Emission Trading and climate change

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  1. #151
    rrobor
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    You know very well what I objected to. I could also tell you that I worked for a large multi national who blackmailed Australia and robbed Australia. All parts were sourced in the homeland and supplied from there. Part was bought in Australia for a cent paid for from overseas then sold to the customers from overseas for a dollar. You have not been involved in business nor do you understand that. So when you say Comrade, to who? to a firm shafting Australia or to Australia. Cripes I thought we were done with reds under the beds when Mal lost the election.

  2. #152
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    Matt do you really believe your view of the economy under an ETS will be a rosy as that?

    Co2 by the way is not pollution. I have no problem with reducing pollution (something we have done very well without an ETS).

    Wy introduce an ETS that will achieve NOTHING yet cost a lot just to fix a nonexistant problem anyway. All those great things you say will happen in a normal market if they are economically viable anyway.

    If what you say is true, that is, in 5 years we will be living no different than we do now. What is the point? Emissions will not, can not, be reduced in Australia or any other country without reducing living standards or building nuclear power stations all over the world then power cars from that power scource. Then why would we do that to solve a non problem?

    Read this page and watch the video, Then without shooting or degrading the messenger, comment on the content and tell me if it is a good or bad thing or where it is wrong.
    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/a...est_will_play/
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  3. #153
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    Default The Burden wheel

    Aint seen this one, but it was a scotsman who created it. The most powerful waterwheel in history. First automatic horse shoe maker. This thing made one horseshoe per second during the American civil war for the Yanky side. It dont exist no more. Probably melted down ffor bean cans.

  4. #154
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    I had a read of the link but seriously I couldn't physically take anymore after the 20th hillbilly, right-wing, conspiracy-thriving, xenophobe mentioned "the end of days" and/or "New World Order".

    I don't think there's much point in me adding anymore, I've made my opinion clear enough and my perfectly valid comments on other posts are now getting referred back to this.

    I can see how people might have taken offence to my comment about "true blue aussies". That wasn't my intent. The reason it was in quotation marks is that I am tongue-in-cheek referring to the way that huge multinationals are using that particular excuse to argue why they can't be expected to cut emissions when really they are just doing wasteful things that they can't be bothered to try and iron out. And BTW, how much do they truly care about "True Blue Aussies" when they get an opportunity to shift offshore because of some tax loophole that allows them to pay their CEO an extra $10mil a year.

    I just think its an exciting opportunity to see some value of carbon pollution costed for once (and while carbon itself is not strictly pollution, the ways in which we process it definately do cause pollution, (and water consumption, and biodiversity destruction) and so this is in effect a proxy for pollution).

    Whether you think I'm some kind of commie nutjob is up to you but seriously, read the comments below that article you sent us to read and you think that represents a balanced outlook??? The CON here is that we are letting multinationals tell us that we shouldn't be modernising industry.

  5. #155
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    I really hope this hasn't ruined any chance I might get of assistance in laying those pavers

  6. #156
    Soldiers Earned Your Right To Free Speech watson's Avatar
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    There's reds under my bed.......!!
    A few Cab Savs.............the odd Merlot blend.....etc etc.

    The point is..........name calling of any sort is OUT!
    So keep to the point without destroying each others' reputations please.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattwilliams78 View Post
    I really hope this hasn't ruined any chance I might get of assistance in laying those pavers

    Shouldn't ........but we've just got to remember decorum rules.......that's why the thread has been allowed to continue.
    I can't state my opinions........I'm just the referee......so if we are nice boys....it continues.


  8. #158
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    You really think its ok for us to pay a third world country for the carbon we emit?
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  9. #159
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    Funnily enough Rod I agree with you there, its a nonsence. Its like dumping 2 tons of crud on some pacific Island because theres a few people living on it. To Matt na youve no probs, Rod will plaster your walls any time you want.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrobor View Post
    Rod will plaster your walls any time you want.
    Yes Rob you read me right on that score.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattwilliams78 View Post
    I really hope this hasn't ruined any chance I might get of assistance in laying those pavers
    Not at all. Just remember to scatter lumps of brick into the sand base
    I just love sheepies!

  12. #162
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    Now see what youve done dazzler you got this moved into the bad boy section. Oh you will all be pleased to know I got a new picture if you start a new page

  13. #163
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    Well, I was out by one page. that's not bad.

    Properly argued, any GW related thread is good for 25 pages. This one has been rather disappointing. I give it 4/10 "Could try harder"

    woodbe.

  14. #164
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    Dont understand Headpin, Whats the Dalia Lama sticking darts in his hand got to do with it.

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    The Lima agreement of the early 1970's set us up for the financial and environmental situation we now have as being a resource exporting country that increasinly manufactures basically nothing.

    We can't continue forever running up massive debts and hoping to pay our way through the printing press - we've already seen one finanical crisis as a result and it sure won't be the last. Noticed the price of gold, oil or the US Dollar lately? This situation just isn't sustainable.

    And of course if we didn't have to worry about globalisation, there wouldn't be a need to provide the cheapest possible energy to Australian industry (what's left of it) such that it can "compete". All this situation does is force everyone down to the lowest common denominator be it in wages, environment or just about anything else.

    Technically, cutting emissions isn't that hard. It's the economic system where tomorrow's growth is collateral for today's debt (read that again and think about it...) and where it is mathematically impossible to actually repay the world's debts that is the problem. We're absolutely locked into constant growth, something that can't end well on a finite planet. The moment growth is halted or even slowed, we get an immediate economic crisis - the system either grows or collapses, that's how it was designed to work. Hence why governments and economists are so fearful of zero or negative growth - the entire system depends on growth in order to survive.

    Fact? Or just Smurf on a rant? Do some serious research into fiat currency and how the debt-dependent economies work and you'll find that we're in a rather big mess if growth stops. Money created from thin air today, with tomorrow's growth paying the interest.

    20 years ago I was actively concerned about the CO2 issue. Now that I have some understanding as to how the economy works, I've reluctantly given up any hope of emissions actually being reduced anytime soon. The only thing that would change that view is a paradigm shift in the global economic system - something that will happen at some point (given that it is inherently unsustainable) but it's anyone's guess as to when. And of course when it does happen, CO2 emissions will be the last thing on most people's minds.

  16. #166
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    Good post smurf. There are a lot of storm clouds on the horizon.

    For the reasons you mention. emission reduction is impossible and fanciful. Yet, it may in fact force the paradigm shift you mention. There is a lot going on we don't know about. One thing is for certain, and that is, there is NO credible scientific link to CO2 controlling temperatures, so what else is going on?

    We have a lot of well meaning but gullible people who have bought this pup, as we have a lot of ???? people selling it. No one will properly debate it. The media will not publish evidence against it (which there is plenty of, PEER REVIEWED). Governments have committed themselves to it with no point of return.
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  17. #167
    Mr Sexy Beast dazzler's Avatar
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    So what happens to all the carbon we burn and put in the atmosphere?
    I just love sheepies!

  18. #168
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    Emission trading is simply another way for the rich to get richer.

    I think these guys may have a good idea though.

    Lutec Australia Pty Ltd - Welcome!

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod@plasterbrok View Post
    One thing is for certain, and that is, there is NO credible scientific link to CO2 controlling temperatures
    I take it that you didn't watch Myth Busters on Saturday night?

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod@plasterbrok View Post
    Co2 by the way is not pollution. I have no problem with reducing pollution (something we have done very well without an ETS).

    Do you really think Australia has done well to reduce pollution? I guess that depends on your definition of pollution.

    What about all the crap that goes into our rivers and oceans . Mining produces a lot of by-product that nobody knows what to do with and it sits there leaching into the water table. There must be thousands of obvious cases of pollution in Australia that we just ignore.

    I don't know about climate change. I don't really care one way or another if it exists or not. If it gets government, business and science looking at pollution in all it's forms that is a good thing in my book. Maybe in 20 years we could swim again in the Swan river without getting sick, maybe it won't stink in summer anymore and the fish will stop dyeing in their hundreds and we just might be able to catch and eat a few as well.

    As far as ETrading goes. Like the pro climate change scientists, I canít really predict the future so it is pointless getting all pessimistic about people losing their jobs and the economy collapsing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazzler View Post
    So what happens to all the carbon we burn and put in the atmosphere?
    It feeds the plants.

    World is greening up due to the extra CO2
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  22. #172
    rrobor
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    Default John Boyd Dunlop

    If any of you watched landline today you would have noted farmers in USA returning carbon to the soil as a no till method others were using cow muck to generate methane as energy sources for their farms. Given a chance people usually try to be responsible. For example Melbourne was asked to use less water and a target of 155 litres was requested. The good people of Melbourne have beaten that target. But anyways as its still going cos its a new page I give you John Boyd Dunlop. Scottish inventor of a wheel filled with hot air and wind and the creator of the word pneumatic.

  23. #173
    Mr Sexy Beast dazzler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod@plasterbrok View Post
    It feeds the plants.

    World is greening up due to the extra CO2
    I know, I have to carry a chainsaw just to get home of a night
    I just love sheepies!

  24. #174
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    Just imagine what the effect will be when the Wall Street investment bankers, those unrequited geniuses that caused the global financial crisis, get seriously involved in emissions trading?

    How will they make their next billion? Who wins? Who loses?


    Cheers

    Graeme

  25. #175
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    It will end up like labors petrol watch ( funny though petrol still goes up 10 to 20 cents per litre on pension thursday)
    Food watch ( funny though the big food chains have diffrent prices for the same goods in stores only 10 k apart)
    The refugee boat people problem ( How many have we got again this year so far compaired to the last year of liberal government)
    This new tax the ETS is un thought out , rushed into to apease minority groups , will do nothing to reduce greenhouse emmisions ( where and how will this money collected in this new tax be spent ) as is being hailed as the saviour of our planet , all this from a new tax on the australian people ,
    Your right in one respect rob this goes round and round , those who want change , any change as long as someone is doing something , regardless of the cost to anyone else, will never see the reasoning behind any other arguement wether its right or wrong , the 'we must act now' is like the chicken little story , do something now run in circles grab at any straw rather than look at the facts and what will result from your actions for the sky is falling , we have global warming ( even if it cant be proven we'll change the name to climate change ) , the sea is rising , well it will if this global warming continues ....er sorry climate change...we have the worst weather in 80 years it must be global warming ..er climate change that is
    Answer just one question where will the moneys collected by this new tax if introduced be spent and lets see something in writing from the government , cause I cant find anything other than vague retoric
    Ashore




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  26. #176
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    Its amasing how many red herrings can be drawn into this thread. Now theres an Idea for my next picture, Perhaps an Arbroath smokie or kipper. Seems its not about the subject but about Kev bashing. Anyways getting close to the next page so better get on the hunt. Bet you are all on tenter hooks.

  27. #177
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    So you equate all references to labor with Rudd , intrestering , thought it was a bigger party than that , didn't realize he controlled all the policies ,
    Funny enough I didn't mention him at all , freudian slip on your part rob or do you have more insight than the rest of us as to why labors policies are failing , and their promises not forthcoming
    Ashore




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  28. #178
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    No sir I aint silly enough to start politics here, Noel has a large stick for situations like that. I believe the government of the day is "The Rudd government" and thats as deep in as my toe will go.

  29. #179
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    Ashore, a retired marine engineer must have a few clues on sea level rises. I wanted to buy one of these cheap sea side houses real cheap.

    Hmm trouble is they are not cheap and not likely to be. Some one is obviously wised up!

    Think of the compensation claims when the dust settles on this LOL.
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  30. #180
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    Hopefully a new and urgent world disaster situation will come along before this current one is proved a fraud.

    Its called Recycling.

    Great for humanity, the planet, and the elite.

    :
    We used to be fast rough and expensive, but we've slowed down a lot lately

  31. #181
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    Blocklayer is correct in some respect. The governments of the world have agreed on this, not some dandy ideas the Rudd government dredged up. So why oh why do you try to localise the thing if it is not just playing politics.

  32. #182
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod@plasterbrok View Post
    I wanted to buy one of these cheap sea side houses real cheap.
    Hmm trouble is they are not cheap and not likely to be. Some one is obviously wised up!
    .
    No need for anyone to move as soon as the nex tax comes in Rudd will change his name to Canute
    Ashore




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  33. #183
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    Not all governments of the world have agreed on this, besides science should not be "agreed" apon by governments it should be demonstratable TRUE before any policy is made. The scientific community will be the laughing stock for many years after this.

    Just because a government or many governments agree on this it does not make it true. Mind you you are right many governments have "agreed". They all see a political advantage in agreement, their fall back is that they were just following what the scientist (read IPCC) were telling us. They choose to ignore any other scientist who dissagree, many of which have proven AGW is through Co2 is just not possible.

    It will take time but the truth always wins.
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  34. #184
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    Isnít it funny.

    The world economy unravels because the educated elite finally get caught out trading in fictional products ( do you understand all the available vapourware investment products ?)

    So what to do?

    Humanity needs these educated elites.
    The old vapourware products have been outed as fraud.
    So they need to find a new (fictional) product to trade in.

    What can they use?

    FEAR. Ė Tell the fools the climate is in ruins and the only way to fix it is taxes and a new trading system that doesnít really trade in anything (but fear)

    WAKE UP AUSTRALIA
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  35. #185
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    Default The round table

    Winchester castle. The great hall and King Arthurís 14th century round table. Arthur sat at the top. I had plans for smoked red herrings, perhaps next time

  36. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrobor View Post
    Blocklayer is correct in some respect. The governments of the world have agreed on this, not some dandy ideas the Rudd government dredged up. So why oh why do you try to localise the thing if it is not just playing politics.
    and as of this moment in time how many nations have an ETS the same as the one perposed by labor, once again you generalize "The governments of the world have agreed on this " what have the collective governments of the world ever agreed on , and what is this, are you implying that even a majority ( let alone all of the world governments) of world governments are going to bring in a new tax on their populations the same as the one preposed by the australian labor party
    Robb you debate like a monty python skit
    But these are the facts
    No their not
    There is no global warming
    Yes there is , they all agree there is
    Who
    Everyone
    But who exactialy
    Everyone , ....Sorry but it will be another ETS payment to continue arguing
    Ashore




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  37. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod@plasterbrok View Post
    Just because a government or many governments agree on this it does not make it true. . They choose to ignore any other scientist who dissagree, many of which have proven AGW through Co2 is just not possible.

    It will take time but the truth always wins.
    Its not about the oil or money, there are weapons of mass destruction there
    Bad analogy I know but the basic point is the same
    Ashore




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  38. #188
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    Rudd went to an election with climate change as a cornerstone and won. Obama did the same. Now in this marvelous country we have elections. We also have soap boxes. May I suggest if you all want to get on a soap box and bleat, do it for an election.
    If you feel strongly about it get on your soap box in the square and recrute. But please the renovative forum is not a soap box area. Politics and religion are not for here.

  39. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrobor View Post
    Rudd went to an election with climate change as a cornerstone and won. Obama did the same. .
    No they didn't
    Ashore




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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashore View Post
    No they didn't
    Please elaborate. That was certainly my reading of both campaigns.

    Item on the news the other day. They are talking about freezing samples of the worlds coral reefs to create a diversity 'bank' because the reefs are probably unsaveable due to climate change.

    ABC AM Transcript

    Discuss.

    woodbe.

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    Woodbe the sun will die before coral reefs. Coral reefs are under NO threat from climate change. Even if water warms corals adapt. They are more likely to die from cooler climate than warm.

    Coral survied the medievil warm period and it will survive again. Hell it even survived the ice age... go figure?

    This is just another furphy scare to adjust your mind to accept AGW.

    Professor Clive Hamilton “Personally I cannot see any alternative to ramping up the fear factor.”

    What does that tell you. Fear factor is all they have no conclusive evidence, dispite spending billions of dollars to find it. We have models that assume the level of Co2 effect will be linier rather than logerithmic, (which is a proven fact). We have thousands of "fear factor" assumptions of the effect of climate change based on the faulty modles. You have governments that have dug themselves in so deep to appeal to the masses that they pray AGW is real while forging ahead as if it is.

    The fear factor is all AGW is built on and this absolutly disgusts me to the core.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Please elaborate. That was certainly my reading of both campaigns.
    .
    Obama's main thrust was always edcuation first , and health second, followed by the economy , and in his economy sector was the need to remove americas reliance on foriegn oil and create '5 million green jobs that cant be moved overseas.'
    Rudd's main thrust was at workplace relations laws
    I would understand that this was not your reading of both campains for in the words of the imortal simon and garfunkle song The Boxer "for a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest "
    Ashore




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  43. #193
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    Rod I could give you a guarentee that you pay health insurance, work insurance and other things. Now you Rod have no intention of falling off a ladder and breaking a leg, but you have had the good sense not to leave you and yours in a hole if that happens. World governments can not take the risk. There are just too many pointers that state the worlds climate is more violent. Governments who get the mood of the people wrong loose power. The USA was always a race between Hillary and Obama, the rest was a side show. In Australia few expected Howard to win, but to be only the second to loose it all, we didnt expect that. So scream as much as you like, world opinion is not with you or yours.

  44. #194
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    Rob the insurance argument is just a plain furphy that doesn't wash in any way. I dont insure my boat because I dont own one.

    World opinion is with the AGW alarmists simply because they are led by the fear factor. It takes balls for a government to stand up to what is right rather than go with what propaganderist have fed the people. This is how the nazis got into power in germany. Hitler kept feeding propaganda and scaring people over the threat of communism and jewish takeover, (among other things), untill they believed it.

    We have been fed fear tactics over AGW for years now that the average Joe simply believes it whithout question. People are sheep. All this propaganda does not make it true. Quite the reverse.

    Why won't Gore or Hanson debate AGW with other scientist that refute AGW. Their claim the debate is over is false. If they were sure of there ground they would welcome debate to drive thier point home.

    The IPCC relied on temperature reconstruction from the UK for years 1850 to present. When other scientists requested the raw data they refused. When the pressure to release the data became too intense they claimed the data was destroyed. So no one is able to review and recontruct their work.

    AGW is so full of holes it cannot and will not last. The MSM is starting to question AGW slowly and scientists are starting to change sides to protect their intergity. Those that are retiring and no longer threatened by comming out are doing so.

    Governments protect themselves by claiming they are following the IPCC so they can lay the blame on their actions on the IPCC when it fails. This is the easy way out for them while pandering to the fear effected population.

    The whole process is disgusting to watch unfold.
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  45. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashore View Post
    Rudd's main thrust was at workplace relations laws
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Environment

    In opposition, Rudd called climate change "the greatest moral, economic and social challenge of our time" and called for a cut to greenhouse gas emissions by 60% before 2050.[52] On 3 December 2007, as his first official act after being sworn in, Rudd signed the Kyoto Protocol.[53] On 15 December 2008, Rudd released a White Paper on reducing Australia's greenhouse gas emissions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashore View Post
    I would understand that this was not your reading of both campains for in the words of the imortal simon and garfunkle song The Boxer "for a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest "
    Pot, Kettle Black.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfwiVR7VlWg"]Kevin07 Youtube[/ame]

    Workplace was indeed a big part of the campaign, along with Hospitals, education and the economy. You could say that Howard's policies on Climate Change and Workplace Relations were effectively his party's resignation letters.

    So Climate Change was a cornerstone of the Kevin07 campaign, as well as Obama's Campaign. No politician comes into power on a single policy however as the electorate is looking at a variety of issues that may or may not be a concern to them.

    woodbe.

  46. #196
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    This is long, but at least give it a listen

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stij8sUybx0"]YouTube - Lord Christopher Monckton Speaking in St. Paul[/ame]
    We used to be fast rough and expensive, but we've slowed down a lot lately

  47. #197
    rrobor
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    Blocklayer, I honestly dont know if this guy is for me or against me. But honestly we all have been through this now for several years. If you have no opinion as to climate change now. Then where have you been. This issue has turned into rioght wing politics versus left wing politics. As such, the average person seems compelled to side to one idiot fringe or the other. Personally I will show the rude finger to both. A majority view is good enough for me.

  48. #198
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrobor View Post
    . A majority view is good enough for me.
    good cause everybody agrees with me , well all the governments of the world anyway
    Ashore




    The trouble with life is there's no background music.

  49. #199
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbe View Post
    Pot, Kettle Black.
    .
    No way, just using a great analogy to point out the truth
    Ashore




    The trouble with life is there's no background music.

  50. #200
    rrobor
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    Ashore, did you really read what I wrote. I stated that everybody had formed an opinion. Like yours, however much you push your view, you will not change any other opinion. Your view is right wing,, and you push that. My view for what its worth is leave a government in for max 3 terms then chuck em out. Rudd at the moment is working like a beaver, lets go with that. Howard was stale.

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