Corona virus

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  1. #2251
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    The advice for infection control using a mask is to discard and replace the mask every four hours and don't touch it, or if you do touch it discard and replace it immediately.
    I fail to see how that allays my fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    I fail to see how that allays m iy fear.
    I'm sure it doesn't. Nor my fear that the magical properties of mask wearing are unlikely to be fully realised in practice in the real world when the fitment of most masks don't seem to exclude air bypassing the mask.

    I have masks that incorporate an 'exhaust' valve to reduce the condensation problem, but I worry that one purpose of a mask, which is to stop the spread of aerosols from an infected person, will be subverted by the valve bypassing the mask's filter material during expiration.
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  3. #2253
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    I guess if everyone wears a mask then there won't be any airborne virus, maybe I have nothing to fear if that is the case.

  4. #2254
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Yes John, I was ridiculed in many occasions for saying that we should use masks in public especially public transport ... but hey, who cares.

    As for the comments above, the mask is reasonably effective in catching the Flugge droplets from the mask wearer and the coughing fit happening further down the aisle.
    The virus fortunately does not wander on his little self.
    You are right in saying that the mask with a valve is the wrong choice to protect others from an infected person. Those mask are for protecting the wearer from environmental contaminant, so it is only 'one way'.

    Disposing of your own mask is as simple as folding it with the inside out and chucking it in the bin. Doing this wearing gloves is mandatory for health care workers, but for common mortals, fold it inside out, chuck it and wash your hands with soap and water.
    Hands sanitiser is highly effective in killing the sars 2 virus on contact by destroying the virus lipoprotein envelope if it contains ethanol at 80% or 75% Isopropanol.
    For non-envelop virus, alcohol is less effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Yes John, I was ridiculed in many occasions...
    ... not from me, nor do I recall anyone in this forum ...
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  6. #2256
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    ...and secondly it is clear that the predominant mechanism for the spread Covid-19 virus is aerosols - not contact, which hasn't rated in any investigation of Covid-19 spread AFAIK.
    Aerosols land on surfaces.
    We touch surfaces.
    We touch our faces.

    Pretty simple how washing hands and using hand sanitizer can help stop the spread.

  7. #2257
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    Aerosols land on surfaces.
    We touch surfaces.
    We touch our faces.

    Pretty simple how washing hands and using hand sanitizer can help stop the spread.
    Every investigation of hand sanitisers I have read as actually used by ordinary people in ordinary situations shows that hand sanitisers are not particularly effective at killing viruses or bacteria. Soap is routinely shown to be more effective, but only if hands are washed for at least 20 seconds which is about five times longer than most people do. For example, here is the current advice from the US Center for Disease Control:

    A. There are no antiseptic drug products, including hand sanitizer, that are approved by FDA to prevent or treat COVID-19. The best way to prevent the spread of infections and decrease the risk of getting sick is by washing your hands with plain soap and water, advises the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Washing hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds is essential, especially after going to the bathroom; before eating; and after coughing, sneezing, or blowing one’s nose. If soap and water are not available, CDC recommends consumers use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% ethanol.

    While they are not alcohol-based, and thus not recommended by CDC, there are some hand sanitizer products containing benzalkonium chloride as an active ingredient that may be legally marketed if they meet the requirements for marketing under section 505G of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. However, as noted above, there are no hand sanitizers, including those containing benzalkonium chloride, that are legally marketed specifically for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19. Hand sanitizers using active ingredients other than alcohol (ethanol), isopropyl alcohol, or benzalkonium chloride are not legally marketed, and FDA recommends that consumers avoid their use.
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    Personally I don't care if alcohol based sanitisers don't work well on this particular virus and I'd like to see their continued use in supermarkets and public transport as they are quite good/reasonably effective on faecal bacteria and for some reason there are still people out there whos personal hygiene in this area leaves much to be desired.
    In the same vein I'd like to see more UV sanitisers incorporated into the HVAC systems in public spaces, especially those where food service takes place.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  9. #2259
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    John ... that article is deceptive. Hand sanitisers are not for treatment but prevention. The sars2 virus is particularly susceptible to the loss of its envelop. This is old news and beyond debate and the property of alcohol was known hundreds of years ago.

    There are a number of opportunistic products marketed at outrageous prices that are ineffective due to wrong chemicals, low concentrations or both. That does not mean that real hand sanitisers is ineffective.

    Particularly irritating in that article, is the proposal to use benzalkonium chloride. A lot of international effort was done in the last 10 years battling big pharma, to replace BZK due to its toxicity to cilia and mucus in the respiratory tract and other adverse effects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzalkonium_chloride

    At the required concentrations — between 60 and 90 percent — alcohol can kill a broad range of germs, including bacteria, viruses, and fungi.For example, alcohol can eliminate common bacteria, such as E. coli, salmonella, and Staphylococcus aureus. Other bacteria, such as Enterococcus faecalis, are becoming more resistant to the effects of alcohol-based disinfectants.
    Alcohol has also been shown to kill viruses such as tuberculosis, herpes, hepatitis B, HIV, influenza, rhinoviruses, and coronaviruses, among others.
    A 2020 study indicates that alcohol effectively destroys SARS-CoV-2.
    In contrast, alcohol is not effective against destroying the viruses that cause hepatitis A or polio.
    Finally, alcohol is also effective at destroying fungi, such as Blastomyces dermatitidis and Coccinidiodes immitis, that can cause fungal diseases.
    Don't get any ideas. Drinking alcohol does not treat Covid, unfortunately, or we wouldn't have a pandemic.

    The problem with the current trend is that the public gets medical information second hand from politicians and journalist that bastardise, distort or suppress, according to their personal agenda.
    Never in the history of humankind was an illness exploited more effectively for alternative interest. WHen I see politicians on TV waving their arms around with grand gestures and big words I have to reach for the bucket.
    By the way, new information came to light about the virus being released from a chinese lab.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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  10. #2260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The problem with the current trend is that the public gets medical information second hand from politicians and journalist that bastardise, distort or suppress, according to their personal agenda.
    however
    By the way, new information came to light about the virus being released from a chinese lab.
    link!


    .......or was all that meant to be tongue in cheek

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    however


    link!


    .......or was all that meant to be tongue in cheek
    "Matthew Pottinger, a deputy national security adviser, claimed in a Zoom call to politicians around the world that there was “a growing body of evidence that the lab is likely the most credible source of the virus”.Mr Pottinger, a former US Marines officer, said: “Even establishment figures in Beijing have openly dismissed the wet market story.” He said that the pathogen may have escaped through a “leak or an accident”.
    thats from the OZ - search pottinger and there is heaps of mainstream news articles on this.

    I'm waiting for the new administration to look into this - I cant trust anyone unfortunately who has a job by virtue of Donald Trump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    I'm sure it doesn't. Nor my fear that the magical properties of mask wearing are unlikely to be fully realised in practice in the real world when the fitment of most masks don't seem to exclude air bypassing the mask.

    I have masks that incorporate an 'exhaust' valve to reduce the condensation problem, but I worry that one purpose of a mask, which is to stop the spread of aerosols from an infected person, will be subverted by the valve bypassing the mask's filter material during expiration.
    The main effect of masks is to prevent spread from the person wearing the mask - the exhaust valve versions are extremely anti social as a result - ie you gain possibly 20% reduction of risk yourself, but everyone else gains nothing. exhaust valves for building work, not for covid work

  13. #2263
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Every investigation of hand sanitisers I have read as actually used by ordinary people in ordinary situations shows that hand sanitisers are not particularly effective at killing viruses or bacteria. Soap is routinely shown to be more effective, but only if hands are washed for at least 20 seconds which is about five times longer than most people do. For example, here is the current advice from the US Center for Disease Control:

    A. There are no antiseptic drug products, including hand sanitizer, that are approved by FDA to prevent or treat COVID-19. The best way to prevent the spread of infections and decrease the risk of getting sick is by washing your hands with plain soap and water, advises the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Washing hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds is essential, especially after going to the bathroom; before eating; and after coughing, sneezing, or blowing one’s nose. If soap and water are not available, CDC recommends consumers use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% ethanol.

    While they are not alcohol-based, and thus not recommended by CDC, there are some hand sanitizer products containing benzalkonium chloride as an active ingredient that may be legally marketed if they meet the requirements for marketing under section 505G of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. However, as noted above, there are no hand sanitizers, including those containing benzalkonium chloride, that are legally marketed specifically for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19. Hand sanitizers using active ingredients other than alcohol (ethanol), isopropyl alcohol, or benzalkonium chloride are not legally marketed, and FDA recommends that consumers avoid their use.
    Thanks for confirming my statement with evidence

  14. #2264
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    Queensland is having a 3 day lockdown, as they have one person infected via Hotel Quarantine, now everyone there has jammed the roads out of Brisbane, and panic buying at Coles and Woolies.

    WA has shut the border, how stupid, they are making out like there has been an outbreak of 10,000 cases,

    Just goes to show QLD and WA, when they complain about NSW and Vic causing issues and not able to control Quarantine outbreaks, how easily it can happen.


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    It's not funny Metrix, they both have cases of the highly infectious British mutation. If it gets into the community we will find it much tougher to eradicate

  16. #2266
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    It's not funny Metrix, they both have cases of the highly infectious British mutation. If it gets into the community we will find it much tougher to eradicate
    I'm referring to how they lined up for hours to panic buy food, the lockdown is for 3 days not 3 months, the shops will continue to be open all weekend, it's nonsense to panic buy, what is that going to achieve.
    It didn't achieve anything except show how selfish some people are on previous occasions, in Australia or other countries.

    NSW and Vic have been dealing with outbreaks for 12 months, Australia will just have to deal with random outbreaks for years they say, it will become just like a flu.
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  17. #2267
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    A lockdown is a lockdown not a message for everyone to leave.

    As for panic buying, well we have seen that before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    I'm referring to how they lined up for hours to panic buy food, the lockdown is for 3 days not 3 months, the shops will continue to be open all weekend, it's nonsense to panic buy, what is that going to achieve.
    It didn't achieve anything except show how selfish some people are on previous occasions, in Australia or other countries.

    NSW and Vic have been dealing with outbreaks for 12 months, Australia will just have to deal with random outbreaks for years they say, it will become just like a flu.
    people are idiots. most people do a weekly shop that will last them , well, a week. How much crap do you need to survive 3 days. Plus its not like the shops wont be open. everything is still open. How much food will go to waste after a week or two because these morons couldnt eat it all. also what the hell is it with buying toilet paper again.

  19. #2269
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    I wonder what idiot politician will come up with when the alleged "need" for lockdown disappears? War?
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    It is human nature to want to prepare.

    In Victoria, as we went to a much more stringent lockdown, I bought extra supplies of tinned beans, oats, tea bags and dried lentils etc. (Not trolley loads, but definitely a bit more than usual).

    Why?

    Because I knew that if the virus got out of control, the safest thing would be to be able to stay away from the shops. And if I got sick and had to isolate, I would need to be self sufficient as I live alone and we weren’t allowed visitors.

    In Victoria, it was impossible to get groceries delivered from Coles etc for a very long time as they, rightly, prioritised vulnerable people.

    I agree, that it isn’t necessary to stock up for 3 days lockdown, but it is an ancient survival response ...

    I was astounded by the amount of alcohol that was purchased at the beginning of the Vic lockdown though - I guess you purchase your fears . It turned out that my priority was teabags and porridge!

  21. #2271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    A lockdown is a lockdown not a message for everyone to leave.

    As for panic buying, well we have seen that before.
    I agree, this scare mongering by the Gov't / media makes people panic, what's the point of implementing a lockdown then allow thousands to leave in a desperate opportunity to "escape" the lockdown.
    All that's going to do is potentially spread the problem to other areas such as Gold Coast etc if any of them have it and haven't been tested yet.

    I think all this panic message from the gov't has done is potentially make matters worse for themselves.
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  22. #2272
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    Look at the type of mask this policeman is wearing (spotted on the ABC news online this morning). Not the type of mask designed to protect the public (but he’ll be OK!)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 206f2b72-fd18-4aaf-ac1a-0aae75458a76.jpg  

  23. #2273
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    Quote Originally Posted by sol381 View Post
    people are idiots. most people do a weekly shop that will last them , well, a week. How much crap do you need to survive 3 days. Plus its not like the shops wont be open. everything is still open. How much food will go to waste after a week or two because these morons couldnt eat it all. also what the hell is it with buying toilet paper again.
    Exactly, they will go in a buy up big for what, surely they have enough food and toilet paper to last them one day, because the supermarkets are staying open while the lockdown is in operation so they don't need to stock up.
    If the scare mongering by the local gov't has made them so paranoid that they don't want to leave their front door for fear of dying over the next 3 days, that's quite sad.

    I understand the gov't introducing the lockdown, that's fine, and probably a good thing but at what cost, I feel the local communities in QLD and WA have become so paranoid and isolated from the rest of Australia because the media / govt have put the fear of God into them that if you venture out your surely going to get sick and die.

    In NSW things haven't really changed since the initial lockdown earlier in 2020, they showed that it could be controlled and eradicated without affecting to many peoples way of life, we were still allowed to go out, shop, visit friends, and basically do whatever we did before just with some restrictions in place, most importantly we got rid of it using common sense, and it was done without mandatory mask rules.

    Then after it was eradicated in NSW, it was brought back to us from the crossroads interstate outbreak.

    Yes we had other intermittent outbreaks, where from ? the lack of control from the gov't controlled quarantine facilitates, NSW has had 4 breaches, which has caused most of the issues we had here.

    The quarantine is where this thing is going to keep haunting us forever unless we get that sorted.

    There is talk about if you have had the vaccine that you can come here quarantine free, I don't agree with this at the moment, the vaccines have only shown to be 80 - 90% effective that leaves a portion of people it won't work on.
    So they could get infected with one of the rogue strains after they have had their vaccine, then walk through the front door here re infecting us again.

    We really need some time to see how effective this vaccine is, nobody knows yet, and nobody knows much about these vaccines as they are a new "type" of vaccine for the major ones, this is the first time one of these "new technology" vaccines has been used.
    The Chinese / Russian vaccines I believe are based on the older tried and proven technology.
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  24. #2274
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    If the scare mongering by the local gov't has made them so paranoid that they don't want to leave their front door for fear of dying over the next 3 days, that's quite sad.
    That would depend on your age as the older you are the more concerned you become as you realises you are not bullet proof anymore.
    One thing I have noticed in Queensland from early Dec is the reporting of virus fragments in sewerage in Cairns, Townsville, Airlie beach, Bundaberg, Hervey Bay, Maryborough and Gold Coast.

    None of these area's have produced people with the virus. Now I can't get on Marc's conspiracy bus as it is full but I begin to wonder is it is scaring people or the testing is picking up false readings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    Not knowing in depth about the US health system only to the extent it is expensive and not free like here I have been wondering who is picking up the tab for those hospitised without health insurance.
    I was talking to my friends in the US over Christmas and asked them this question and they told me the hospitals just absorb the costs and if they can get reimbursement from welfare all the better but seems like no one is left on the streets to die.

  26. #2276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    That would depend on your age as the older you are the more concerned you become as you realises you are not bullet proof anymore.
    One thing I have noticed in Queensland from early Dec is the reporting of virus fragments in sewerage in Cairns, Townsville, Airlie beach, Bundaberg, Hervey Bay, Maryborough and Gold Coast.

    None of these area's have produced people with the virus. Now I can't get on Marc's conspiracy bus as it is full but I begin to wonder is it is scaring people or the testing is picking up false readings.
    True, I understand if you are older there is a cause to be concerned about getting this virus, I have had it and don't wish it upon anyone as I got a semi bad case of it with pneumonia and ended up with a short hospital visit.
    Yes I have heard about all the sewer traces, in Sydney as well, but as you say nothing eventuated from them.

    I think it's all part of the "scare" tactics to make people not become compliant.

    Marc needs to get a new bus, we have the double decker and bendy ones in Sydney, maybe he needs to get one of these, then there will be a seat for you Bros
    I would take the Double Decker one and get a front seat the view is much nicer

    dd-buses-web_opt.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    I was talking to my friends in the US over Christmas and asked them this question and they told me the hospitals just absorb the costs and if they can get reimbursement from welfare all the better but seems like no one is left on the streets to die.
    They will also sue for anything you have left, leaving you bankrupt. Homeless and destitute would be slim pickings, but for the those will small savings, possibly a home they are left with nothing in many cases.

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    The latest Lamb add, is their best one so far

    https://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...561d4ba279a56e
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  29. #2279
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    No doubt it will somehow offend someone

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    No doubt it will somehow offend someone
    Yes, I'm sure it's bound to offend someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Yes, I'm sure it's bound to offend someone.
    You had better get in for your chop then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    You had better get in for your chop then.

    There is so many digs in there, you need to watch it multiple times to see them all, like the newspaper articles outside the shop he walks out of.
    The Sydney people in their clean designer clothes with takeaway coffee, the Queensland Advert, the four Tasmanians
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  33. #2283
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    It should be banned. It offends the sheep.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    That wall looks like it was made from concrete left over from Sydney apartment towers.
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  35. #2285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post

    Now I can't get on Marc's conspiracy bus as it is full but I begin to wonder is it is scaring people or the testing is picking up false readings.
    Bros, as I mentioned take the new Double Decker Marc bus, the bendy one have a tendency to catch fire

    1.jpg
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  36. #2286
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    Too many inflammatory remarks made on the conspiracy bus?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Too many inflammatory remarks made on the conspiracy bus?
    And someone lit a match.

  38. #2288
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    No need for matches if something is inflammatory, that is what inflammatory means.
    If something is flammable then yes, one needs a flame of sort.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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  39. #2289
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    Another hope to stop the virus. Allegedly stopped the spanish flu.
    https://www.dw.com/en/germany-scient...rus/a-53944514

    Of course the morons at whatstheorganisation rush to warn against any claims before it is even off the ground. What pathetic losers.
    The only hope to stop the pandemic is not on a vaccine but on a cure. Vaccine will be 50/50 at best and changing all the time. A cure if found will be cheap and effective every time.
    May be that is the problem.
    Fear is the foundation of most government.
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    Now that all the "free speech" posts have been moved we can get down to the corona virus.

    I was listening to the news at lunch time and we are ordering three different vaccines so I wonder how they will be distributed, will the Doctors surgery have a list of the vaccine they are dispensing and can we choose what we want and where we go to get it?

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    I did see a price list somewhere, the Oxford one is cheapest (around $3) the Pfizer and Moderna are over $30. As the govt is giving it free which do you think you will get? I don't think those costs include distribution costs which for the Pfizer have to be much higher given it's temp requirements. The Oxford one is being made here. I think we will be lucky to get a choice, maybe us city folks might but remote areas, not likely.

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    People could refuse the Oxford one and force the govt's hand to use one proven to work >90%. Of course ways will be found to force us all to use the rubbish one with no option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    People could refuse the Oxford one and force the govt's hand to use one proven to work >90%. Of course ways will be found to force us all to use the rubbish one with no option.
    Which one did QEII get recently? That's good enough for me.

    No evidence, but I heard that apparently 'risky' new vaccines are first given to less fortunate community members. Given the COVID-19 ones are being given to VIPs globally, I think we'll all be ok with it... Or there will be some important job ads coming soon

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    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-...kelly/13053760


    The plan for Australia is to have vulnerable populations vaccinated with the 10 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine the Government has been able to secure and use the AstraZeneca vaccine to reach everyone else.
    Be interested to see how that works as there are vulnerable people all over the country.

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    More grist for the mill for the anti vaxers.

    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/program...orway/13065342

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    On the radio today some Australian medical experts were talking about the various vaccines and the differences. It seems the vaccines do not prevent someone getting Covid-19, they stop someone from getting ill. It's too early to say what impact this will have on herd immunity as world vaccine studies are barely more than gestational at this time. However it's hard to see how vaccines that don't prevent people from carrying the Covid-19 virus will be effective in reducing community transmission.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    On the radio today some Australian medical experts were talking about the various vaccines and the differences. It seems the vaccines do not prevent someone getting Covid-19, they stop someone from getting ill. It's too early to say what impact this will have on herd immunity as world vaccine studies are barely more than gestational at this time. However it's hard to see how vaccines that don't prevent people from carrying the Covid-19 virus will be effective in reducing community transmission.
    I think the latest research indicates it will stop transmission of the virus; I'll try and find a link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    However it's hard to see how vaccines that don't prevent people from carrying the Covid-19 virus will be effective in reducing community transmission.
    The last bit I saw on that is at this stage they don't know.
    I believe these vaccines will be getting modified all the time like I keep referring back to the polio vaccine and the flu vaccine to name a couple. I think the need for a vaccine is urgent and yes there is the possibility of the vaccinated person spreading the virus could be one of the downsides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    It seems the vaccines do not prevent someone getting Covid-19, they stop someone from getting ill.
    Is it that some viruses can hide in the human body where the immune system cannot access such as the central nervous system, eye, brain and testes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Is it that some viruses can hide in the human body where the immune system cannot access such as the central nervous system, eye, brain and testes!
    I think it is because these Covid-19 vaccines are unlike previous vaccines, which are generally some kind live attenuated and/or inactivated pathogen or subunit agent that stimulates a long-lived immune response to the target pathogen providing lasting protection against the disease it causes. In the past, vaccine trials have typically extended over 10-15 years before a vaccine is licensed for widespread immunisation programs.

    The Covid-19 vaccines are a new type of gene-edited mRNA agent embedded in a carrier molecule or nanoparticle, and these agents are broken down by normal cellular processes in the body. mRNA vaccines have been in development for the last few decades, and are considered likely to be a relatively safe vaccine format because they are not made with live virus, viral vectors, inactivated virus and/or protein vaccines.

    However since the technology has not been used on human subjects before (nor are there many animal studies), the response to mRNA vaccine components and inflammatory signals is not known in humans. That experiment is being conducted after the fact of a global vaccine rollout, as is the assessment of efficacy of the Covid-19 vaccines against community transmission, and the identification of an unknown number of unknown adverse consequences.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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