Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #17251
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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    there's also this: https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/File...Fact-Sheet.pdf
    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    Another dint in my belief in the fact "professor" can be smart.
    errr... well actually....

    Intelligence and its relation to addiction / Addiction Education Blog - www.cnsproductions.com

    INTELLIGENCE AND ITS RELATION TO ADDICTION


    Posted on November 28, 2011

    A new longitudinal study into the relationship between measured levels of intelligence, and addiction shows a marked tendency toward more addiction behavior among those with higher IQs -- twice as much for men, and a three times greater likelihood among women. Also a look at new research on brain physiology and its relation to pain.
    but anywhooooo....
    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    Scientists have been making projections of future global warming using climate models of increasing complexity for the past four decades. How well have climate models projected global warming?

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ38rf7F3al/
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    The only thing I can agree with is it is going to be astronomically expensive to replace the coal fired base load. Private industry won't do it as they want quick returns and to do that the power price would be through the roof.
    Over the next five years, the International Energy Agency projects renewables growing by roughly 1,000 gigawatts. “That is half of the total capacity of coal fired power plants worldwide,” said Frankl, “and it has taken 80 years to build all of those.” It isn't all being "done by governments" either, quite the contrary, it's being driven by economics. See for yourself:

    Renewables 2017
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    The only reason private enterprise gets involved is because its like a toll road. Just build it and let the money flow in. They don't give a damn about base load or our need for it.

  7. #17257
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    Default Emission Trading and climate change

    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    The only reason private enterprise gets involved is because its like a toll road. Just build it and let the money flow in. They don't give a damn about base load or our need for it.
    Free market economy 101. That's the Liberal way. Privatise profit and put loss on the public purse.

    We (the Royal we) don't need base load. Very few ordinary people do. But quite a few big businesses do and they pay sod all for it...just saying
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    As far as I remember it was Labour that pulled the trigger on this mess, in conjunction with appeasing the greens. They betrayed the Australian people without any thought with their money wasting ideals. Not to mention the near useless NBN, batts, halls, sea water and whatever else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post

    We (the Royal we) don't need base load. Very few ordinary people do. But quite a few big businesses do and they pay sod all for it...just saying
    Really, let's cut off SA and see how they cope on batteries after a string of hot nights.

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    Default Emission Trading and climate change

    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Really, let's cut off SA and see how they cope on batteries after a string of hot nights.
    I'm cool with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    I'm cool with that.
    They won't

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    Default Emission Trading and climate change

    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    They won't
    More qualified people than you or I seem to think otherwise. Either way I'm happy to watch the experiment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    Free market economy 101. That's the Liberal way. Privatise profit and put loss on the public purse.

    We (the Royal we) don't need base load. Very few ordinary people do. But quite a few big businesses do and they pay sod all for it...just saying
    Who employ people and pay taxes to employ people, just sayin'



    old way - can govt legitamately get involved in a business of service provision

    new way - is govt needed to get involved, if not run it privately.

    all that privatising in the eighties and nineties immediately preceded the largest growth in real household net income in decades upto 2007 nb : unfortunately most of that increase seemed to have been spent on bank loans for housing etc

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    Default Emission Trading and climate change

    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy2 View Post
    Who employ people and pay taxes to employ people, just sayin'



    old way - can govt legitamately get involved in a business of service provision

    new way - is govt needed to get involved, if not run it privately.

    all that privatising in the eighties and nineties immediately preceded the largest growth in real household net income in decades upto 2007 nb : unfortunately most of that increase seemed to have been spent on bank loans for housing etc
    True...like I said, that's the free market for you. As long as the Government has the will and capacity to cover for the odd market failure then we are all good.
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    Policy idea

    Storage hot water systems, pool pumps, hard wired air conditioners can be wired to a controlled circuit for a 20% discount to electricity. The controlled circuit can be shut down for a max of 30min per 60 min during high load on a suburb by suburb basis.

    so, when short of power, instead of winding up the gas burners et al, or turning off lights, ovens, restricting industry , domestic air cons and pools are turned off - you could easily shed 20% right there without impacting people or the economy.

    last heatwave they very nearly ended the life of a smelter that employs directly and indirectly some 5000 people, all because it was the single easiest target for a lack of generation (closing it apart from the impact on people's lives also just moved the energy use overseas)

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    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy2 View Post
    Policy idea

    Storage hot water systems, pool pumps, hard wired air conditioners can be wired to a controlled circuit for a 20% discount to electricity. The controlled circuit can be shut down for a max of 30min per 60 min during high load on a suburb by suburb basis.

    so, when short of power, instead of winding up the gas burners et al, or turning off lights, ovens, restricting industry , domestic air cons and pools are turned off - you could easily shed 20% right there without impacting people or the economy.

    last heatwave they very nearly ended the life of a smelter that employs directly and indirectly some 5000 people, all because it was the single easiest target for a lack of generation (closing it apart from the impact on people's lives also just moved the energy use overseas)
    Already on the move for A/C users in three states:

    Power bills: Why the Government wants to pay you to switch off this summer - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Those who want to ignore the science are increasingly alone. They are on their own shrinking island.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy2 View Post
    you could easily shed 20% right there without impacting people or the economy.
    do residential HWS, HVAC & pool pumps make up 20% of the electricity consumed? that's a lot.
    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    True...like I said, that's the free market for you.
    it's not really an economically efficient market when a retailer is also a producer...
    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    See how brilliant I am!

    no need to muck around, just get it done.

    ultimately, the market currently doesn't work because the price signal goes to the retailer not to the person on the consumption end - the very large majority are still on all excess power use over some arbitrary number pay the same regardless.

    not exactly an innovative industry

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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy2 View Post
    not exactly an innovative industry
    It's not like the industry hasn't been screaming for reform, but that isn't going to happen while Turnbull is hostage to the lunatic fringe of "Liberal" neocons. Meanwhile the industry is compelled to act within the confines set by the government's archaic energy policy framework.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Meanwhile the industry is compelled to act within the confines set by the government's archaic energy policy framework.
    Which is?
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    Either way I'm happy to watch the experiment.
    I doubt they want to try that experiment!

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    Coming back in vogue in a suburb near you. Jobs will be created to shovel manure, apply within.


    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedford View Post
    Which is?
    well, to simplify it for you - in the words of the AER, the framework is one that embodies:

    High levels of market concentration and vertical integration between generators and retailers [that] lead to market structures that may provide opportunities for the exercise of market power."
    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavoSyd View Post
    well, to simplify it for you - in the words of the AER, the framework is one that embodies:

    High levels of market concentration and vertical integration between generators and retailers [that] lead to market structures that may provide opportunities for the exercise of market power."
    .... confounding the question to make a statement!!

  27. #17277
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    We've ascertained proximity from the personification of redundant axioms, presupposed upon tautological repetitions, and enhanced our paradoxical paradigms via redundant innovations.
    Vertical integration between the adulators and the claque will galvanise the market of subsidies and subsidence, gilding further the already embellished dispensation of tributes from the oblivious remunerators.
    Delenda est holeribusque.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
    John Adams

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    Default Emission Trading and climate change

    Quote Originally Posted by Bedford View Post
    Which is?
    Therein lies the problem...
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  29. #17279
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    Strange how the government is meant to explain a policy for what was inherited. Well before that everything was just fine. Then the idea of capturing wind and sun has tuned it on it's head. How is it that policy wasn't talked about back then!
    All government fumble through issues. Wait until Shorten gets in with his lot, watch them frig around with the greens pecking at their backsides.

  30. #17280
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    Default Emission Trading and climate change

    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Strange how the government is meant to explain a policy for what was inherited. Well before that everything was just fine. Then the idea of capturing wind and sun has tuned it on it's head. How is it that policy wasn't talked about back then!
    All government fumble through issues. Wait until Shorten gets in with his lot, watch them frig around with the greens pecking at their backsides.
    Truth is they didn't inherit a policy. Previous mob didn't really have one either. They did have a renewable energy policy and legislation to boot but both of those were shot in the head. And not replaced with anything else.

    In the absence of anything useful (outside of the market regulator), the market has had its own ideas. As markets do...and all power to them if you'll pardon the pun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    We've ascertained proximity from the personification of redundant axioms, presupposed upon tautological repetitions, and enhanced our paradoxical paradigms via redundant innovations.
    Vertical integration between the adulators and the claque will galvanise the market of subsidies and subsidence, gilding further the already embellished dispensation of tributes from the oblivious remunerators.
    Delenda est holeribusque.
    I had one of those but the axle broke and I threw it away.

  32. #17282
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly View Post
    Truth is they didn't inherit a policy.
    no, they had a MANDATE didn't they?

    and haven't the LNP squandered that...

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    Default Emission Trading and climate change

    Quote Originally Posted by DavoSyd View Post
    no, they had a MANDATE didn't they?

    and haven't the LNP squandered that...
    If you say so...I couldn't possibly give a rats anus.

    My quality of life hasn't got anything but better over the last 30 years and it's my view that neither politics or politicians of any particular persuasion have had very much to do with it. They are however a very necessary evil in the sort of society I'd prefer to live in.
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  34. #17284
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    wow, the twists and turns this thread keeps taking!

    it's like a pick-a-path!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavoSyd View Post
    wow, the twists and turns this thread keeps taking!

    it's like a pick-a-path!
    Meanwhile back in the real world, 2017 is so unexpectedly warm it is freaking out the record keepers...

    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  36. #17286
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    my grass is dying...

  37. #17287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Coming back in vogue in a suburb near you. Jobs will be created to shovel manure, apply within.
    Taking things into one's own hands is coming back in vogue. You need to keep abreast of the times, Marc.

    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  38. #17288
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    There is no bigger injustice than those who live and use a community and do not contribute to it one iota taking always and never giving. If the same people stand on soap boxes and make demands ... the injustice becomes a sick joke.

    Why I would like a flat rate tax:

    In a "progressive" rate tax system, the more you earn the more you pay right? Seems fair.
    Well it isn't. Depending in which country you live, this may be different but the concept is the same.

    Say you earn $50,000 a year, you pay $8,547 in tax. Fair? I suppose so.
    What happens if you earn twice as much, so $100,000 a year? Well you would pay double that right? Wrong! You pay $26,947 or triple the rate.
    And if you earn three times that? that is $150,000 a year? Well your bill is $46,447. What is that 5 times the rate?

    If you earn twice that again, so $300,000? hold on to your seat, you pay $116,847.

    So in other words, if you earn $50,000 you pay about 17% in tax. If you earn $300,000 you pay 39% or almost 14 times the rate when you actually earned 6 times the amount.
    Fair?

    The most common justification for this atrocious injustice is that "rich people can afford to pay more".
    "Affording" is an absurd concept that pre judges what is essential and what is not, making determinations for a third party of what is necessary or superfluous for that person. A gross invasion of privacy.

    All the justifications for this regressive and punitive system are based on a deep rooted bias against wealth. An ancestral idea rooted in poor interpretations of religious beliefs that money is evil, that the rich become rich at the expense of the poor and a lot of other aberrations. Governments of course do not act based on this believes but do so because the voters believe it. Voters see it as fair to punish those who dare earn this "obscene" amounts. Governments know it is way easier to tax an individual then a corporation.

    A business pays 28.5% of net earnings regardless of amount. You make 100,000 you pay 28.5% you make 100,000,000 you pay 28.5% ... still way too high but at least it is equitable between businesses.
    Now that's justice. that is fair.

    Another massive injustice is in the rules for "tax deductions" from your income. A business can deduct from gross earnins even the coffee beans used in the office. The biggest group of taxpayers, the employees, have been slowly stripped from every possible deduction down to almost nothing at all. Even transport to and from your place of work, something that clearly is essential to earn your keep is taken away, and everything else with it.

    Iif you add to this the fact that 50% of taxpayers pay no NET tax at all since what they pay in taxes they get back in benefits or deductions, and another fact that a low income earner uses way more public resources than a high income earner does per capita, this system is so unfair that it is almost unbelievable that it even exists in the current form.
    I say let's have a flat rate of tax for everyone with no exceptions and no possible deductions. No claiming anything at all. Pay the flat rate of ... well whatever it will have to be to be revenue neutral ... what? 20%, 25%? No deductions and everyone pays the same confounded rate, no exceptions.

    Let's have a flat rate political party!

    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    Marc, I don't think people really earn their overly big pay packets so I reckon it is fair to slug them hard...just saying.

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    Phil ... your reply contains two counts of bias that are uncalled for.
    Don't really earn ... define "earning".
    Overly big ... please set parameters.

    If you take emotions like resentment, jealousy, envy out of the equation, conceded not easy, your reply is not rational. Payments for service rendered are based on what the employer is prepared to pay. Sometimes the employer gets it wrong, and must terminate the contract. Most of the time offer and demand balances the pay of almost everyone.
    There is a market for what you can offer and there is a value for what you can offer. If it is scarce you are worth more, if it is common you are worth less. The stock phrase "no one is worth that much" comes from those who are worth less (in pay scale mind you) referring to those who are getting paid more.

    The size of the pay is a well known contention. What is ordinary, say pay under 100k a year gross, are deemed "OK". Pays over $500k are deemed "Obscene".
    It may be popular belief but that does not make it correct.
    If you are getting paid 2 millions for conquering a new market for a company, then your pay is cut down to $500k because the public perceives that you are not earning your pay, I think you will suddenly see my point of view.

    To have 50% of people in the workforce paying zero real tax money, and that is not considering those who do not work at all ... is not a fair society, is an unbalanced, biased society that milks the successful to run a pretend altruistic society based on the effort of a few. Sure, you can say that without population to consume, companies wouldn't have consumers. Rather baseless because no one can live in isolation and we all depend from each other.
    And precisely because of that we should all pay the same percentage of tax without any deductions of any sort. And those who earn more should be applauded and used as example to aspire to, and not a target to be shunned.
    Those who choose not to work and depend from others for their keep, should have no say in how the nation is run. No tax return, no vote.
    This would make the above debate go away in a flash.
    And the Labor party would probably disappear if they can no longer be voted in by promising money for nothing to capture the idle vote.
    In my opinion anyway
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
    John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    There is no bigger injustice than those who live and use a community and do not contribute to it one iota taking always and never giving. If the same people stand on soap boxes and make demands ... the injustice becomes a sick joke.

    Why I would like a flat rate tax:

    In a "progressive" rate tax system, the more you earn the more you pay right? Seems fair.
    Well it isn't. Depending in which country you live, this may be different but the concept is the same.

    Say you earn $50,000 a year, you pay $8,547 in tax. Fair? I suppose so.
    What happens if you earn twice as much, so $100,000 a year? Well you would pay double that right? Wrong! You pay $26,947 or triple the rate.
    And if you earn three times that? that is $150,000 a year? Well your bill is $46,447. What is that 5 times the rate?

    If you earn twice that again, so $300,000? hold on to your seat, you pay $116,847.

    So in other words, if you earn $50,000 you pay about 17% in tax. If you earn $300,000 you pay 39% or almost 14 times the rate when you actually earned 6 times the amount.
    Fair?

    The most common justification for this atrocious injustice is that "rich people can afford to pay more".
    "Affording" is an absurd concept that pre judges what is essential and what is not, making determinations for a third party of what is necessary or superfluous for that person. A gross invasion of privacy.

    All the justifications for this regressive and punitive system are based on a deep rooted bias against wealth. An ancestral idea rooted in poor interpretations of religious beliefs that money is evil, that the rich become rich at the expense of the poor and a lot of other aberrations. Governments of course do not act based on this believes but do so because the voters believe it. Voters see it as fair to punish those who dare earn this "obscene" amounts. Governments know it is way easier to tax an individual then a corporation.

    A business pays 28.5% of net earnings regardless of amount. You make 100,000 you pay 28.5% you make 100,000,000 you pay 28.5% ... still way too high but at least it is equitable between businesses.
    Now that's justice. that is fair.

    Another massive injustice is in the rules for "tax deductions" from your income. A business can deduct from gross earnins even the coffee beans used in the office. The biggest group of taxpayers, the employees, have been slowly stripped from every possible deduction down to almost nothing at all. Even transport to and from your place of work, something that clearly is essential to earn your keep is taken away, and everything else with it.

    Iif you add to this the fact that 50% of taxpayers pay no NET tax at all since what they pay in taxes they get back in benefits or deductions, and another fact that a low income earner uses way more public resources than a high income earner does per capita, this system is so unfair that it is almost unbelievable that it even exists in the current form.
    I say let's have a flat rate of tax for everyone with no exceptions and no possible deductions. No claiming anything at all. Pay the flat rate of ... well whatever it will have to be to be revenue neutral ... what? 20%, 25%? No deductions and everyone pays the same confounded rate, no exceptions.

    Let's have a flat rate political party!

    Will your proposed flat tax policy also apply to unearned income?

  42. #17292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Phil ... your reply contains two counts of bias that are uncalled for.
    Don't really earn ... define "earning".
    Overly big ... please set parameters.

    If you take emotions like resentment, jealousy, envy out of the equation, conceded not easy, your reply is not rational. Payments for service rendered are based on what the employer is prepared to pay. Sometimes the employer gets it wrong, and must terminate the contract. Most of the time offer and demand balances the pay of almost everyone.
    There is a market for what you can offer and there is a value for what you can offer. If it is scarce you are worth more, if it is common you are worth less. The stock phrase "no one is worth that much" comes from those who are worth less (in pay scale mind you) referring to those who are getting paid more.

    The size of the pay is a well known contention. What is ordinary, say pay under 100k a year gross, are deemed "OK". Pays over $500k are deemed "Obscene".
    It may be popular belief but that does not make it correct.
    If you are getting paid 2 millions for conquering a new market for a company, then your pay is cut down to $500k because the public perceives that you are not earning your pay, I think you will suddenly see my point of view.

    To have 50% of people in the workforce paying zero real tax money, and that is not considering those who do not work at all ... is not a fair society, is an unbalanced, biased society that milks the successful to run a pretend altruistic society based on the effort of a few. Sure, you can say that without population to consume, companies wouldn't have consumers. Rather baseless because no one can live in isolation and we all depend from each other.
    And precisely because of that we should all pay the same percentage of tax without any deductions of any sort. And those who earn more should be applauded and used as example to aspire to, and not a target to be shunned.
    Those who choose not to work and depend from others for their keep, should have no say in how the nation is run. No tax return, no vote.
    This would make the above debate go away in a flash.
    And the Labor party would probably disappear if they can no longer be voted in by promising money for nothing to capture the idle vote.
    In my opinion anyway
    Marc, pay your taxes and be happy. By all means feel free to tell us all about how hard you work and how much you make, but don’t grizzle over paying your share of tax.

    As for your claimed 50% who don’t pay net taxes, how many are those who earning considerable income have structured their tax affairs to artificially minimise their taxable income? Negative gearing anyone?

    Philosophically, I have trouble believing that someone who earns 100x the average income contributes 100x the value or effort to society.

    Anyway, why are we discussing tax in a climate change thread?
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    Anyway, why are we discussing tax in a climate change thread?
    because one participant likes to feel that he controls the discussion?
    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    One Nation and some of their fellow travellers from Libertyworks had a love-in here in Brisbane last weekend. The main topic was climate change but I'm sure some of their other over simplistic ideas got an airing as well. The flat tax has been part of One Nation policy in the past (the flat earth one might have been there too) but perhaps Hanson picked up a high school maths textbook and realised it wouldn't work.

    Basically the answer is that Aust voters have repeatedly showed their preference for a certain level of welfare. We are particularly fussy about caring for our returned soldiers and the elderly; we want a health system that works, and unemployment benefits are just basic math; dole =$12,000pa, jail=$80,000. People have to eat, they'll find a way. The myth that there are hundreds of thousands out there who refuse to work is just that , a myth.

    To maintain our current level of services a flat tax would have to be about 35c/$, this is enough to push low income earners into a position where they need govt assistance. So the govt is then in the position of taking and giving back with all the necessary bureaucracy required to do that. There are countries where a flat tax is in effect, Mongolia and Ukraine among them. Flights leaving every day for those who want to experience the joys of it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    [a] As for your claimed 50% who don’t pay net taxes, how many are those who earning considerable income have structured their tax affairs to artificially minimise their taxable income? Negative gearing anyone?

    [b] Philosophically, I have trouble believing that someone who earns 100x the average income contributes 100x the value or effort to society.

    [c] Anyway, why are we discussing tax in a climate change thread?
    [a] It's not 'my' claim but tax data. 50% of those who work pay zero net tax once all the concessions are taken into account. Claiming expenses from a second business like rental property is a genuine business deduction and there is nothing "artificial" in it.

    If you don't like property owners claiming expenses, try telling a business they can no longer claim the losses they incur when conducting their business. Your words:" To structure their tax affairs to artificially minimise their taxable income..." is rather funny. Do you "structure your tax affair to maximise your tax bill"?

    Minimising tax is a requirement if you want to stay in business.
    The fact that an employee can not claim any expenses at all and is therefore the big mug when it comes to tax time is a defect I have addressed in my first post.
    The fact that an individual is required to pay so much more than a business earning the same amounts is an aberration that needs addressing.
    The fact that common people resent those who do well and resent businesses having better understanding of the tax law and being better at adapting to it's constant changes is deplorable and precisely my point. I go further, I say no more deductions of any kind against a salary and everyone pays a flat rate of tax, the key word being everyone pays the same rate.

    [b] It's not about your particular philosophy of life but about market. I have trouble believing a washed and torn jean is worth twice as much as one that is in pristine condition but that is the market and I have no say in it.
    If I am able to produce an app that makes me 150 millions, I am sure someone somewhere will have a grand objection to philosophically accept that I made such amount of money and they made zip... and the philosophy is mainly based on their share ( that is zip), and not so much about what I hypothetically made.
    The philosophy of money is mainly an array of thoughts about other peoples money. I find that also very funny.

    Contribution to society in my little debate is measured in how much tax you pay. Sure there are other contributions like voluntary work ( that in my view only highlight the incompetence of governments)

    Then there is the popular perception that there are some jobs that are more "valuable" than others. Who contributes more to society? ... a carpenter, plumber, teacher, doctor, dentist, barrister, judge, cleaner, lollipop man? ... answer ... each one contributes as much as he pays in taxes because his job, whatever the nature of his job is, he got paid to do it so there is no "virtue" in it.
    The right to conduct business is paid by with taxes, the rest is political BS and philosophical clap trap. If someone is not paying any tax (50% of taxpayers claw back all of it) something is severely wrong with the way we charge tax and "negative gearing" has nothing to do with it because a rental property generates 10 times the amount of income for others than the pittance that it is allowed to claim in expenses.

    [c] The threat of global warming is a fraud that was invented to shift resources and power towards an area of the economy that is otherwise non viable. It's like selling ice cream to the eskimos. Give enough subsidies and even that becomes viable.

    When the producers of this big con are clearly not from the left of politics but big barons of industry, they have devised this fraud in a way that it appeals to the left and the greens ... well same thing ... and it is the left that pushes for more personal income tax, more business tax, more handouts and more expenses even when we are broke.
    It is the left that pushes for more expenditure towards renewables that are a gargantuan black hole that gives nothing back. How much have we cooled the planet after 20 years of throwing trillions towards it? Answer nothing.

    So my point is simple. Simplify the tax system with a flat rate, and take the vote away from those who contribute nothing to society in the form of tax, no tax return no vote, and silence forever this debate.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
    John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    So my point is simple. Simplify the tax system with a flat rate, and take the vote away from those who contribute nothing to society in the form of tax, no tax return no vote,
    so my mum shouldn't be allowed to vote?

    that doesn't sound very fair or rational? in fact it seems very unfair and very irrational...

    or is that your underlying point - life is unfair and should not make sense?
    freedom of expression freedom from consequences...

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    In Marc's plan the returned soldier on disability because of injuries received in the line of duty, the elderly who have worked their whole life, the parent who takes a few years off to raise their kids, the student who stays at university longer to get better qualifications are all not entitled to vote. But also those who structure their finances to reduce their tax liability to zero lose the vote as well. It is as stupid as it sounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilT2 View Post
    In Marc's plan the returned soldier on disability because of injuries received in the line of duty, the elderly who have worked their whole life, the parent who takes a few years off to raise their kids, the student who stays at university longer to get better qualifications are all not entitled to vote. But also those who structure their finances to reduce their tax liability to zero lose the vote as well. It is as stupid as it sounds.
    I suspect in Marc's world those who line their own pockets are the ones who contribute and as a result should get to pay little or no tax. There is no obligation to contribute in any form, however money is the social key, someone who contributes through volunteer work obviously has no value nor those in Phil's post. The individual is king the community is worthless. Bit sad really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    I suspect in Marc's world those who line their own pockets are the ones who contribute and as a result should get to pay little or no tax. There is no obligation to contribute in any form, however money is the social key, someone who contributes through volunteer work obviously has no value nor those in Phil's post. The individual is king the community is worthless. Bit sad really.
    To continue on with this theme...

    I suspect that in Marc’s world.... Marc thinks that he is the victim as he thinks that he is somehow paying too much tax. I suspect that he thinking it is a waste of taxpayers money to support layabouts (such as pensioners and the disabled) when the tax system could be restructured to support him instead.

    (this is fun ).
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

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    If a universal flat rate of tax on income was applied, on both what was 'earned' through personal endeavour and what was 'un-earned' such as capital gains, share options or returns on investments, then those Australians with the highest incomes would be the hardest hit by a considerable margin. The treasury would be embarrassed by the riches it had to manage if government condoned and 'non conforming' tax dodges were forgone. Those who are wealthy enough can and do use company structures, discretionary trust accounts, deeming, self managed superannuation funds and super contributions, mortgage offset accounts, negative gearing, shelf companies and investment management entities to minimise tax to an extent not even dreamed about by the average Ozzie bludger that Marc likes to pillory. And since the pollies on both sides are all into it themselves, there is not a chance of meaningful taxation reform anytime soon.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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