Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #11951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    At this stage and with the amount of information available, it is difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the sincerity of those who still today support and defend this gargantuan fraud against the reality of climate change .
    I added the few words you left off, no need to thank me, you are quite welcome.

  2. #11952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    At this stage and with the amount of information available, it is difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the sincerity of those who still today support and defend this gargantuan fraud.
    It is pretty unequivocal which side of the "debate" the fraud is on. Why are you a supporter, Marc?

    "We've recorded all sorts of climate change shifts in multiple areas. However, the scientific process is consistent. Every single individual study that has been done, has gone through the same rigorous process, data collection, research analysis, and qualified peer review. At the moment, we've at least 10 000 different papers, completed over 20 years, each using different data sets, and they are all coming to the same climate change conclusions. We've a weight of evidence that the average person is simply not aware of - and this frightens me..."



    Shauna Murray
    Biological Scientist
    University of Technology Sydney, University of Tokyo, University of New South Wales
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  3. #11953
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    JohnC
    be aware that (inaccurately) putting words into your interviewee's mouth that diminish his reputation and expose him to "hatred, contempt, or aversion" can, in fact, be actionable.
    It is called libel.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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  4. #11954
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    The real cost of the windmill fraud:
    Politicians & Business Finally Waking Up to the Massive Costs of the LRET – STOP THESE THINGS
    Now, after over 13 years of operation, Coalition MPs – including lightweights like young Greg Hunt and Ian “Macca” Macfarlane – have finally dusted off their copies of the Renewable Energy (Electricity) Act 2000 to learn, apparently for the first time, that the LRET contains a mighty sting in the tail.

    The “sting” is the mandated shortfall charge of $65 per MWh which – under the current 41,000 GWh target – starts to impact from 2017. There is no way that the annual target set from 2017 (that escalates to 41,000 GWh in 2020, where it stays until 2031) will be met. Wind farm construction is almost at a standstill: “investment” in the construction of wind farms went from $2.69 billion in 2013 to a piddling $40 million this year (see this article).
    And, from here on, no retailer is going to sign a Power Purchase Agreement with a wind power outfit; which means hopeful wind farm developers will never get the finance needed to build any new wind farms (see our post here).Given current renewable capacity of 23,000 GWh – under the legislation – the shortfall charge (fine) starts to bite from 2017.
    Year Target GWh Shortfall GWh Penalty Cost
    2017 27,200 4,200 $273 million
    2018 31,800 8,800 $572 million
    2019 36,400 13,400 $871 million
    2020 41,000 18,000 $1.17 billion
    Total $2.886 billion
    The mandatory RET continues until 2031; and the $65 per MWh fine with it. That means power consumers will be paying around $1.17 billion every year from 2020 until the RET expires in 2031. In addition to the $2.886 billion in fines added to power bills (up to and including 2020) – between 2021 and 2031 – fines of almost $12 billion will be issued to retailers, recovered from power consumers and the proceeds pocketed by the Commonwealth.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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  5. #11955
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    Wind is a very successful and important component of a renewable energy grid. Despite the bleating naysayer here, renewable energy is taking the lead in reduced CO2 power generation and beating fossil fuel powered grids at their own game: reliability.

    Last Friday Germany’s grid regulator released the 2013 data for grid reliability, and the figures have renewable energy advocates crowing. The latest numbers (released in German) reveal no sign of growing instability despite record levels of renewable energy on the grid — 28.5 percent of the power supplied in the first half of 2014. In fact, Germany's grid is one of the world's most reliable.
    According to the Bundesnetzagentur, unplanned outages left the average German consumer without electricity for 15.32 minutes in 2013, down from 15.91 minutes in 2012 and 21.53 minutes in 2006. The performance, using the power industry's System Average Interruption Duration Index (SAIDI), affirms Germany's place in the top five for grid reliability for European countries.
    German grid reliability, meanwhile, far outstrips the best SAIDI results delivered by U.S. and Canadian utilities. The top quartile of SAIDI results captured by last year's North American reliability benchmarking exercise by the IEEE Power & Energy Society, for example, had consumers without power for an average of 93 minutes — six times longer than outages experienced by the average German consumer.
    Germany's Grid: Renewables-Rich and Rock-Solid - IEEE Spectrum

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  6. #11956
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    There is no way that the annual target set from 2017 (that escalates to 41,000 GWh in 2020, where it stays until 2031) will be met. Wind farm construction is almost at a standstill: “investment” in the construction of wind farms went from $2.69 billion in 2013 to a piddling $40 million this year
    And the reason for this was?

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  7. #11957
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    At this stage and with the amount of information available, it is difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the sincerity of those who still today support and defend this gargantuan fraud.
    Please quote peer reviewed science to back up your claim that the acceptance of AGW is a fraud.

    The amount of supporting information behind our understanding of humankind's effect on the planet is overwhelming, despite the inability of some to alter their opinions in line with the facts before their eyes.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  8. #11958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    JohnC
    It is called libel.
    Don't be absurd, it is not libel, either develop a sense of humour or stop posting cut and pastes that are full of lies and misquotes, clearly you are not interested in truth or accuracy at any time.

  9. #11959
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    libel1)n.topublishinprint(includingpictures),writingorbroadcastthroughradio,televisionorfilm,anuntruthaboutanotherwhichwilldoharmtothatpersonorhis/herreputation,bytendingtobringthetargetintoridicule,hatred,scornorcontemptofothers.

    When the ridicule is a result of self-published statements, it's not libel.
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    Germany is certainly doing well with wind power (at generating money), at least for someone.

    What next for troubled Bard? | Windpower Monthly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Germany is certainly doing well with wind power (at generating money), at least for someone.

    What next for troubled Bard? | Windpower Monthly
    A large construction project with budget and schedule problems, gee, never heard of that happening before. Lucky the Germans have a reliable supply of Russian gas piped through the Ukraine, nothing likely to go wrong there.
    And WUWT is all pure gospel, every word.

  12. #11962
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilT2 View Post
    And WUWT is all pure gospel, every word.
    WUWT is never blogged down with factual representation...
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  13. #11963
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    WUWT is never blogged down with factual representation...

    Nice! attack WUWT. The most popular site on the web for global warming!!
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  14. #11964
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    COMPARING THE COSTS OF
    INTERMITTENT AND DISPATCHABLE
    ELECTRICITY GENERATING TECHNOLOGIES

    Introduction and Summary*
    This paper makes a very simple point regarding the proper methods for comparing the economic value
    of intermittent generating technologies (e.g. wind and solar) with the economic value of traditional
    dispatchable generating technologies (e.g. CCGT, coal, nuclear). I show that the prevailing approach
    that relies on comparisons of the “levelized cost” per MWh supplied by different generating
    technologies, or any other measure of total life-cycle production costs per MWh supplied, is seriously
    flawed. It is flawed because it effectively treats all MWhs supplied as a homogeneous product
    governed by the law of one price. Specifically, traditional levelized cost comparisons fail to take
    account of the fact that the value (wholesale market price) of electricity supplied varies widely over
    the course of a typical year. The difference between the high and the low hourly prices over the course
    of a typical year, including capacity payments for generating capacity available to supply power
    during critical peak hours, can be up to four orders of magnitude (Joskow 2008). It is important to take
    wholesale market price variations into account because the hourly output profiles, and the associated
    market value of electricity supplied, of intermittent generating technologies and competing
    dispatchable generating technologies can be very different. Moreover, different intermittent generating
    technologies (e.g. wind vs. solar) also can have very different hourly production and market value
    profiles, and indeed, specific intermittent generating units using the same technology (e.g. wind) may
    have very different production profiles depending on where they are located.1
    Wholesale electricity
    prices reach extremely high levels for a relatively small number of hours each year (see Figure 1) and
    generating units that are not able to supply electricity to balance supply and demand at those times are
    (or should be) at an economic disadvantage. These high-priced hours account for a large fraction of
    the quasi-rents that allow investors in generating capacity to recover their investment costs (Joskow
    2008) and failing properly to account for output during these critical hours will lead to incorrect
    economic evaluations of different generating technologies.
    In a nutshell, electricity that can be supplied by a wind generator at a levelized cost of 6˘/KWh is
    not “cheap” if the output is available primarily at night when the market value of electricity is only
    2.5˘/KWh. Similarly, a combustion turbine with a low expected capacity factor and a levelized cost of
    25˘/KWh is not necessarily “expensive” if it can be called on reliably to supply electricity during all
    hours when the market price is greater than 25˘/KWh.
    http://cadmus.eui.eu/bitstream/handl...5.pdf?sequence
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Nice! attack WUWT. The most popular site on the web for global warming!!
    Correction. The most popular site on the web for global warming misinformation!!

    Oh, how about a fact check on Anthony Watt's "most popular" claim? Not even close - who wudda thort???

    Climate.nasa.gov has received an estimated 9,713,400 visits over the last 30 days.

    Centre for Atmospheric Science (The Centre for Atmospheric Science at the University of Cambridge) has received an estimated 2,312,000 visits over the last 30 days.

    National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) | The world's largest active archive of weather and climate data producing and supplying data and publications for the world. has received an estimated 13,057,000 visits over the last 30 days.

    Climatechange.gc.ca has received an estimated 20,607,000 visits over the last 30 days.

    Earthobservatory.nasa.gov has received an estimated 9,713,400 visits over the last 30 days.

    wattsupwiththat.com has received an estimated 1,804,300 visits over the last 30 days.

    http://www.trafficestimate.com
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  16. #11966
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    The author of Marcs cut an paste is Prof Paul Joskow, an economist from MIT. He supports legislation to reduce CO2 emissions and believes that the correct policies will not have a severe impact on the economy. Google has a number of his articles available; try this one to start with.
    http://economics.mit.edu/files/5509

  17. #11967
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilT2 View Post
    The author of Marcs cut an paste is Prof Paul Joskow, an economist from MIT. He supports legislation to reduce CO2 emissions and believes that the correct policies will not have a severe impact on the economy. Google has a number of his articles available; try this one to start with.
    http://economics.mit.edu/files/5509
    If Marc had read the paper, he may not have been so enthusiastic to cut and paste an out of context summary that does not support his previously stated position LOL.

    "I do not opine here on whether the policies for promoting renewable generating technologies are good or bad, but focus on the appropriate methods for evaluating their costs and benefits."

    The paper was written some years ago and does not represent the current circumstances in mature renewable markets such as South Australia and Europe, in any case.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  18. #11968
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    At this stage and with the amount of information available, it is difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the sincerity of those who still today support and defend this gargantuan fraud. A few decades ago people use to be straight forward about their confession and wear a red T shirt with Che Guevara on it.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
    John Adams

  19. #11969
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    At this stage and with the amount of information available, it is difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the sincerity of those who still today support and defend this gargantuan fraud. A few decades ago people use to be straight forward about their confession and wear a red T shirt with Che Guevara on it.
    Global warming as a result of anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions is unequivocal. What is your sincerity level given you support the fraudsters?

    Reminder, its now been 353 consecutive months since the last cooler-than-average month on planet Earth, based on the 1961 to 1990 average. That was back in February 1985.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  20. #11970
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    Give Marc credit I guess, rather than argue science his views seem to be mainly supported by references to religion and politics so he is consistent. This is the problem, if you can convince yourself that it is ok to ignore science on the basis you think the other side is making it up you don't have to look any further to hold your position. This covers the rump that refute the science, hand over eyes don't look for goodness sake and don't mention science, well not the part coming from those working in it, just the odd one on the fringe that three per cent that keep the faith going that it isn't happening.

  21. #11971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    A few decades ago people use to be straight forward about their confession and wear a red T shirt with Che Guevara on it.
    Who's on yours?
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

  22. #11972
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    Ayn Rand?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  23. #11973
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Ayn Rand?
    That made me giggle...

    ...and make me think that Ignatius J Reilly might also be appropriate. Until I realised that it'd just be an artists impression and so not in keeping with the original train of thought.
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

  24. #11974
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    Especially for Marc:

    Coal industry scientists say wind turbines could blow the Earth right into the sun.

    In The Know: Coal Lobby Warns Wind Farms May Blow Earth Off Orbit | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  25. #11975
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    Al Gore vs. Reality on Planetary Ice Caps and Global Warming | CCD
    Written by Chris Banescu, American Thinker on 16 September 2014.

    It appears that reality is not cooperating with the myth that man-made CO2 is causing global warming. Recent satellite images show that both the Arctic and the Antarctic sea ice have dramatically increased in size and thickness.
    Despite Al Gore’s 2007 apocalyptic predictions that in just 7 more years the Arctic ice cap will be “completely gone,” it has instead dramatically increased by 43% in size since 2012. The North Pole ice cap grew by 1.715 million square kilometers, an area the size of Alaska, in the last two years. In solidarity, the South Pole ice cap has also reached record-breaking levels, and not stands at 20 million square kilometers, the highest level since records began.
    Al Gore (2007): "The [Arctic] ice cap is falling off a cliff. It could be completely gone in summer in as little as 7 years from now."
    Reality (2014):
    ARCTIC Ice Cap: Ice sheet growth has been dramatic. The North Pole ice cover has reached 5.62 million square kilometers. “This was the highest level recorded on that date since 2006 and represents an increase of 1.71 million square kilometres over the past two years” an impressive 43 percent.
    ANTARCTIC Sea Ice Cap: “Scientists have declared a new record has been set for the extent of Antarctic sea ice since records began. Satellite imagery reveals an area of about 20 million square kilometers covered by sea ice around the Antarctic continent. That is roughly double the size of the Antarctic continent and about three times the size of Australia.”
    Our planet’s actual climate continues to expose the fraud and junk science that Al Gore and other Global Warming cult followers have been spreading over the last few decades. Scientific observations show that there’s been no increased global warming for the last 17 years. None of the hysterical weather predictions and doomsday climate scenarios Al Gore and his minions promised us ever materialized.
    Of course, it may be that our weather satellites have been compromised by the Koch brothers and both the North and South Poles are now part of the vast right-wing conspiracy. After all, in Al Gore’s universe anything is possible!
    Source

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  26. #11976
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    On the anniversary of Climategate the Watermelons show their true colours – Telegraph Blogs

    Indeed, the fraud was conceived as a fraud, was always a fraud is a fraud and will remain a fraud. The watermelons and assorted cheerleaders rejoice.
    Not for long though....
    If you ever had any doubt that the global warming fraud is anything but political, read the following demented statement by global warming alarmist in chief.

    as
    Edenhoffer so helpfully puts it it Neue Zurcher Zeitung: (H/T Global Warming Policy Foundation):
    First of all, developed countries have basically expropriatedthe atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.

    also...

    I would give you the link to the Times article in which Ben Webster's interview appears, but sadly it's hidden behind a paywall. Still, Watts Up With That has the gist:

    Lord Stern said that Europe and the Far East (sic) were forging ahead of the US in controlling emissions and switching to low carbon sources of energy. They would not tolerate having their industries undermined by American competitors that had not paid for their emissions. “If you are charging properly for carbon and other people are not, you will take that into account,” he said. “Many of the more forward-looking people in the US are thinking about this. If they see a danger on the trade front to US exports that could influence public discussion.”
    Asked what type of US products could face restrictions, Lord Stern said: “Aircraft, clearly, some cars, machine tools — it’s not simply what’s in the capital good, it’s what kind of processes the capital good is facilitating."

    Meantime the world keeps on cooling. The bureau of meteorology will not be able to keep on "homogenising" (read falsifying) the temperature data to turn a cooling trend into a warming for much longer.
    The fraud will soon be so evident that it will have to be changed into something more credible. What will it be? I can not wait to see what they will come up next, and how quickly the corrupt vote hungry politician will run to embrace it "for our own good".



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  27. #11977
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    watermelons.jpg
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post

    Despite Al Gore’s 2007 apocalyptic predictions that in just 7 more years the Arctic ice cap will be “completely gone,” it has instead dramatically increased by 43% in size since 2012. The North Pole ice cap grew by 1.715 million square kilometers, an area the size of Alaska, in the last two years. In solidarity, the South Pole ice cap has also reached record-breaking levels, and not stands at 20 million square kilometers, the highest level since records began.
    View the context of this stroke of climate change denial ideology:



    2012 was a record low. We have a thirty year average on the chart and every year since has been pushing or more than two standard deviations below that average. Cherry picking a low year for Arctic ice is exactly the same as cherry picking a high year for surface temperature.

    It's tiresome to have to repeat it, but two years is not climate, even if it appeases your opinion.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  29. #11979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    On the anniversary of Climategate the Watermelons show their true colours – Telegraph Blogs

    Indeed, the fraud was conceived as a fraud, was always a fraud is a fraud and will remain a fraud. The watermelons and assorted cheerleaders rejoice.
    Not for long though....
    If you ever had any doubt that the global warming fraud is anything but political, read the following demented statement by global warming alarmist in chief.

    as
    Edenhoffer so helpfully puts it it Neue Zurcher Zeitung: (H/T Global Warming Policy Foundation):
    First of all, developed countries have basically expropriatedthe atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.

    also...

    I would give you the link to the Times article in which Ben Webster's interview appears, but sadly it's hidden behind a paywall. Still, Watts Up With That has the gist:

    Lord Stern said that Europe and the Far East (sic) were forging ahead of the US in controlling emissions and switching to low carbon sources of energy. They would not tolerate having their industries undermined by American competitors that had not paid for their emissions. “If you are charging properly for carbon and other people are not, you will take that into account,” he said. “Many of the more forward-looking people in the US are thinking about this. If they see a danger on the trade front to US exports that could influence public discussion.”
    Asked what type of US products could face restrictions, Lord Stern said: “Aircraft, clearly, some cars, machine tools — it’s not simply what’s in the capital good, it’s what kind of processes the capital good is facilitating."

    Meantime the world keeps on cooling. The bureau of meteorology will not be able to keep on "homogenising" (read falsifying) the temperature data to turn a cooling trend into a warming for much longer.
    The fraud will soon be so evident that it will have to be changed into something more credible. What will it be? I can not wait to see what they will come up next, and how quickly the corrupt vote hungry politician will run to embrace it "for our own good".



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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Al Gore vs. Reality on Planetary Ice Caps and Global Warming | CCD
    Written by Chris Banescu, American Thinker on 16 September 2014.

    It appears that reality is not cooperating with the myth that man-made CO2 is causing global warming. Recent satellite images show that both the Arctic and the Antarctic sea ice have dramatically increased in size and thickness.
    Despite Al Gore’s 2007 apocalyptic predictions that in just 7 more years the Arctic ice cap will be “completely gone,” it has instead dramatically increased by 43% in size since 2012. The North Pole ice cap grew by 1.715 million square kilometers, an area the size of Alaska, in the last two years. In solidarity, the South Pole ice cap has also reached record-breaking levels, and not stands at 20 million square kilometers, the highest level since records began.
    Al Gore (2007): "The [Arctic] ice cap is falling off a cliff. It could be completely gone in summer in as little as 7 years from now."
    Reality (2014):
    ARCTIC Ice Cap: Ice sheet growth has been dramatic. The North Pole ice cover has reached 5.62 million square kilometers. “This was the highest level recorded on that date since 2006 and represents an increase of 1.71 million square kilometres over the past two years” an impressive 43 percent.
    ANTARCTIC Sea Ice Cap: “Scientists have declared a new record has been set for the extent of Antarctic sea ice since records began. Satellite imagery reveals an area of about 20 million square kilometers covered by sea ice around the Antarctic continent. That is roughly double the size of the Antarctic continent and about three times the size of Australia.”
    Our planet’s actual climate continues to expose the fraud and junk science that Al Gore and other Global Warming cult followers have been spreading over the last few decades. Scientific observations show that there’s been no increased global warming for the last 17 years. None of the hysterical weather predictions and doomsday climate scenarios Al Gore and his minions promised us ever materialized.
    Of course, it may be that our weather satellites have been compromised by the Koch brothers and both the North and South Poles are now part of the vast right-wing conspiracy. After all, in Al Gore’s universe anything is possible!
    Source

    And what is the cause for that and how do you balance massive summer ice loss against record winter ice gain? I'll give you a hint it is to do with wind, why is it that this article doesn't mention that the increase only applies to sea ice while land ice continues to show a reducing trend, the omission is just to convenient to be accidental. This cut and paste is interesting in what it doesn't contain rather than what it does and illustrates the dishonesty of bias arrived at by selective quoting. Not even a nice try and certainly no cigar.

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    The Anatomy of climate fraud

    Here is the reality:


    Antarctica’s ice loss: 19 May 2014. Three years of observations from ESA’s CryoSat satellite show that the Antarctic ice sheet is now losing 159 billion tonnes of ice each year – twice as much as when it was last surveyed.

    CryoSat finds sharp increase in Antarctica’s ice losses / CryoSat / Observing the Earth / Our Activities / ESA

    Yet here is a fraudulent counter claim by some cretin in the blogosphere (If you doubt the blogger is a cretin, here is his personal blog: The Voice Blog - Bearing Witness to the Truth), reposted unthinkingly in this forum :
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    It appears that reality is not cooperating with the myth that man-made CO2 is causing global warming. Recent satellite images show that both the Arctic and the Antarctic sea ice have dramatically increased in size and thickness.
    As the denial machine to kicks into gear, more minions come to the fray and make posts such as:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    And the FRAUD is perpetuated...

    Thanks guys





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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    the increase only applies to sea ice while land ice continues to show a reducing trend, the omission is just to convenient to be accidental. This cut and paste is interesting in what it doesn't contain rather than what it does and illustrates the dishonesty of bias arrived at by selective quoting.
    Only a person setting out to perpetuate the fraud that the sea ice increasing in extent is more significant that ice loss could overlook this - here is a clue to the relative significance of antarctic sea ice extent versus antarctic ice volume:

    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    The Anatomy of climate fraud

    Here is the reality:


    Antarctica’s ice loss: 19 May 2014. Three years of observations from ESA’s CryoSat satellite show that the Antarctic ice sheet is now losing 159 billion tonnes of ice each year – twice as much as when it was last surveyed.

    CryoSat finds sharp increase in Antarctica’s ice losses / CryoSat / Observing the Earth / Our Activities / ESA

    Yet here is a fraudulent counter claim by some cretin in the blogosphere (If you doubt the blogger is a cretin, here is his personal blog: The Voice Blog - Bearing Witness to the Truth), reposted unthinkingly in this forum :
    As the denial machine to kicks into gear, more minions come to the fray and make posts such as:


    And the FRAUD is perpetuated...

    Thanks guys





    Your welcome. Happy to perpetuate any time!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Your welcome. Happy to perpetuate any time!
    Really? What purpose are you serving helping to perpetuate fraudulent claims?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Your welcome. Happy to perpetuate any time!
    The fact that you openly support fraud does you no credit, perhaps it would pay to think carefully before you respond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    The fact that you openly support fraud does you no credit, perhaps it would pay to think carefully before you respond.
    Only you guys think its a fraud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Only you guys think its a fraud.
    We don’t get to choose the truth about climate change - popular debate does not decide the scientific facts. Deniers love to frame this as a “debate” when none exists.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    We don’t get to choose the truth about climate change - popular debate does not decide the scientific facts. Deniers love to frame this as a “debate” when none exists.
    Wow oh Wow LOL really? You call us deniers!! The truth about climate change.......... hmm now I wonder what that is?

    Facts you say we know the facts and they don't support the fear mongering of ALARMIST that's for sure. One fact for you is the feed back loops in the climate models that forms the basis of runaway global warming are a joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    You call us deniers!!
    That appears to be a self assessment. Where did I call you a denier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    The truth about climate change.......... hmm now I wonder what that is?
    The truth is in the evidence, the evidence that is being fraudulently misrepresented by climate change deniers in a way you said here #11983 you were happy to perpetuate. Climate is unequivocally changing as a result of human activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    the facts and they don't support the fear mongering of ALARMIST that's for sure.
    I challenge you to find an example of an "alarmist" statement by a regular participant of this forum who understands AGW is actually happening. Nice try at moving the goal posts BTW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    One fact for you is the feed back loops in the climate models that forms the basis of runaway global warming are a joke.
    Models are irrelevant to whether the climate is changing. It has been 353 consecutive months since the last cooler-than-average month, based on the 1961 to 1990 average. Global warming is not a joke. It is foolish to think that rapid climate change is harmless or beneficial to the well being of humanity.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Dr Karl’s Klimate Krap…

    18 September, 2014 by Simon 4 Comments




    More Klimate Krap
    Dr Karl is on a krappy Krusade… to keep the warming scare going.
    Rusted-on warmists like Dr Karl have invested so much emotional energy in their substitute religion that when the evidence no longer fits their theory, they just, er, ignore the evidence. It’s tragic to see a supposed “scientist” in such a confused state of cognitive dissonance:
    In general, scientists are a pretty mild and inoffensive bunch. But over the last decade, one specific group of scientists has come in for a lot of criticism. So let’s dive into the topic of ‘the pause in global warming’.
    In the USA, the Wall Street Journal wrote, “temperatures have been flat for 15 years – nobody can properly explain it.”
    Another newspaper from the same stable, the UK Daily Mail wrote “global warming ‘pause’ may last 20 more years, and Arctic sea ice has already started to recover”. Both of these statements are very reassuring, but unfortunately, very very wrong.
    With regard to this ‘pause’, there are two major claims made by those who deny the science of climate change.
    The first one is that the climate is actually cooling – not warming. This is incorrect.
    The second claim is that after some previous warming, the global climate is now constant, and neither warming nor cooling. In other words, that the climate is in a kind of holding pattern, or haitus. This is also incorrect.
    You can read the rest here, but quite frankly, save your time. Rather than accept that something is going on that the models failed to predict, Dr Karl would rather stick his fingers in his ears and shout “La, la, la!” Pretty much like the ABC in general, really…
    Share this
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    The Oceans Ate Global Warming?

    Written by Jonathon Moseley, American Thnker on 15 September 2014.
    In Alice in Wonderland, by Lewis Carroll, Alice says she cannot believe impossible things. The Queen of Hearts is surprised: “When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
    Therefore, suppose we compare two events:

    1. Global warming advocates argue that the oceans are absorbing the extra heat that their computer models predicted, which has mysteriously vanished. The missing heat over the last 18 years has been going into the oceans.
    2. Yet, the Arctic Sea Ice Cap aound the North Pole has grown by 43% since 2012. As confirmed by satellites from orbit, the Arctic ice pack has grown by 1.715 million square kilometers in the last two years, as reported in England’s Daily Mail. That is the size of the truly massive state of Alaska.

    So, might we ask a question? Yes, you with your hand up.
    If the Earth hasn’t warmed for the last 18 years because the predicted heat is going into the oceans, then why is there 43% more ice in the last two years? If you add heat to water containing ice, doesn’t the ice normally melt? Does it normally freeze over, creating more ice? The Oceans Ate Global Warming? | CCD

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    And if you forgot that Global Warming is actually a religion, listen to this demented nonsense
    Should the US protect Muslim countries from global warming? : Prime time : SunNews Video Gallery
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    If the Earth hasn’t warmed for the last 18 years because the predicted heat is going into the oceans, then why is there 43% more ice in the last two years?
    Indeed. The first problem with your statement is that the earth has continued to warm. The second problem is that there is not more ice volume in the past two years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    If you add heat to water containing ice, doesn’t the ice normally melt?
    Mightn't that depend on whether the water being warmed was in the same location as the water with the ice in it? Wouldn't want to get hung up on inconvenient details...

    World continues to warm:


    Arctic sea ice falls far faster than models predicted:



    No significant recovery in sea ice in the last two years:

    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  44. #11994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    listen to this demented nonsense
    Got to agree with you Marc, the whole "interview" (which has the hallmarks of actually being scripted and rehearsed) is demented nonsense.

    BTW, I don't agree with the statement of John Kerry anymore than I expect you would, but it does not change the reality of climate change whether Kerry is a nutter or not.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  45. #11995
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    And John Kerry does not believe what he himself is saying either.

    The "reality" of global [may or may not be] warming is as follows:

    Someone more clever than you and me, worked out that there is a large number of people who have a personality that makes them likely to "follow" an idea that places blame of whatever you can think of on those who are well off. Marx was a clever person but attempting to blame naturally occurring climate variations on the rich is way more clever.

    Mixing a tad of true with a lot of baloney is an old strategy and so came your hero Al Gore that after his many political failures and a lot of time to machinate something new. "A convenient lie" was born and with the inside knowledge of mass manipulation that only an ex politician has at his fingertips, he plotted and lied and plotted and lied again so convincingly that he got a Nobel prize.

    Never mind that in his chart temperature variations lag behind CO2 changes by a several hundreds of years, all you do is change the scale and voila! they go hand in hand.

    With the ball rolling, the crowd of dissatisfied watermelons with nothing to do rolled behind en mass. The politicians worked out fast that there are votes to be harvested by talking up an imaginary threat from global [may be] warming, the wind and solar and wave and you name it industry who was starved for funds for decades, saw their dawn coming and jumped in grabbing subsidies galore. The mercenary scientist who worked out that being skeptical about an unproven hypothesis would cost them their job, put the mortgage before ethics and scientific principles and clapped along looking the other way.

    With only conservatives to protest and retired or independent scientist to provide skeptical views, the story of the biggest con in human history was born. Just like the many religions made up to control the masses, a new modern religion is controlling the millions of dissatisfied and pretend altruist that walk this earth (altruist with other peoples money that is).

    The new religion determines their votes, use their dissent against conservatives and industry, manipulate funds and subsidies, control "scientific" studies and unfortunately, distracts from the real environmental problems. Industry gets away with poisoning our food and water because there is a pretend imaginary greater good, the world temperature! As if we had the power to turn the knob and adjust it at will. Even if we did made a difference in the temperature, to think that we can reverse it is so naive that beggars belief.

    Of course human presence makes a difference. Anything makes a difference to everything. A butterfly flapping its wing makes a difference, everything is interconnected and billions of humans building and doing everything we do changes everything over and over. You only have to ride a motorbike in winter from the country into the city or even a small town to feel the change in temperature on your skin.

    Does it mean we can reverse this? Sure, lets demolish everything we have ever built, and then commit mass suicide to return the world to how it was. Will that be possible? No, nothing will turn back to how it was, the world changes and rolls forward and adapts to changes with its multiple and unknown mechanism to adapt to ever occurring changes. There are a lot of things we can do to better our environment, from regulating the food industry with proper rules, jail the coal seam gas industry board and politicians who grant them licenses there are many things that can be done for the right reasons.

    Turn the economy on its head in order to reduce CO2 in order to achieve nothing at all at an astronomical cost is not one of them.
    The global (yea right) warming agitators deserve a better cause. May be soon someone will work out one for them.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    353 consecutive months since the last cooler-than-average month.

    Plenty of watermelons on both "sides" BTW.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    353 consecutive months since the last cooler-than-average month.

    Plenty of watermelons on both "sides" BTW.

    How ingenious.. it depends on where and how you take your average from for this to mean anything at all.

    Load of absolute rubbish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    353 consecutive months since the last cooler-than-average month.

    Plenty of watermelons on both "sides" BTW.
    one only has to have the intelligence to read a graph rather than be an idiot & swallow the propaganda.
    regards inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    How ingenious.. it depends on where and how you take your average from for this to mean anything at all.
    Relative to the average global surface temperature from 1961 to 1990. If out were relative to the average since records began, the period of no months with a less than average temperature would be a lot longer.

    With records dating back to 1880, the global temperature across the world's land and ocean surfaces for August 2014 was 0.75°C (1.35°F) higher than the 20th century average of 15.6°C (60.1°F). This makes August 2014 the warmest August on record for the globe since records began in 1880, beating the previous record set in 1998.

    Nine of the 10 warmest Augusts on record have occurred during the 21st century.

    Additionally, August 2014 marked the 38th consecutive August with a temperature above the 20th century average.

    The last below-average global temperature for August occurred in 1976.

    Global Analysis - August 2014 | State of the Climate | National Climatic Data Center (NCDC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Load of absolute rubbish.
    If you have better information, please share it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    one only has to have the intelligence to read a graph rather than be an idiot & swallow the propaganda.
    Welcome back. Looking forward to more intelligent contributions and insight from your quarter.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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