Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #13601
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    Still no intelligent response to the lost opportunity in the eastern states for generating a significant proportion of their energy from renewables. All we are seeing is fictional ad hominum attacks on a state that has created and followed a long term plan, a plan which is showing results.

    If you want to debate welfare between the states, start a thread for it. This is the Emission Trading thread, remember?

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  2. #13602
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Still no intelligent response...
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  3. #13603
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Still no intelligent response to the lost opportunity in the eastern states for generating a significant proportion of their energy from renewables. All we are seeing is fictional ad hominum attacks on a state that has created and followed a long term plan, a plan which is showing results.

    If you want to debate welfare between the states, start a thread for it. This is the Emission Trading thread, remember?
    Making up your own rules again we see! You have a strange perception thinking that a state govt racking up public debt to pay for a utopian dream of renewable energy, that is only producing long term employment & long term debt while draining the nations welfare budget when it needn't be, hasn't anything to do with this debate which is ultimately CO2 & taxes to pay for the stupidity!

  4. #13604
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    You didn't point to debt, you pointed to welfare, it's like wrestling with a greasy pig, to slippery to be worth the effort and pig probably likes it.

  5. #13605
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    Getting back on topic.

    Grand Opening! The Mojave Solar Project is now officially fully operational | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

    It's not just SA that has long term plans to reduce the fossil fuel component of it's electricity generation. This new plant in the Mojave uses advanced parabolic trough technology that has made the 280 MegaWatt plant one of the most innovative projects in the US and the second-largest plant of its kind in the world.

    NREL: Concentrating Solar Power Projects - Mojave Solar Project



    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  6. #13606
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    You didn't point to debt, you pointed to welfare, it's like wrestling with a greasy pig, to slippery to be worth the effort and pig probably likes it.
    And Understandably so from a serial oinker!

  7. #13607
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Getting back on topic.

    Grand Opening! The Mojave Solar Project is now officially fully operational | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

    It's not just SA that has long term plans to reduce the fossil fuel component of it's electricity generation. This new plant in the Mojave uses advanced parabolic trough technology that has made the 280 MegaWatt plant one of the most innovative projects in the US and the second-largest plant of its kind in the world.

    NREL: Concentrating Solar Power Projects - Mojave Solar Project


    you seem to think that we are against renewable energy, which is not the case! Most normal people are against cheap fossil fuelled energy artificially being made expensive so that they will be conned into thinking that expensive solar & wind renewable energy is cheaper! This simple thing separates the blind clone followers from the sensible.

  8. #13608
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    Quote Originally Posted by intert98 View Post
    Most normal people are against cheap fossil fuelled energy artificially being made expensive so that they will be conned into thinking that expensive solar & wind renewable energy is cheaper. (Insults redacted.)
    Australian governments provide over $4 billion per year in subsidies the fossil fuel industry in Australia. Australian coal, oil and gas companies receive $4b in subsidies: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


    Thanks Inter98 - It's so nice to have you back. I haven't had so many belly laughs since the ABC stopped broadcasting The Goon Show!
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  9. #13609
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    you seem to think that we are against renewable energy, which is not the case!
    You seem think spewing CO2 into the atmosphere by burning cheap fossil fuel is the way to go because it's a 'harmless gas' Pfft.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  10. #13610
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    Righto Kids...here's the latest climate change projections from CSIRO and BoM and released today by the Federal Government

    Knock yourselves out Home

    Technical report here Technical Report

    and regional reports herehttp://www.climatechangeinaustralia.gov.au/en/publications-library/cluster-reports/

    Sadly, some of the useful visualisation tools and toys haven't been seen as fit for Australian consumption (perhaps due to being far too obvious or potentially contentious?) but it is way better than nothing at all..
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

  11. #13611
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Australian governments provide over $4 billion per year in subsidies the fossil fuel industry in Australia. Australian coal, oil and gas companies receive $4b in subsidies: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


    Thanks Inter98 - It's so nice to have you back. I haven't had so many belly laughs since the ABC stopped broadcasting The Goon Show!
    Thats irrelevant garbage, the non clones can just look at their electricity bills over the last years to see the cost of electricity has risen while coming out of the same power plants, coming down the same grid system.

  12. #13612
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    You seem think spewing CO2 into the atmosphere by burning cheap fossil fuel is the way to go because it's a 'harmless gas' Pfft.
    you must produce something more than your ample amount of hot air to prove otherwise, we are all waiting! And it has been many years!

  13. #13613
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Thats irrelevant garbage, the non clones can just look at their electricity bills over the last years to see the cost of electricity has risen while coming out of the same power plants, coming down the same grid system.
    Looking at your bill doesn't mean you understand the electricity market. According to the federal government network charges account for 51% of the cost of electricity. The grid has had to have its capacity increased to cope with demand, mostly from new air conditioners (installed to cope with our increasing long summer heat waves).

    You can thank people like me who spent their own money on solar panels. Rooftop PV has significantly reduced summer daytime peak load on the grid because each house's excess solar electricity is distributed locally and not through the grid. Without household solar systems, your electricity would be even more expensive.

    Rooftop solar has even caused coal fired power stations to pay to get rid of their electricity - i.e. sell at negative wholesale prices.

    Solar has won. Even if coal were free to burn, power stations couldn't compete | Giles Parkinson | Comment is free | The Guardian
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  14. #13614
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    From the coal-fired power station point of view, you couldn't have a worse competitor, because solar is at its best when the market is at its most profitable.

    RICHARD DENNISS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE AUSTRALIA INSTITUTE


    The price of power - Background Briefing - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  15. #13615
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    And Understandably so from a serial oinker!
    That is positively kind compared to most of your efforts, I feel all warm and gooey inside as a result.

  16. #13616
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    you must produce something more than your ample amount of hot air to prove otherwise, we are all waiting! And it has been many years!
    Well, you will never ever accept anything that comes from science then. 97% are agreeing that CO2 is an issue and we need to do something about it.

    Inter98, Mr 3%. You and your handful of stooges think you know better than over a hundred years of research. Publish!

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  17. #13617
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Well, you will never ever accept anything that comes from science then. 97% are agreeing that CO2 is an issue and we need to do something about it.

    Inter98, Mr 3%. You and your handful of stooges think you know better than over a hundred years of research. Publish!
    We see you are utterly confused again, between 97% of a few hundred select scientists that agree that they think global warming is man made & the fact that there are no facts that prove CO2 alone is causing the warming, so far the best the clone camp can do is show that global cooling is associated with low CO2 levels & no evidence that it precedes these events!

  18. #13618
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    We see you are utterly confused again, between 97% of a few hundred select scientists that agree that they think global warming is man made & the fact that there are no facts that prove CO2 alone is causing the warming
    We see you are trying to wiggle out of your denial of science again. Just admit it. The 97% of scientists who agree we need to do something about CO2 are qualified and publishing climate scientists, and they have repeatedly demonstrated and published their research to support their findings. No surprise that you don't read or understand their work.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  19. #13619
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    We see you are utterly confused again, between 97% of a few hundred select scientists that agree that they think global warming is man made & the fact that there are no facts that prove CO2 alone is causing the warming, so far the best the clone camp can do is show that global cooling is associated with low CO2 levels & no evidence that it precedes these events!
    Just making it up as we go along are we?

  20. #13620
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    That is positively kind compared to most of your efforts, I feel all warm and gooey inside as a result.
    What myself & everybody else wants are some facts to back up your idealism!

  21. #13621
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    We see you are trying to wiggle out of your denial of science again. Just admit it. The 97% of scientists who agree we need to do something about CO2 are qualified and publishing climate scientists, and they have repeatedly demonstrated and published their research to support their findings. No surprise that you don't read or understand their work.
    lets see you try & back up your claim that says 97% of scientists agree or believe CO2 is causing global warming?

  22. #13622
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    lets see you try & back up your claim that says 97% of scientists agree or believe CO2 is causing global warming?
    Correction: 97% of publishing climate scientists! Looking for another straw man I see.

    Already posted in this thread, several times. Please try to keep up!

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  23. #13623
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Just making it up as we go along are we?
    The truth is stranger than fiction for a clone!

  24. #13624
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Correction: 97% of publishing climate scientists! Looking for another straw man I see.

    Already posted in this thread, several times. Please try to keep up!
    them too then!

  25. #13625
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    I see despite his usual ability to post anything containing a fact he mentions a few hundred climate scientists, even this isn't right nor is it supported by the doubters, although we are back to using the word clone again which is just stupid for "I ain't got nuthin"

  26. #13626
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    them too then!
    Reading list for you inter98: Reading List in XLSX format

    Not that you would bother reading anything to refute your anti-science views, but just an indication that there is mountains of research you choose to ignore.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  27. #13627
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    I see despite his usual ability to post anything containing a fact he mentions a few hundred climate scientists, even this isn't right nor is it supported by the doubters, although we are back to using the word clone again which is just stupid for "I ain't got nuthin"
    if you clones want to pay a useless tax on a essential atmospheric gas that's at a relatively low level then I'm afraid its you that has to come up with the proof, all you are doing is proving how much of a leftist cultist warped sense of entitlement & righteousness you have!

  28. #13628
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Reading list for you inter98: Reading List in XLSX format

    Not that you would bother reading anything to refute your anti-science views, but just an indication that there is mountains of research you choose to ignore.
    And there we were thinking you could possibly at least meet the challenge of

    "Originally Posted by intertd6
    lets see you try & back up your claim that says 97% of ( and that would mean ALL ) scientists agree or believe CO2 is causing global warming? "Including them too""

    we just can't wait for the endless dribble & waffle that doesn't meet the description of the challenge on this one!

  29. #13629
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    Already posted in this very thread.

    No waffle required from this side, just some reading on yours, something you don't seem to be able to accomplish.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  30. #13630
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    97% of ( and that would mean ALL ) scientists agree or believe CO2 is causing global warming
    Not my claim. I wouldn't expect 97% of all scientists to agree or 'believe' the results of climate science research, just as I woldn't expect 97% of all scientists to accept or 'believe' the results of another field they are not expert in.

    97% refers to qualified publishing climate scientists who happen to accept the results of climate science research.

    Another strawman from inter98, Mr 3%

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  31. #13631
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Already posted in this very thread.

    No waffle required from this side, just some reading on yours, something you don't seem to be able to accomplish.
    and it was disproved on this very debate as well, your dribble has started already! The waffle started on your post #13626!

  32. #13632
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    and it was disproved on this very debate as well
    Published Scientific research has never been disproved in this thread. The way to disprove scientific research is to publish research that shows there is a better hypothesis and theory to fit the known facts. We've been waiting a hundred years for the basics of climate science and CO2 to be disproven but it hasn't happened yet. Now, someone who denies science claims it has been disproven on an internet forum. lol.

    Please link the original published scientific paper and the published scientific paper that disproves all of climate science as it stands today.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  33. #13633
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Not my claim. I wouldn't expect 97% of all scientists to agree or 'believe' the results of climate science research, just as I woldn't expect 97% of all scientists to accept or 'believe' the results of another field they are not expert in.

    97% refers to qualified publishing climate scientists who happen to accept the results of climate science research.

    Another strawman from inter98, Mr 3%
    still evading such a simple challenge we see & can't even quote a quote accurately
    "Originally Posted by intertd6 lets see you try & back up your claim that says 97% of ( and that would mean ALL ) scientists agree or believe CO2 is causing global warming? "Including them too""

    Those other scientists must have gone to lessor universities where they didn't teach anything about CO2, the poor uneducated souls, may they not burn up in the oncoming CO2 holocaust!

  34. #13634
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Published Scientific research has never been disproved in this thread. The way to disprove scientific research is to publish research that shows there is a better hypothesis and theory to fit the known facts. We've been waiting a hundred years for the basics of climate science and CO2 to be disproven but it hasn't happened yet. Now, someone who denies science claims it has been disproven on an internet forum. lol.

    Please link the original published scientific paper and the published scientific paper that disproves all of climate science as it stands today.
    earth calling clone? Earth calling clone? The subject was the 97% of all climate scientists saying that CO2 was causing the global warming? You can keep your irrelevant waffle for your vast empty inner spaces!

  35. #13635
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    still evading such a simple challenge we see & can't even quote a quote accurately
    "Originally Posted by intertd6 lets see you try & back up your claim that says 97% of ( and that would mean ALL ) scientists agree or believe CO2 is causing global warming? "Including them too""
    Already answered. Not my claim. The claim is that 97% of qualified publishing climate scientists accept the current state of the science which includes CO2 as a driver of the climate.

    You are just playing strawman argumentum ad nauseum.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  36. #13636
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    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  37. #13637
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Published Scientific research has never been disproved in this thread. The way to disprove scientific research is to publish research that shows there is a better hypothesis and theory to fit the known facts. We've been waiting a hundred years for the basics of climate science and CO2 to be disproven but it hasn't happened yet. Now, someone who denies science claims it has been disproven on an internet forum. lol.

    Please link the original published scientific paper and the published scientific paper that disproves all of climate science as it stands today.
    So an inordinate amount of unproven theory's somehow has outweighed the basic proven concept of science, Then you or one of the clones come out with stuff like this that defies lunacy
    "In case you thought otherwise, empirical evidence does not explain a complex physical, geological, ecological and planetary climate system."
    what a joke! And everybody is laughing but you lot!

  38. #13638
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    still evading such a simple challenge we see & can't even quote a quote accurately
    "Originally Posted by intertd6 lets see you try & back up your claim that says 97% of ( and that would mean ALL ) scientists agree or believe CO2 is causing global warming? "Including them too""

    Those other scientists must have gone to lessor universities where they didn't teach anything about CO2, the poor uneducated souls, may they not burn up in the oncoming CO2 holocaust!
    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    earth calling clone? Earth calling clone? The subject was the 97% of all climate scientists saying that CO2 was causing the global warming? You can keep your irrelevant waffle for your vast empty inner spaces!
    So you are now backing down on 97% of (and that would mean ALL) scientists ? Caught playing straw man again!

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  39. #13639
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    are you too lazy to quote the bit that says 97% of all climate scientists agree that CO2 is causing the global warming?

  40. #13640
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    So you are now backing down on 97% of (and that would mean ALL) scientists ? Caught playing straw man again!
    Why! did you want to exclude them again?

  41. #13641
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    ]
    "In case you thought otherwise, empirical evidence does not explain a complex physical, geological, ecological and planetary climate system."
    what a joke! And everybody is laughing but you lot!
    There is over a hundred years of research resulting in the current understanding of this complex climate system. Empirical evidence is not the explanation, it is the data representation of the system. If empirical evidence explained the climate we wouldn't need science, we would just need data.

    In your case, you don't accept the data or the science.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  42. #13642
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Why! did you want to exclude them again?
    I don't need to. You added them to the claim, then took them out when your strawman was exposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    earth calling clone? Earth calling clone? The subject was the 97% of all climate scientists saying that CO2 was causing the global warming? You can keep your irrelevant waffle for your vast empty inner spaces!

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  43. #13643
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    are you too lazy to quote the bit that says 97% of all climate scientists agree that CO2 is causing the global warming?
    Go read it for yourself. This is not the spoon feed a denier forum.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  44. #13644
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Reading list for you inter98: Reading List in XLSX format

    Not that you would bother reading anything to refute your anti-science views, but just an indication that there is mountains of research you choose to ignore.
    Have you read any of these articles yet?

    Thought not.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  45. #13645
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    if you clones want to pay a useless tax on a essential atmospheric gas that's at a relatively low level then I'm afraid its you that has to come up with the proof, all you are doing is proving how much of a leftist cultist warped sense of entitlement & righteousness you have!
    The Australian government's own economic documents released at the G20 summit show that Australian governments will have subsidised the fossil fuel industry by $111 billion dollars between 2005 and 2016. That's enough to build more solar generation capacity at current prices than Australia's total electrical generation capacity.

    Inventory of Estimated Budgetary Support and Tax Expenditures for Fossil Fuels 2013 | OECD READ edition

    It is beyond ridiculous to decry subsidies for renewable energy whilst there are such extravagant government contributions to fossil fuel businesses (currently more than $10 billion per annum).
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  46. #13646
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    Scientific consensus shifts public opinion on climate change

    Will J Grant from the Australian National Centre for the Public Awareness of Science at the Australian National University said it was an interesting and useful study.
    “We can say people are convinced by the consensus but the big caveat is sceptics and climate change sceptics in particular are never going to be convinced by this,” he said. “They will say science doesn’t work by vote, it’s about facts.”
    “Realistically, though, most of those sceptics are of an older generation. We are never going to convince them but they will be disappearing from the political discourse soon.”
    Looks like if Will's prediction is correct inter98 will disappear soon. lol.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  47. #13647
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Scientific consensus shifts public opinion on climate change



    Looks like if Will's prediction is correct inter98 will disappear soon. lol.
    The nations IQ rate should improve as these dolts slip into their graves, there is always an upside.

  48. #13648
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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    the fact that there are no facts that prove CO2 alone is causing the warming...

    For the Love of Huey....how many times do you have to be told that NO-ONE in the climate science community(or anyone else with their thinking caps engaged) says that CO2 is alone in contributing to warming. It is but one player.

    However, because of its l-o-n-g retention time in the atmosphere and its effectiveness as a barrier...it punches well above its volume. So even the comparatively tiny volumetric amounts that fossil fuel incineration by humans contributes considerably (and measurably) to the overall impact.

    It's a bit like when you fart in a site shed...tiny volumetric addition and yet you still manage to clear the room...


    Regardless, an effective carbon emission reduction scheme at a global scale by 2020 will only mean that we [might] stay within the RCP 6.5 emission scenario...so we are planning for 8.5 whilst still hoping for 6.5 or dreaming of 4.5. Which means we are planning for 'really, really expensive' adaptation needs and hoping for 'quite expensive' adaptation needs. Not particularly clever but sadly quite necessary...
    Joined RF in 2006...Resigned in 2020.

  49. #13649
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    For the Love of Huey....how many times do you have to be told that NO-ONE in the climate science community(or anyone else with their thinking caps engaged) says that CO2 is alone in contributing to warming. It is but one player.

    However, because of its l-o-n-g retention time in the atmosphere and its effectiveness as a barrier...it punches well above its volume. So even the comparatively tiny volumetric amounts that fossil fuel incineration by humans contributes considerably (and measurably) to the overall impact.

    It's a bit like when you fart in a site shed...tiny volumetric addition and yet you still manage to clear the room...


    Regardless, an effective carbon emission reduction scheme at a global scale by 2020 will only mean that we [might] stay within the RCP 6.5 emission scenario...so we are planning for 8.5 whilst still hoping for 6.5 or dreaming of 4.5. Which means we are planning for 'really, really expensive' adaptation needs and hoping for 'quite expensive' adaptation needs. Not particularly clever but sadly quite necessary...
    your kidding right?
    GREAT PLASTERING TIPS AT


  50. #13650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    your kidding right?
    Which bit? This? Right on the money, if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    It's a bit like when you fart in a site shed...tiny volumetric addition and yet you still manage to clear the room...
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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