Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #1551
    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Originally Posted by chrisp
    The whole world is working towards setting targets. So if we reduce our emissions by 20% and everyone else reduces their emissions by 20%, the reduction is 20%.

    Surely you didn't need someone to point out the error in the augment to you, did you?
    And you really believe that is achievable given population growth? It is impossible to achieve it here in Australia unless you fudge the numbers
    Rod,

    You asked what was wrong with the argument and I pointed out the error.

    As to meeting reduction targets? Why not? Why is it impossible? Don't you think you could save 20% on your CO2 emissions (or 30% if you want) if you tried?

  2. #1552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson
    And you can't read!!!
    Rod,

    I think this is the bit that confused Headpin. The way this reads, Rod Dyson tracked down Terry and gained permission from him to post the article.

    If that's the case, no worries. If it's not the case, you should really quote where you copy/pasted it from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    This article appeared in the Rockhampton morning Bulletin on 22.12.09.
    Although I have never ever met the author I was, after some difficulty, able to contact him by phone.

    This is an excellent piece for my friends to send to their politicians or to anybody who needs to be educated about Australia 's Coal driven power houses.

    Terry is now retired and is in excellent health at age 69.
    Nobody paid him to write the article which was, (to their credit), published by the local press.

    Terry told me I could distribute his article as I saw fit.
    woodbe.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  3. #1553
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Yeh, I kinda like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Not sure what you are trying to depict here, but your scale is way off:

    The diameter of the sun is about 1.4 million Km
    The mean distance between the earth and the sun is a little over 149 million Km.

    So, if you wanted to show the sun that size (about 9cm diameter on my monitor) you would need to show the earth nearly a metre away from it.

    Still, it's a nice picture

    woodbe.
    Just trying to add some context to the discussion. I find it therapeutic to remember I am just a hairless ape who's ancestors figured out how to bang rocks together on a speck of dust in the middle of nowhere. Not exactly masters of the universe...

    A closer to scale link is posted below, but Noel would have torn me a new one if I cut and pasted this into the thread.


  4. #1554
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Well, here is a start, don't you have Google at home?



    woodbe
    Why the cheap shot woodbe?
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  5. #1555
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Rod,

    I think this is the bit that confused Headpin. The way this reads, Rod Dyson tracked down Terry and gained permission from him to post the article.

    If that's the case, no worries. If it's not the case, you should really quote where you copy/pasted it from.



    woodbe.
    The reference of where it was published in the first place is good enough.
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  6. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Well, here is a start, don't you have Google at home?

    SOLAR THERMAL POWER AS THE PLAUSIBLE BASIS OF GRID SUPPLY (PDF) (Ausra.com)

    Learning About PV: The Myths of Solar Electricity (energy.gov)

    Solar Power Tower Technologies Could Solve the World's Energy Needs (brighthub.com)

    ...etc...

    woodbe

    Hmm. I am not against renewable energy provided it is comercially viable and not funded from the tax payer and actually produces energy that does not have to be backed up by a coal fired plant anyway.

    It states that storage is for 16hrs. what happens when we get a rain event like the past week in the cental areas of Australia. Would this mean we have balck outs if this was used here? Yes it all sounds good and I am all for it if it works. Nothing at all to do with AGW, in my book if it works and is viable do it.

    These technologies need to be persued irrespective of AGW.
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  7. #1557
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Love it.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Well, here is a start, don't you have Google at home?

    SOLAR THERMAL POWER AS THE PLAUSIBLE BASIS OF GRID SUPPLY (PDF) (Ausra.com)

    Learning About PV: The Myths of Solar Electricity (energy.gov)

    Solar Power Tower Technologies Could Solve the World's Energy Needs (brighthub.com)

    ...etc...

    woodbe
    I am a huge fan of renewable energy sources, particularly solar as opposed to others like wind and geothermal, as it exists in abundance across the universe. Handy when traveling. No doubt it will be replaced by anti-matter or gravitational drives in the future (or maybe not based on our latest science curriculum changes ), but it is a likely stepping stone for us hairless apes.

    I particularly like the space based stuff like this and maybe if we weren't wasting this money in market based derivative trading scams, we could invest it all in solar and make it viable a lot quicker.

  8. #1558
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Poor bloke joined the wrong party.

    It is a matter of record that Minister Garrett alerted his cabinet colleagues to the inherent problems of the home insulation scheme on at least one occasion and we can only presume did so to deafening silence by way of response or if any verbal response was made it seems to be of the “don’t tell me your problems” variety.


    If you give someone 2.4 billion dollars to run a carbon pollution reduction program and they royally screw it, what do you say when they ask for 114 billion dollars for something infinitely more complicated?

  9. #1559
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Jeering and heckling works sometimes.

    Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change lead author, Prof Neville Nicholls, said the claim was not backed by science.

    Yet Federal Climate Change and Water Minister Penny Wong has repeatedly claimed the basin's drought is due to climate change.

    Prof Steven Sherwood, of the University of NSW Climate Change Research Centre, said the "sceptics here are (for once) technically correct, in that there is no proven link - yet - between Murray Darling drought and climate change".

  10. #1560

  11. #1561
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Complex?

    But Rudd's most pivotal admission was a shocker: referring to health reform, he said on ABC1's Insiders: "We didn't properly, I think, estimate the complexity of what we were embarking on."

    Play that again? This sounds like a government out of its depth.

    What about climate change, with its emissions trading scheme?


  12. #1562
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Oh dear.

    But still heard this:

    Jones's general defence was that anything people didn't like – the strong-arm tactics to silence critics, the cold-shouldering of freedom of information requests, the economy with data sharing – were all "standard practice" among climate scientists. "Maybe it should be, but it's not."

    And he seemed to be right. The most startling observation came when he was asked how often scientists reviewing his papers for probity before publication asked to see details of his raw data, methodology and computer codes. "They've never asked," he said.

    But for the first time he did concede publicly that when he tried to repeat the 1990 study in 2008, he came up with radically different findings. Or, as he put it, "a slightly different conclusion". Fully 40% of warming there in the past 60 years was due to urban influences. "It's something we need to consider," he said.

  13. #1563
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Too little too late for them Phil.

    Maybe they’re scared enough now.

  14. #1564

  15. #1565

  16. #1566
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Still hiding.

    University ‘tried to mislead MPs on climate change e-mails’

    The letter also confirmed the ICO’s previous statement that the university had failed in its duties under the Freedom of Information Act by rejecting requests for data.

    The university had demanded that the ICO withdraw this statement.

    The ICO letter, signed by Graham Smith, the deputy commissioner, said: “I can confirm that the ICO will not be retracting the statement ...The fact that the elements of a section 77 offence may have been found here, but cannot be acted on because of the elapsed time, is a very serious matter.

  17. #1567
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default 36,000 humourless scientists in white coats.

    The Institute of Physics is a scientific charity devoted to increasing the practice, understanding and application of physics. It has a worldwide membership of over 36,000 and is a leading communicator of physics-related science to all audiences, from specialists through to government and the general public. Its publishing company, IOP Publishing, is a world leader in scientific publishing and the electronic dissemination of physics.

    The Institute is pleased to submit its views to inform the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee's inquiry, 'The disclosure of climate data from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia'.

    The CRU e-mails as published on the internet provide prima facie evidence of determined and co-ordinated refusals to comply with honourable scientific traditions and freedom of information law. The principle that scientists should be willing to expose their ideas and results to independent testing and replication by others, which requires the open exchange of data, procedures and materials, is vital. The lack of compliance has been confirmed by the findings of the Information Commissioner. This extends well beyond the CRU itself - most of the e-mails were exchanged with researchers in a number of other international institutions who are also involved in the formulation of the IPCC's conclusions on climate change.

    The second category relating to proxy reconstructions are the basis for the conclusion that 20th century warming is unprecedented. Published reconstructions may represent only a part of the raw data available and may be sensitive to the choices made and the statistical techniques used. Different choices, omissions or statistical processes may lead to different conclusions. This possibility was evidently the reason behind some of the (rejected) requests for further information.

    There is also reason for concern at the intolerance to challenge displayed in the e-mails. This impedes the process of scientific 'self correction', which is vital to the integrity of the scientific process as a whole, and not just to the research itself. In that context, those CRU e-mails relating to the peer-review process suggest a need for a review of its adequacy and objectivity as practised in this field and its potential vulnerability to bias or manipulation.

    Fundamentally, we consider it should be inappropriate for the verification of the integrity of the scientific process to depend on appeals to Freedom of Information legislation. Nevertheless, the right to such appeals has been shown to be necessary. The e-mails illustrate the possibility of networks of like-minded researchers effectively excluding newcomers. Requiring data to be electronically accessible to all, at the time of publication, would remove this possibility.

    Truly a link worth reading to get an objective assessment of this fiasco!

  18. #1568
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default But wait, there's more.

    Rajendra Pachauri, the controversial Chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is to face an international inquiry into the performance of his organisation.

    The ministers – led by Hillary Benn, the Environment Secretary,and his counterparts from Germany,. Norway, Algeria and Antigua and Barbuda – refused to allow Dr Pachauri to decide who would carry out the review, insisting it must be completely and demonstrably independent of the IPCC.

    The two agencies are expected first to approach national academies of sciences and to ensure that it examines the management of the organisation as well as its scientific procedures.


  19. #1569
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default It's getting hot in here.

    Senator James Inhofe (R-OK) today asked the Obama administration to investigate what he called “the greatest scientific scandal of our generation” — the actions of climate scientists revealed by the Climategate files, and the subsequent admissions by the editors of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Fourth Assessment Report (AR4).

    Senator Inhofe also called for former Vice President Al Gore to be called back to the Senate to testify.

    “In [Gore's] science fiction movie, every assertion has been rebutted,” Inhofe said. He believes Vice President Gore should defend himself and his movie before Congress.

    Just prior to a hearing at 10:00 a.m. EST, Senator Inhofe released a minority staff report from the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, of which he is ranking member. Senator Inhofe is asking the Department of Justice to investigate whether there has been research misconduct or criminal actions by the scientists involved, including Dr. Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University and Dr. James Hansen of Columbia University and the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies.

    The staff report describes four major issues revealed by the Climategate files and the subsequent revelations:

    1.The emails suggest some climate scientists were cooperating to obstruct the release of damaging information and counter-evidence.
    2.They suggest scientists were manipulating the data to reach predetermined conclusions.
    3.They show some climate scientists colluding to pressure journal editors not to publish work questioning the “consensus.”
    4.They show that scientists involved in the report were assuming the role of climate activists attempting to influence public opinion while claiming scientific objectivity.

    By naming potential criminal offenses, Senator Inhofe raises the stakes for climate scientists and others involved. Dr. Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit has already been forced to step aside because of the Climategate FOIA issues, and Dr. Michael Mann of Penn State is currently under investigation by the university for potential misconduct. Adding possible criminal charges to the mix increases the possibility that some of the people involved may choose to blow the whistle in order to protect themselves.



  20. #1570
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Let's start from scratch.

    At a meeting on Monday of about 150 climate scientists, representatives of Britain’s weather office quietly proposed that the world’s climatologists start all over again to produce a new trove of global temperature data that is open to public scrutiny and “rigorous” peer review.

    After the firestorm of criticism called Climate-gate, the British government’s official Meteorological Office apparently has decided to wave a white flag and surrender.

    The new effort, the proposal says, would provide:

    –”verifiable datasets starting from a common databank of unrestricted data”

    –”methods that are fully documented in the peer reviewed literature and open to scrutiny;”

    –”a set of independent assessments of surface temperature produced by independent groups using independent methods,”

    –”comprehensive audit trails to deliver confidence in the results;”

    –”robust assessment of uncertainties associated with observational error, temporal and geographical in homogeneities.”

    I guess these standards were missing in the old effort.



  21. #1571
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  22. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    It states that storage is for 16hrs. what happens when we get a rain event like the past week in the cental areas of Australia. Would this mean we have balck outs if this was used here? Yes it all sounds good and I am all for it if it works. Nothing at all to do with AGW, in my book if it works and is viable do it.

    These technologies need to be persued irrespective of AGW.
    Storage is a technicality, and one that is often raised as a reason to dismiss when discussing alternative energy. I think that once we get serious about actually implementing this kind of technology we will come up with an appropriate solution, there are plenty of candidate ideas. Even firing up the old coalie would be a solution given that we would be saving the CO2 for almost 100% of the time anyway, and that might well be an interim solution given that the hardware is already in place.

    Ausra was started in Australia by an Aussie. It got moved to the US because of a lack of interest and support by the Australian Government. We're still getting the same claptrap about alternative energy from both sides of politics.

    woodbe.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  23. #1573
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    Haha. There are internet forums devoted to the subject of hacking into road signs. Armed with the right information and a slack contractor, any 12 year old could do it.

    woodbe.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  24. #1574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Freud View Post
    Senator James Inhofe (R-OK) today asked the Obama administration to investigate what he called “the greatest scientific scandal of our generation” — the actions of climate scientists revealed by the Climategate files, and the subsequent admissions by the editors of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Fourth Assessment Report (AR4).

    Senator Inhofe also called for former Vice President Al Gore to be called back to the Senate to testify.

    “In [Gore's] science fiction movie, every assertion has been rebutted,” Inhofe said. He believes Vice President Gore should defend himself and his movie before Congress.
    So will they call this 'The Inhofe Inquisition'? Seems like they are preparing to burn the witches at the stake.

    Oh my McCarthy!

    woodbe.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  25. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Headpin View Post
    There ya go, Rod.

    A little bit of friendly information from your friend and mine, Mr James..............perhaps the most knowledgeable person on the web...............in his own mind.
    Big deal so what.

    Your contribution to this thread is nothing but sh-t stiring and has lost any form of humour that it may have had in the begining.

    You have contributed nothing to the debate.
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  26. #1576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Why the cheap shot woodbe?
    Sorry if I offend, but we have been over this before, even in this very thread.

    You say you support this kind of technology, but everytime I mention it, it's greeted as if it's something new. Anyone with more than a passing interest in the subject would recall that there are very good technologies in place that have the capability of providing base load power without burning fossil fuels or glowing in the dark. It's the vested interest brigade who prolong the myth that it isn't possible.

    I'm sure that there are people in the audience who recognise a bit of a theme there, but I won't mention it so as to not offend your sceptic sensibilities.

    As for the taxpayer funding, that's a silly requirement. Who do you think paid for most of the existing power stations? Those are the kind of things that Governments do, even though the pendulum has swung towards private funding with government support in recent times, so you may get your wish. Whatever happens, you will pay for the hardware via your electricity bill.

    woodbe.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  27. #1577
    Mr Sexy Beast dazzler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    And you really believe that is achievable given population growth? It is impossible to achieve it here in Australia unless you fudge the numbers
    Yeeeehaaaaaaa.......We can agree on something...

    This is what really irks me, Rudd and Co go on and on about reducing emissions and then he wants to double the population.

    What a moron.
    I just love sheepies!

  28. #1578
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    And a cartoon drawn by ? means what
    The truth is out there but even when you have been shown to be wrong you still use smoke and mirrors and now cartoons , there have been over 1700 posts so far without any real evidence proving global warming or climate change and yet still the " I am right trust me " arguement is still here , some simple substantial proof of global warming has yet to be shown , so the people who now need to grasp at straws call it climate change , move the goldposts as such and still can't prove it , then the last fling try and ridicule anyone who dis-agrees with you and post silly cartoons.
    The word that comes to mind for people with such a mindset is pity
    Ashore




    The trouble with life is there's no background music.

  29. #1579
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default She's hot, even if the climate's not.



    The lovely Jo Nova explains some of:

    For direct PR comparisons though, just look at "Think Climate Think Change": the Australian Government put $13.9 million into just one quick advertising campaign. There is no question that there are vastly more financial rewards for people who promote a carbon-made catastrophe than for those who point out the flaws in the theory.

    Think again?

  30. #1580
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Talk about inconvenient.

    In March, Flannery said: "The water problem is so severe for Adelaide that it may run out of water by early 2009."

    In fact, Adelaide's reservoirs are now 75 per cent full, just weeks from 2009.

    In June last year, Flannery warned Brisbane's "water supplies are so low they need desalinated water urgently, possibly in as little as 18 months".

    In fact, 18 months later, its dams are 46 per cent full after Brisbane's wettest spring in 27 years.

    In 2005, Flannery predicted Sydney's dams could be dry in just two years.

    In fact, three years later its dams are 63 per cent full, not least because June last year was its wettest since 1951.

    In 2004, Flannery said global warming would cause such droughts that "there is a fair chance Perth will be the 21st century's first ghost metropolis".

    And now:



    Brisbane’s combined dam capacity has broken the 80 per cent mark for the first time in eight years as inflows continue to pour in across the catchments.

    The one about Perth may be right, but not because we run out of water, it's because we don't have daylight saving or shops open outside of business hours.

  31. #1581
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default The bait...


  32. #1582
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default and switch.


  33. #1583
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Just for laughs.


  34. #1584
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Yep.


  35. #1585
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default I wonder where he learned this "trick".


  36. #1586
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default $14 million?


  37. #1587
    2K Club Member Dr Freud's Avatar
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    Default Just as well.


  38. #1588
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Freud View Post
    In March, Flannery said: "The water problem is so severe for Adelaide that it may run out of water by early 2009."

    In fact, Adelaide's reservoirs are now 75 per cent full, just weeks from 2009.
    Tut tut. No proper reference, and therefore we are lost in time.

    Rather than spread more sceptic misinformation, it's worth looking at the facts.

    Flannery spoke those words in March 2008, while the drought and the lack of flow in the Murray was causing real panic among the crowd who administer such things as irrigation rights and making sure there is adequate domestic water for the population. Yes, it was a scary prediction.

    Talking about Adelaide's reservoirs as an indication of long term capacity is misinformation based on ignorance, and the reason it is misinformation is that those reservoirs are normally filled not by rainfall, but by pumping the Murray up there. Adelaide is dependant on the Murray. Period. If the Murray stops flowing, Adelaide is stuffed.

    The other bit of information about water that is conveniently ignored, not reported or made publicly obvious, is that in Adelaide, and probably many other places, domestic use is something around 10% of total consumption. Makes you think about those water restrictions, doesn't it?

    Proper management of Australia's water resource is the issue. Both sides of politics have repeatedly failed us on this, and we are now reliant on good luck with the seasons, and will shortly be reliant on a network of energy hogging desalination plants that (apart from Perth) would not be necessary if our governments had pulled their finger out 20 years ago when the warning bells started ringing.

    The reason we have water issues is because assumptions have been made that it is an inexhaustible resource in a time of climate change. We regularly drive through the Shepparton area - it's one of those irrigation areas that is served by open channels that have been proven to be some of the leakiest containers of water known to man - they have tested the losses, and about 50% is through the walls and floor of the channels and the other 50% is by evaporation. Big bucks is being spent in the region to 'fix' the losses, but wait for it, what they are doing is ignoring the evaporation issue - they are digging up the channels and lining them with a membrane to stop the seepage. So 100% of the losses will now be evaporation. The standard should be pipes, not open channels.

    Water is a serious issue for Australia, and the promise of billions of dollars to fix it has been a welcome sign that the depth of the problem is recognised in Canberra. The lack of visible effective long term action on the issue is very dissapointing.

    woodbe

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


  39. #1589
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Tut tut. No proper reference, and therefore we are lost in time.

    Rather than spread more sceptic misinformation, it's worth looking at the facts.

    Flannery spoke those words in March 2008, while the drought and the lack of flow in the Murray was causing real panic among the crowd who administer such things as irrigation rights and making sure there is adequate domestic water for the population. Yes, it was a scary prediction.

    Talking about Adelaide's reservoirs as an indication of long term capacity is misinformation based on ignorance, and the reason it is misinformation is that those reservoirs are normally filled not by rainfall, but by pumping the Murray up there. Adelaide is dependant on the Murray. Period. If the Murray stops flowing, Adelaide is stuffed.

    The other bit of information about water that is conveniently ignored, not reported or made publicly obvious, is that in Adelaide, and probably many other places, domestic use is something around 10% of total consumption. Makes you think about those water restrictions, doesn't it?

    Proper management of Australia's water resource is the issue. Both sides of politics have repeatedly failed us on this, and we are now reliant on good luck with the seasons, and will shortly be reliant on a network of energy hogging desalination plants that (apart from Perth) would not be necessary if our governments had pulled their finger out 20 years ago when the warning bells started ringing.

    The reason we have water issues is because assumptions have been made that it is an inexhaustible resource in a time of climate change. We regularly drive through the Shepparton area - it's one of those irrigation areas that is served by open channels that have been proven to be some of the leakiest containers of water known to man - they have tested the losses, and about 50% is through the walls and floor of the channels and the other 50% is by evaporation. Big bucks is being spent in the region to 'fix' the losses, but wait for it, what they are doing is ignoring the evaporation issue - they are digging up the channels and lining them with a membrane to stop the seepage. So 100% of the losses will now be evaporation. The standard should be pipes, not open channels.

    Water is a serious issue for Australia, and the promise of billions of dollars to fix it has been a welcome sign that the depth of the problem is recognised in Canberra. The lack of visible effective long term action on the issue is very dissapointing.

    woodbe
    Yes it is an improtant issue but not because of Climate Change. Try bad practices like your open drains and increase in population growth, farming and industry, without an increase in storage facility.

    Dam the Mitchel.
    GREAT PLASTERING TIPS AT


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    Default

    Climate change puts a strong focus on it because it has been mismanaged for such a long time.

    My little post was in response to some misinformation posted by one of the resident sceptics, it was not meant to be a pro-agw post per se.

    woodbe.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


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    Default I love the peer review system when it works this well.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Tut tut. No proper reference, and therefore we are lost in time.

    Rather than spread more sceptic misinformation, it's worth looking at the facts.

    Flannery spoke those words in March 2008, while the drought and the lack of flow in the Murray was causing real panic among the crowd who administer such things as irrigation rights and making sure there is adequate domestic water for the population. Yes, it was a scary prediction.

    Talking about Adelaide's reservoirs as an indication of long term capacity is misinformation based on ignorance, and the reason it is misinformation is that those reservoirs are normally filled not by rainfall, but by pumping the Murray up there. Adelaide is dependant on the Murray. Period. If the Murray stops flowing, Adelaide is stuffed.

    The other bit of information about water that is conveniently ignored, not reported or made publicly obvious, is that in Adelaide, and probably many other places, domestic use is something around 10% of total consumption. Makes you think about those water restrictions, doesn't it?

    Proper management of Australia's water resource is the issue. Both sides of politics have repeatedly failed us on this, and we are now reliant on good luck with the seasons, and will shortly be reliant on a network of energy hogging desalination plants that (apart from Perth) would not be necessary if our governments had pulled their finger out 20 years ago when the warning bells started ringing.

    The reason we have water issues is because assumptions have been made that it is an inexhaustible resource in a time of climate change. We regularly drive through the Shepparton area - it's one of those irrigation areas that is served by open channels that have been proven to be some of the leakiest containers of water known to man - they have tested the losses, and about 50% is through the walls and floor of the channels and the other 50% is by evaporation. Big bucks is being spent in the region to 'fix' the losses, but wait for it, what they are doing is ignoring the evaporation issue - they are digging up the channels and lining them with a membrane to stop the seepage. So 100% of the losses will now be evaporation. The standard should be pipes, not open channels.

    Water is a serious issue for Australia, and the promise of billions of dollars to fix it has been a welcome sign that the depth of the problem is recognised in Canberra. The lack of visible effective long term action on the issue is very dissapointing.

    woodbe
    Gee whiz, if only the IPCC were scrutinised this well, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

    “No proper reference?”- Mr Andrew Bolt is a very reputable and credible journalist in Australia, so if you are calling this reputable journalists work into question, then maybe you are best directing your criticism to these guys.

    But to save you the hassle and also demonstrate Mr Bolt’s accuracy, I’ll even post the source article, with no witty repartee about inadequate Google skills.

    As for lost in time, apologies for not spelling it out but at the risk of sounding condescending, here goes.

    The article was labelled and dated:

    Top 10 dud predictions

    • Andrew Bolt
    • December 19, 2008 12:00AM

    With this in the text:

    In March, Flannery said: "The water problem is so severe for Adelaide that it may run out of water by early 2009."

    By writing in December 2008, that “in March, Flannery said”, with the prediction for early 2009, by convention of implication it is generally accepted that the reference was for March 2008. For example, if I said to you that this AGW fiasco will be even more discredited by October, it is implicit that in the absence of a specified year, I am referring to 2010 (ie. this year), as opposed to 2072. But as I said above, the source quote should clear all this up. Apologies for not having the day and time, but perhaps you could get these from Tim.

    As for misinformation: He said it; it was bogus; and even you admit it was “a scary prediction”.

    If by “misinformation” you mean I omitted a detailed description of this great nation’s water infrastructure, then guilty as charged. But if people are really interested in this, then there’s nothing stopping them researching it themselves. But really, this has nothing too with the point, which was Tim Flannery was involved in baseless scaremongering. Apologies if this also sounds condescending, but I thought this point was obvious.

    As for Adelaide not being supplied by rainfall, how does water get into the Murray Darling? By your logic, no dams are filled by rainfall, but by above ground or below ground runoff. Whether this dam delivery system is man made or erosion made, I think it’s a safe bet most of it came from the sky. As for Adelaide being stuffed, I guess they will just evacuate the entire city (state?) rather than installing desal plants or a pipeline?

    But I think our good friend Rod is onto something about population, farming practices and lack of dams.

    You see, here’s the rainfall for the Murray Darling area:



    And what happened to people’s use of this stable resource?

    Here's our population growth:



    Maybe if we stored more water than we used to, we’d be OK?

    Uh oh, steady rainfall pattern, rising population, rising water usage, greenies anti-water storage policies...I wonder where how this story will end?



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    Default Exhaustion?

    Hey, I think I figured out why we in Australia have not had an investigation into the dodgy science behind the whole AGW Theory debacle. It may be that the Auditor General, the Senate Committees and the Federal Law Enforcement agencies are just suffering sheer exhaustion after all the investigations into Rudd's policy failures and mismanagement. Here's just a sample:


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    Default Water?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Freud View Post
    Gee whiz, if only the IPCC were scrutinised this well, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

    “No proper reference?”- Mr Andrew Bolt is a very reputable and credible journalist in Australia, so if you are calling this reputable journalists work into question, then maybe you are best directing your criticism to these guys.
    Apologies doc. I didn't notice the reference buried in your text. It's there all right.

    As for misinformation: He said it; it was bogus; and even you admit it was “a scary prediction”.
    [..]
    As for Adelaide not being supplied by rainfall, how does water get into the Murray Darling? By your logic, no dams are filled by rainfall, but by above ground or below ground runoff.
    It was scary, but it was also a real concern at the time. It was not bogus.

    Unlike the east coast, Adelaide does not have enough rainfall to supply it's own water needs, therefore it is reliant on water making it's way through the Murray/Darling. The Darling has been a non-issue for SA since the Menindee Lakes dried up early in the drought - only this year and after a lot of interstate argy-bargy has there been enough water in the Darling to let the Darling flow into SA.

    At the time, Flannery was voicing the concerns of the regulators. You might not like that, and with 20/20 hindsight and a couple of good rainy seasons in the Darling Catchment and some aggressive posturing from the SA Government clearly the concern has eased.

    Bolt, and you by quoting it, are engaged in a misinformation campaign. The concerns at the time were real, and justified. Concerns remain about water management that even you and Rod recognise.

    You see, here’s the rainfall for the Murray Darling area:





    Nice pretty graph doc. It would be more relevant to graph the river flows into SA than rainfall. Australia has oodles of rainfall, it just isn't always where the population is.

    woodbe.


    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


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    Default Message from Tamino to Anthony Watts

    Well, well, well.

    Our resident sceptics 'haven't got the time' to do the research, and Anthony has been playing games about code and replication.

    It's not looking good

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamino
    Anthony:

    It has now been independenly confirmed, by multiple persons, that my results regarding the impact of station dropout on global temperature are correct. Your claims, in your document with Joe D’Aleo for the SPPI, are just plain wrong.

    You’ve avoided answering this criticism, claiming that you can’t replicate my results without my code. Yet several others managed to do just that. It’s not that difficult, and you were irresponsible not to investigate this issue before publishing your claims. The posts by E.M. Smith are so incoherent they resemble the ravings of a lunatic more than the results of a qualified analyst. Your only other response has been to call me a coward for blogging under a pseudonym. That’s nothing but a desperate attempt of a scoundrel to deflect attention from his own misdeeds.

    Furthermore, your use of false claims to accuse NOAA scientists of deliberate deception was not just mistaken, it was unethical.

    If you have any honor at all, you’ll set the record straight. You owe it to everyone, and especially to NOAA, to admit that you were wrong. And you certainly owe it to NOAA to apologize. You need to make a highly visible, highly public admission of error, and apology, for using falsehoods to accuse others of fraud.

    Are you man enough?
    woodbe.

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


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    .

    Roadmap of the Climategate fiasco....The scientists lied:

    United States Senate Report-‘Consensus’ Exposed: The CRU Controversy

    http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...5-12b7df1a0b63



    .





    .
    Last edited by Allen James; 7th Mar 2010 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Link changed - so I updated it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Headpin View Post
    I find that hard to believe, Doc. That's not a very realistic picture. The rain was falling in the wrong direction.
    The Doc must have been standing on his head when he originally posted this picture .............

    OK, if you ignore all the useless information posted in the picture, and use a little imagination you can almost believe that this is a picture of rain.


    .
    .
    .




    .


    .

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    Default The sweet sounds of science.


  49. #1599
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    Default Cover up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen James View Post
    .

    Roadmap of the Climategate fiasco....The scientists lied:

    United States Senate Report-‘Consensus’ Exposed: The CRU Controversy

    http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=7d b3fbd8-f1b4-4fdf-bd15-12b7df1a0b63


    .



    The document you requested can not be found or is undergoing routine maintenance.

    If this is an application error, the system administrator has been notified by email.

    Just like the data underwent "routine maintenance"?

  50. #1600
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    Default Two simple fixes.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Apologies doc. I didn't notice the reference buried in your text. It's there all right.

    It was scary, but it was also a real concern at the time. It was not bogus.

    Unlike the east coast, Adelaide does not have enough rainfall to supply it's own water needs, therefore it is reliant on water making it's way through the Murray/Darling. The Darling has been a non-issue for SA since the Menindee Lakes dried up early in the drought - only this year and after a lot of interstate argy-bargy has there been enough water in the Darling to let the Darling flow into SA.

    At the time, Flannery was voicing the concerns of the regulators. You might not like that, and with 20/20 hindsight and a couple of good rainy seasons in the Darling Catchment and some aggressive posturing from the SA Government clearly the concern has eased.

    Bolt, and you by quoting it, are engaged in a misinformation campaign. The concerns at the time were real, and justified. Concerns remain about water management that even you and Rod recognise.





    Nice pretty graph doc. It would be more relevant to graph the river flows into SA than rainfall. Australia has oodles of rainfall, it just isn't always where the population is.

    woodbe.

    Two simple solutions, either move the population or move the water.

    Maybe we could use some of this money?

    This might sound crazy, but what if we actually spent money on solutions, instead of researching theories?

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