Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #12151
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Nine billion people are expected to be living on the planet in 25 years and food production will need to spike in order to feed them.

    At the biggest climate conference in history, more than 20 Governments, and 30 organizations and companies announced they would join the newly launched Global Alliance for Climate-Smart Agriculture, which aims to enable 500 million farmers worldwide to practice climate-smart agriculture.

    A similar initiative in North-American will be launched in 2015 to help farmers adapt and improve resilience to climate change.

    Several major companies, including Kellogg's, McDonald's, L’Oréal and Nestlé were among those who signed an ambitious pledge at the New York summit on Tuesday.

    Major corporations have committed to increase the amount of food in their supply chains that are produced with climate-smart approaches - an important step to curb carbon emissions.

    Walmart, the world’s largest grocery store, sells 70 million tonnes of food annually. McDonald’s buys two per cent of the world’s beef, a major source of agricultural greenhouse gas production.

    Signed by more than 150 corporate, government, and civil-society groups, meeting these goals would cut between 4.5 billion and 8.8 billion tons of carbon pollution every year — about as much as the total annual emissions for the U.S., according to the document.

    The agreement marks a growing shift in efforts by corporations to promote sustainability efforts. Environmental issues are becoming more urgent for companies, as climate change begins to affect their bottom line.
    And the worst part of propaganda is the long winded soapbox follower variety, it's morning & I'm almost back to a non rapid eye sleep phase! And a global plague of people is going to end well!
    inter

  2. #12152
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    And the worst part of propaganda is the long winded soapbox follower variety
    Funny, you've never mentioned that to Marc, the forum's greatest A-grade offender...

    I posted the information because it is relevant to the discussions over the past few weeks about the impacts that climate change is having on agriculture.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Funny, you've never mentioned that to Marc, the forum's greatest A-grade offender...

    who cares?

    I posted the information because it is relevant to the discussions over the past few weeks about the impacts that climate change is having on agriculture.

    and any normal person could work out this is just a pure propaganda red herring ploy to lead away from the fact that you have been shown up being not able to prove CO2 can, has, or will ever cause catastrophic or dangerous warming

    You are welcome to contribute to the discussion, but please leave rule enforcement to the the mods.
    The old crying about the rule enforcement ploy again, you certainly have a very peculiar grasp on the ridiculous coming out with stuff like that, what's even funnier is it I didn't work last time or the times before that!
    inter

  4. #12154
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    Fair enough. I have edited the post.

    Care to make a post on the subject, instead of yet another a post about your perception of my personal inadequacies, just for a change?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  5. #12155
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    must be something in it! Your bunch seem to thrive on it besides the auto pleasure it gives you!
    inter
    Ok boys out of the gutter, I did not mean it literally. Sorry I made the comment.

    Just a short way of saying that this is just lip service to appease and make everyone feel good and that something positive has been achieved.

    It will mean jack in real terms. But all these companies can say, "look at moi, look at moi" No wonder they all beat the same drum.
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  6. #12156
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    It was a very clever red herring of them using selected posts to divert attention away from their dying CO2 debate.
    inter

  7. #12157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    It will mean jack in real terms.
    Having had a peripheral involvement in agricultural research and land management for the past 40 years, I cannot agree with your view.

    Global warming and climate change has already affected agriculture and is so blatantly obvious to growers and farmers that there is already considerable urgency in adaption across the agricultural and horticultural industries world-wide. People on the ground don't need reports from committees and do-gooders to know what is staring them in the face every day.

    But to get governments to act does need campaigns to overcome bureaucratic torpidity, and that is one of the objectives of the UN Climate Smart program. (I am not enamoured with the name, either.)
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Having had a peripheral involvement in agricultural research and land management for the past 40 years, I cannot agree with your view.

    Global warming and climate change has already affected agriculture and is so blatantly obvious to growers and farmers that there is already considerable urgency in adaption across the agricultural and horticultural industries world-wide. People on the ground don't need reports from committees and do-gooders to know what is staring them in the face every day.

    But to get governments to act does need campaigns to overcome bureaucratic torpidity, and that is one of the objectives of the UN Climate Smart program. (I am not enamoured with the name, either.)
    Having come from a farming family, who are still farming I am well aware of shifting seasons and the like. There is always a quest going on for more resilient crops and hardier seed, adaptability to rainfall etc. It is an ongoing thing. Always will be and in fact we are getting very good at it.

    We don't need a climate change conference to confirm what is already happening and will always be going on. Of course people will always be on the look out for more funding and grants to work with. So yeah lets whoop it up and get the cash. There is NO reason for these people NOT to whip up a frenzy on this, NONE AT ALL.
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  9. #12159
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    Now, back to Kerry's question: What is the worst that could happen if governments, to use Al Gore's clumsy phrase, fight global warming?
    Here are a few unpleasant consequences:
    • Last year, the Stern Review on the Economics of Social Change said policies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions will slice two to four percentage points of economic growth each year over the next 10.
    • Spain lost 2.2 jobs elsewhere in its economy for each green job it created with its green energy program.
    • Germany dropped its green energy initiative, which was beset by "massive expenditures" while showing "little long-term promise for stimulating the economy, protecting the environment or increasing energy security," a German university economic paper reported.
    • Rules already in place will cost the economy $2.23 trillion from 2015 to 2038. They will also kill 600,000 jobs and slash a family of four's yearly income by $1,200 by 2023, according to the Heritage Foundation.
    • Legislation that would cut carbon dioxide emissions 80% by 2050 would cause an aggregate income loss to the U.S. of $207.8 trillion by 2100, according to Heritage research.
    • An International Energy Agency estimate says that cutting global emissions by half by 2050 would cost $45 trillion.
    Kerry, of course, claimed green policies will "put millions of people to work transitioning our energy" and "give ourselves greater security through greater energy independence." But we've seen what happens when government pours taxpayers' money into projects such as Solyndra, Ener1 and Beacon Power. It's a colossal waste of resources.
    The worst that can happen? The ugly mess left behind by those who say they're trying to save the earth.
    Source
    http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/expect-the-worst-if-governments-address-global-warming.html
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    So the underlying meaning of what you are saying Marc is that:


    • The cost of 2 - 4% off economic growth is far less than the hit to economic growth as a result of disruption if global warming isn't stopped.
    • Spain would have lost at least 45% MORE jobs without its green energy program.
    • Germany's green energy initiative has been so successful that the government has been able to taper off the stimulus.
    • As a result of rules already in place, families will SAVE MORE off their annual energy bills than the cost of the rules to their net annual income.
    • The income loss as a result of cutting CO2 over the next 85 years is far lower than the cost of adapting to climate change.
    • Ditto for the next 35 years.


    On every measure, most people will be far better off if governments act on climate change. Sounds almost too good to be true, but it must be true because you posted it!
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Having come from a farming family, who are still farming I am well aware of shifting seasons and the like.
    This is more than shifting seasons. I have friends on the land from Tarcoola in the west, Parachilna in the north, Wirrabara and Jamestown (where I was born) in the mid north, The Tothills north of Adelaide (near Waterloo wind farm and where I share own property with some local farmers), Penola in the South East, the Adelaide Hills, McLaren Vale, Kangaroo Island and Bordertown in the east. They are running sheep, beef and dairy cattle, bees, growing grapes, apples, kiwi fruit, cherries, wheat, beans, vegetables, canola, olives, strawberries and so on.

    Without exception, these landowners and farmers have noticed sudden and disruptive alternations to climate patterns over the past few years. Changes to the frequency of rainfall (many fewer days of rain), the direction that rain comes from (no longer predominantly the south west), milder winters that interfere with fruit set, increased severity of storms causing crop damage, severe summer heat waves that kill trees and plants which don't have cooling systems and can't move into the shade like animals, to mention a few of the observations.

    Horticulturalists and vignerons are having to resort to covering entire broad-acre orchards and vineyards with horticultural shade cloth to prevent catastrophic damage not just to the summer crop, but the trees and vines as well.

    We have just had a state-wide fire ban a couple of weeks out of winter - unheard of in my lifetime. No one I know who depends on the land for their livelihood has any doubt about the disruptive climate change that has already occurred. I do not doubt that there are land owners who do not believe in AGW, but so what?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  12. #12162
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    Yes, it reminds me of a manufacturing operation I had back in the 80ties with a business partner who was a 7DAdventist. He use to argue in a similar fashion and with similar groundless, unsubstantiated unproven and unsupported arguments, with vehement conviction and in an agitated state that we should keep the Sabbath, and that it should be Saturday and not Sunday....yes, ground braking news that about the change in the weather. We must all curl up and die.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Yes, it reminds me of a manufacturing operation I had back in the 80ties with a business partner who was a 7DAdventist. He use to argue in a similar fashion and with similar groundless, unsubstantiated unproven and unsupported arguments, with vehement conviction and in an agitated state that we should keep the Sabbath, and that it should be Saturday and not Sunday....yes, ground braking news that about the change in the weather. We must all curl up and die.
    Well sport, keeping the Sabbath on a Saturday is consistent with the old testament (in so far as Exodus names it as the last day of the week) , in terms of context though it is no more relevant than me saying next doors cat is a ginger tabby. His argument is reasonably supported but really who cares.

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    ...I'd prefer the Sabbath on Wednesday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    It was a very clever red herring of them using selected posts to divert attention away from their dying CO2 debate.
    inter
    Oh Inter...you are just so

    Please never go away...my life would be incomplete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    ...I'd prefer the Sabbath on Wednesday.
    Dunno, why not make it both Saturday and Sunday to keep most happy and just keep Wednesday as a RDO.

  17. #12167
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    ...I'd prefer the Sabbath on Wednesday.
    I have it on Friday ha ha, sarcasm is lost on the fanatic. At least you have some sense of humor.

    As for JohnC, if you want to debate the scripture, well... the law is no more according to the NT so "keeping" the sabbath makes no sense and one can not keep the the law and Christ at the same time as the 7DA do. My mention of it was precisely to highlight absurdities supported frantically by fanatics, and just as mentioning the inquisition, it is very pertinent to this conversation we are having here.
    Global warming believers behaved for the last 20 years like a modern day inquisition and their doctrine is comparable to the, in my view, absurdities in the 7DA doctrine. Of course there are many who would disagree with such simile. If you do, bad luck, the point is not the accuracy of the simile but the fact that AGW is a lie invented for political purposes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    I have it on Friday ha ha, sarcasm is lost on the fanatic. At least you have some sense of humor.

    As for JohnC, if you want to debate the scripture, well... the law is no more according to the NT so "keeping" the sabbath makes no sense and one can not keep the the law and Christ at the same time as the 7DA do. My mention of it was precisely to highlight absurdities supported frantically by fanatics, and just as mentioning the inquisition, it is very pertinent to this conversation we are having here.
    Global warming believers behaved for the last 20 years like a modern day inquisition and their doctrine is comparable to the, in my view, absurdities in the 7DA doctrine. Of course there are many who would disagree with such simile. If you do, bad luck, the point is not the accuracy of the simile but the fact that AGW is a lie invented for political purposes.
    Debating scripture? where is the quote?, a quote requires more than a vague indication of the book, it actually requires the reference, talk about desperation. Calling some poor Seven Day Adventist a religious fanatic is a low act, especially from someone who appears more interested in scapegoating than the truth. As usual no substance all bile, most of us have come across or worked with those that have strong religious convictions, the more extreme carry on much the same as you do with you views on religion, I would suggest you take your own advice for once and stop spruiking these stupid ideas on religion based fervour and a non existent link to the original topic.

  19. #12169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    the fact that AGW is a lie invented for political purposes.
    It took ~80 years AFTER the discovery of AGW and its establishment as a scientific fact before politics had anything to do it in the mid 1980's. But don't let the facts get in the way of your ideology, Marc.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Sorry JohnC, but if you are unable to keep composure and prefer to debate an illustration rather than the topic at hand, you are welcome to do so but do not expect a reply. I used a simile as it is customary to highlight a point of view, and gone further in giving a brief explanation for your benefit since you asked, but if you really want a debate on sects and doctrines, I suppose you can start a thread in ... mm... I suppose odds and sods perhaps? Not sure. Oh... you'll figure it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Sorry JohnC, but if you are unable to keep composure and prefer to debate an illustration rather than the topic at hand, you are welcome to do so but do not expect a reply. I used a simile as it is customary to highlight a point of view, and gone further in giving a brief explanation for your benefit since you asked, but if you really want a debate on sects and doctrines, I suppose you can start a thread in ... mm... I suppose odds and sods perhaps? Not sure. Oh... you'll figure it out.
    This is just a moving target, enjoy swimming at your current level, it beggars belief that you may actually be serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    ...but the fact that AGW is a lie invented for political purposes.

    AGW is no lie - it actually and demonstrably exists. The only quandary that remains is precisely how the ecosphere responds to it over the coming century. Which then leads on to how humans then respond to those impacts...

    And that response to it (or lack of it) is certainly politicised and has been adopted by all and sundry to satisfy a broad spectrum of personal, political and financial ends. I'd be downright disappointed in humanity if it wasn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    AGW is no lie - it actually and demonstrably exists. The only quandary that remains is precisely how the ecosphere responds to it over the coming century. Which then leads on to how humans then respond to those impacts...

    And that response to it (or lack of it) is certainly politicised and has been adopted by all and sundry to satisfy a broad spectrum of personal, political and financial ends. I'd be downright disappointed in humanity if it wasn't.
    Agree and ...agree.

    Even when it is probably unnecessary lets clarify. I agree that humans have an impact on the environment. That includes the atmosphere.

    Humans as a species affect everything including the moon. Many species have massive impact on the environment. Insects, bacteria, plants, probably affect the environment the most. To what degree however do humans affect the environment is the subject of the debate.

    When politics got involved, politicians paid to find any even remote link between CO2 and temperature increases and if none could be found, it had to be made up or exaggerated to the nth degree.

    The great loss in this massive fraud is that when trillions were wasted in searching for bigfoot (this is a figure of speech, please no one ask me to provide chapter and verse about the existence of bigfoot) no one tried to find OTHER explanations to the inexplicable temperature changes be it up or down. Solar, cloud cover, and hundred of other variables have been ignored because the money is on CO2 and warming. Nothing else pays. Nothing else brings the marginal vote in, nothing else delivers power and resources to be handed out like hot cakes.

    We will look back to this era of madness and shake our head. How on earth did we ever believe that crap? Humans are really funny some time...........By the way ..... If anyone is interested I have a really hot deal in environmentally friendly incandescent globes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    To what degree however do humans affect the environment is the subject of the debate.
    Ignoring for a moment ill-informed public discussion about climate change (which isn't a scientific "debate"), there is no scientific debate that the effect of humans on climate is minimal or inconsequential. The "debate" you are implying exists only in the lunatic fringe of pseudo science and skulduggery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    When politics got involved, politicians paid to find any even remote link between CO2 and temperature increases and if none could be found, it had to be made up or exaggerated to the nth degree.
    The links between CO2 and the planet Earth's energy balance were clearly understood and documented long before political bodies were even conscious of climate change. The effect of politics has been to protect the status quo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    no one tried to find OTHER explanations to the inexplicable temperature changes be it up or down. Solar, cloud cover, and hundred of other variables have been ignored because the money is on CO2 and warming.
    In the best endeavours of science to understand climate, the *only* variables not factored in are "unknowns". Solar, cloud cover and hundreds of other variables ARE factored into climate science because it simply does not work without them. GHGs are a minor player in the overall physics of the thermal equilibrium of the planet, but a major player in explaining the divergence of recent observations from what would be expected if CO2 was not having an effect.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    "It is possible to be a master in false philosophy, easier, in fact, than to be a master in the truth,
    because a false philosophy can be made as simple and consistent as one pleases."


    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgesant402136.html
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    ignoring for a moment ill-informed public discussion about climate change (which isn't a scientific "debate"), there is no scientific debate that the effect of humans on climate is minimal or inconsequential. The "debate" you are implying exists only in the lunatic fringe of pseudo science and skulduggery.
    Made it nice and big just to make sure I am not mistaken somehow. John2b with or without bees, mate, we agree on this one, there is no debate that the effect of humans is minimal, the consensus is clear and irrefutable, even the global warming supporters agree on this one, we, humans have minimal or inconsequential effect on climate.
    In effect, we do not affect it at all...just a pfff here and there, that's all, he he he

    Feww, what a relief, I can leave this page forever now.
    PS
    Skulduggery (big word, had to look it up in the dictionary)1705-15, Americanism; variant of sculduddery, orig. Scots: fornication,obscenity < ?
    Uhuuu
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    It's October. That means 355 months since the last time the planet had a month that was cooler than its average monthly temperature of the 20th Century.

    And for the "sceptics", no warming since 2010 the hottest year on record, except that 2014 is tracking to knock 2010 off the record books.

    2014 on Track to Be Hottest Year on Record - Scientific American
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    we agree on this one
    You might condone skulduggery in relation to AGW, but do not misrepresent what others think - who can think and speak for themselves.

    355 continuous months of hotter than average temperatures. Anyone less than 29 1/2 years old has never experienced in a cooler than average (global) month.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    You might condone skulduggery in relation to AGW, but do not misrepresent what others think - who can think and speak for themselves.

    355 continuous months of hotter than average temperatures. Anyone less than 29 1/2 years old has never experienced in a cooler than average (global) month.
    the last anybody looked the globe has been in a warming phase since halfway through the last millennium! Nobody here has expected to see anything different, yet you still persist with the same propaganda, the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over & over & expecting a different answer!
    intrr

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over & over & expecting a different answer!
    Which begs the question: Why do you come here?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    the last anybody looked the globe has been in a warming phase since halfway through the last millennium! Nobody here has expected to see anything different
    This person expected something different:

    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Something of significance is no global warming since 1998
    Which is it Inter, warming or no warming? What side are you on?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Which begs the question: Why do you come here?
    no prizes for second place here! Losers just have to cop it on the chin! Just like in the real world!
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    This person expected something different:



    Which is it Inter, warming or no warming? What side are you on?
    Im quite happy not panicking untill the real cause is found, up, down, stabile, but willing to take it to the fear mongers jumping the gun!
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Im quite happy not panicking untill the real cause is found...
    The real cause of denial?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    The real cause of denial?
    only a galah would be in denial of science which provides irrefutable, accurate, repeatable experiments which prove a theory, only a galah would accept anecdotal evidence as proof before it is proven beyond doubt to an acceptable scientific level.
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    only a galah would be in denial of science which provides irrefutable, accurate, repeatable experiments which prove a theory, only a galah would accept anecdotal evidence as proof before it is proven beyond doubt to an acceptable scientific level.
    So now you say you accept the irrefutable, accurate, repeatable experiments and measurements which demonstrate that AGW is happening. Or should I post you some sunflower seeds?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    So now you say you accept the irrefutable, accurate, repeatable experiments and measurements which demonstrate that AGW is happening. Or should I post you some sunflower seeds?
    "It was a very clever red herring of them using selected posts to divert attention away from their dying CO2 debate.
    inter"
    I wouldn't normally eat anything sent by some unknown nutcase off the internet as it could be laced with poison, but in your case I would eat them no matter what.
    inter

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    ...ignoring for a moment ill-informed public discussion about climate change (which isn't a scientific "debate"), there is no scientific debate that the effect of humans on climate is minimal or inconsequential.
    You said it not me
    ...............
    So we agree, the effect on climate by humans is so minimal that does not deserve a debate nor any "action". Furthermore since we don't even know by what mechanism this happens nor do we know nor understand the multiplicity of mechanism that act to compensate for changes, we are talking hot air here and in any other big convention to save a planet that does not need saving.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    Dr. Vincent Gray on historical carbon dioxide levels

    Anthony Watts / June 4, 2013
    NZCLIMATE TRUTH NEWSLETTER NO 312 JUNE 4th 2013
    CARBON DIOXIDE
    There are two gases in the earth’s atmosphere without which living organisms could not exist.
    Oxygen is the most abundant, 21% by volume, but without carbon dioxide, which is currently only about 0.04 percent (400ppm) by volume, both the oxygen itself, and most living organisms on earth could not exist at all.
    This happened when the more complex of the two living cells (called “eukaryote”) evolved a process called a “chloroplast” some 3 billion years ago, which utilized a chemical called chlorophyll to capture energy from the sun and convert carbon dioxide and nitrogen into a range of chemical compounds and structural polymers by photosynthesis. These substances provide all the food required by the organisms not endowed with a chloroplast organelle in their cells.
    This process also produced all of the oxygen in the atmosphere
    The relative proportions of carbon dioxide and oxygen have varied very widely over the geological ages.



    It will be seen that there is no correlation whatsoever between carbon dioxide concentration and the temperature at the earth’s surface.
    During the latter part of the Carboniferous, the Permian and the first half of the Triassic period, 250-320 million years ago, carbon dioxide concentration was half what it is today but the temperature was 10ºC higher than today . Oxygen in the atmosphere fluctuated from 15 to 35% during this period
    From the Cretaceous to the Eocene 35 to 100 million years ago, a high temperature went with declining carbon dioxide.
    The theory that carbon dioxide concentration is related to the temperature of the earth’s surface is therefore wrong.
    The growth of plants in the Carboniferous caused a reduction in atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide, forming the basis for large deposits of dead plants and other organisms. Plant debris became the basis for peat and coal., smaller organisms provided oil and gas, both after millions of years of applied heat and pressure from geological change; mountain building, erosion, deposition of sediments, volcanic eruptions, rises and fall of sea level and movement of continents. Marine organisms used carbon dioxide to build shells and coral polyps and these became the basis of limestone rocks
    The idea promulgated by the IPCC that the energy received from the sun is instantly “balanced” by an equal amount returned to space, implies a dead world, from the beginning with no place for the vital role of carbon dioxide in forming the present atmosphere or for the development or maintenance of living organisms, or their ability to store energy or release it.
    Increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide caused by return to the atmosphere of some of the gas that was once there promotes the growth of forests, the yield of agricultural crops and the fish, molluscs and coral polyps in the ocean.
    Increase of Carbon Dioxide is thus wholly beneficial to “the environment” There is no evidence that it causes harm.
    Cheers
    Vincent Gray
    Wellington, New Zealand

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails co2_temperature_historical.jpg   oxygen_earths_atmosphere_historical.png  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    You said it not me
    What I said in context was:

    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Ignoring for a moment ill-informed public discussion about climate change (which isn't a scientific "debate"), there is no scientific debate that the effect of humans on climate is minimal or inconsequential. The "debate" you are implying exists only in the lunatic fringe of pseudo science and skulduggery.

    The links between CO2 and the planet Earth's energy balance were clearly understood and documented long before political bodies were even conscious of climate change. The effect of politics has been to protect the status quo.

    In the best endeavours of science to understand climate, the *only* variables not factored in are "unknowns". Solar, cloud cover and hundreds of other variables ARE factored into climate science because it simply does not work without them. GHGs are a minor player in the overall physics of the thermal equilibrium of the planet, but a major player in explaining the divergence of recent observations from what would be expected if CO2 was not having an effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    So we agree
    No we don't. If you can twist a diametrically opposed statement into an "agreement" in your head, it's no wonder that you can fabricate a belief in anything and everything to suit your own mantra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Furthermore since we don't even know by what mechanism this happens nor do we know nor understand the multiplicity of mechanism that act to compensate for changes
    The physics of human induced climate change is pretty well understood and has been for decades. In fact it is much better understood than the psychology of climate change denial. Why people unwittingly persist in promulgating falsehoods and duplicity will probably never be understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    we are talking hot air here and in any other big convention to save a planet that does not need saving.
    Tell that to the people and companies who have funded the whole climate science obfuscation, some of the same entities that have spent up enormously on geoengineering development and are standing in the wings ready to make a killing out of geoengineering as a last resort to cool the planet - companies including Exxon, Canadian Natural Resources (a tar sands oil company), Kilimanjaro Energy and Monsanto. You had better tell them they are investing your money unwisely.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    only a galah would be in denial of science which provides irrefutable, accurate, repeatable experiments which prove a theory, only a galah would accept anecdotal evidence as proof before it is proven beyond doubt to an acceptable scientific level.
    inter
    GREAT PLASTERING TIPS AT


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    Happy Birthday!!

    Global warming pause just tuned 18

    Happy Anniversary: 1 October Marks 18 Years Without Global Warming Trend | Watts Up With That?

    ITS OLD ENOUGH TO VOTE
    GREAT PLASTERING TIPS AT


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Happy Birthday!!

    Global warming pause just tuned 18

    ITS OLD ENOUGH TO VOTE
    You mean the warming pause HOAX just turned 18.

    It has been 29 years and seven months since the last cooler than average month, based on 1900 - 2000 averages.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Money spent by big oil/coal on climate science obfuscation and selling anti-science has been spent well, going on the claptrap that some people post in this forum.



    http://www.drexel.edu/culturecomm/ne...others-brulle/
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Question for Rod:

    Why does the climate change countermovement feel the need to fund its propaganda through dark money? If it is right, why does it feel the need to hide the billions of dollars it spends selling its story?

    “Money amplifies certain voices above others and, in effect, gives them a megaphone in the public square,” he said. “Powerful funders are supporting the campaign to deny scientific findings about global warming and raise public doubts about the roots and remedies of this massive global threat. At the very least, (people) deserve to know who is behind these efforts.”—Ruth McCambridge

    Not Just the Koch Brothers: New Drexel Study Reveals Funders Behind the Climate Change Denial Effort | Now | Drexel University
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Money spent by big oil/coal on climate science obfuscation and selling anti-science has been spent well, going on the claptrap that some people post in this forum.



    Not Just the Koch Brothers: New Drexel Study Reveals Funders Behind the Climate Change Denial Effort | Department of Culture & Communication | Drexel University
    And to the weak minded that somehow proves that CO2 is the cause of global warming!!!
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    And to the weak minded that somehow proves that CO2 is the cause of global warming!!!
    inter
    Or rather that is how much they spend to brainwash the weak minded and gullible. It hasn't been wasted either, we have some examples of its success here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    You mean the warming pause HOAX just turned 18.

    It has been 29 years and seven months since the last cooler than average month, based on 1900 - 2000 averages.
    yes but what are you trying to prove? Nobody is denying what your quoting as incorrect, but you on the other hand are in complete denial about the pause in global warming since 1998 & what's more is you seem to think your misguided belief has more standing than all the quoted academics accepting that there has been no warming over this timeframe, it would certainly be interesting being a fly on the wall watching you shop for a hat.
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Or rather that is how much they spend to brainwash the weak minded and gullible. It hasn't been wasted either, we have some examples of its success here.
    you obviously are describing the breakaways from your camp, because without irrefutable proven scientific evidence this side isn't quite stupid enough to accept propaganda as such.
    inter

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