels were this high 15 to 20 million years ago, it was 2° to 5°C warmer globally and seas were also 25 to 40 metres higher than now. Anyone betting on a low sensitivity of the climate to carbon is literally betting against history. That means returning as quickly as possible back to 350 ppm is a vastly more rational course of action for a non-suicidal civilisation, than allowing carbon to climb relentlessly towards 1000 ppm. Bring back carbon trading!

    Climate Sensitivity Stunner: Last Time CO2 Levels Hit 400 Parts Per Million The Arctic Was 14°F Warmer! | ThinkProgress
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    400 ppm wow ! unprecedented, earth shattering! The end of life as we know it, we will literally choke to death gasping for oxygen .... burning to a crisp and drowning under 9?, 5?, you tell me how many meters of sea rise? (I lost count)

    Oh, and yes please do not forget to remind me that the sun back then when CO2 was sky high, the sun was actually switched off. it was replaced by LED very soft and mild. a real breeze.

    Come on guys, your claims are so undefensible that if they were part of a business presentation to raise capital for a new venture you would be laughed out the door.


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    Marc, could you just point out for us on your graph the period of human existence on earth or just the last three ice ages, where temp and CO2 levels varied significantly.

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    Cant believe this thread is still going. Love it!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Come on guys, your claims are so undefensible that if they were part of a business presentation to raise capital for a new venture you would be laughed out the door.

    Who is going to be laughed out the door? Someone with ridiculous claims? You mean ridiculous claims like this?:


    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    400 ppm wow ! unprecedented, earth shattering! The end of life as we know it, we will literally choke to death gasping for oxygen .... burning to a crisp and drowning under 9?, 5?, you tell me how many meters of sea rise? (I lost count)

    Oh, and yes please do not forget to remind me that the sun back then when CO2 was sky high, the sun was actually switched off. it was replaced by LED very soft and mild. a real breeze.
    You made those claims - not any scientific body studying climate change!
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Lewandowsky (2013) has already established that some deniers apt to believe some unscientific things; something that was obvious to anyone who has spent any time on the internet. However, just to remove any lingering doubts anyone might have, Eric Abetz chipped in with his contribution to the triumph of ideology over reality yesterday. The spin doctors are working overtime to reverse and rephrase what he said but expect the polls to reflect how the public see this circus.

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