Electric cars

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  1. #1551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    Funny I thought you were in favour of "Robber Barons" Marc
    Nee ... if you think that, you are mistaken.
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    Ford counters Tesla Cybertruck with tradie-ready F-150 electric ute

    https://thedriven.io/2021/05/20/ford...ctric-ute/amp/

  3. #1553
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    The guvmint subsidies for utes and vans introduced in 2020 by Friedenburg have seen that part of the market exceed national passenger car sales for the first time ever this year.

    Which utes and vans are eligible for the full $150,000 Instant ...https://www.carexpert.com.au › Car News
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  4. #1554
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    Was inadvertently watching ABC yesterday, when I saw the above article used to "prove" that the gov "subsidies" are for conventional vehicles and "against" electric one.
    A snippet was inserted with someone stating that the government will not subsidise luxury vehicles and then the triumphant comment by the bent ABC talking head, that the gov has no problem subsidising conventional vehicles yet not electric one. How can anyone take the ABC seriously is beyond me.

    The idiocy of linking this tax concessions for work vehicles that have some work purpose, to a mythical anti-electric and anti-environment malice, is flabbergasting. If there was one electric car that a builder can buy for work and that falls in that category, it would qualify for tax concession. There is no mention of fuel to qualify. The reality is that electric utes in any remotely decent price bracket and the ability to tow and carry a ton, don't exist yet. Better luck next time.
    As a side note, I wonder if the insignificant difference in the loading capacity can be made up with stiffer suspension?
    Anyway, glad both my choices for a new vehicle, Landcruiser and Ranger are listed. Will be able to burn diesel at my heart content for a couple of decades more

    PS
    The electric Ford 150 https://thedriven.io/2021/05/20/ford...ctric-ute/amp/ "extended range", 480 km is actually barely adequate when you consider that load and towing will reduce this theoretical to may be 300Km ... is 90k US in LHD. Meaning that in Australia this translate to 150k to 200k in LHD and probably $250k or more if left to right conversion prices can be compared to a conventional vehicle.

    We will need to wait for Toyota to do a move so that at least we can benefit with the Japanese RHD version. Pity that the UK does not make cars anymore. Too busy listening to Charles and Boris talking about sustainability and inclusiveness.

    This comment by the obscure author takes the cake:
    If it were made in Australia it would be a clear dig at the misinformation perpetrated by the Morrison government, in particular Michaelia Cash’s comments in 2019 that being forced to buy electric vehicles would leave tradespeople without suitable transport.

    "If it were made in Australia" ... what a joke. If my grandfather had wheels and a trolley he would be a tram.
    A push to make electric vehicles compulsory today would have the exact same effect Michaelia Cash commented 2 years ago. No difference/

    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid" Benjamin Franklin


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  5. #1555
    The Master's Apprentice Bedford's Avatar
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    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

  6. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    We will need to wait for Toyota to do a move so that at least we can benefit with the Japanese RHD version. Pity that the UK does not make cars anymore. Too busy listening to Charles and Boris talking about sustainability and inclusiveness.
    https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/manufacturing/
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  7. #1557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedford View Post
    I like the usual fake thumbnail, they make out the machine is 500m high, it's actually only 5.9m high
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  8. #1558
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    Here are some interesting articles for Australia's part (if we do it right) for the multi $billion industry just over the horizon.

    https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/n...ry-industries/

    This article looks at the difference in sending the raw material to be converted, vs producing the end product, the difference in $ is staggering.
    And is why I have always said we still need to send stuff overseas but we also need to start producing end product from the raw resources we have here as that's where the money is.

    https://www.manmonthly.com.au/featur...smart-country/
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  9. #1559
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Selling raw material without any added value is subsistence strategy for african or south american countries. The dismantling of manufacture so happily embraced by Bob Hawke and followed by the morons after him is a disgrace.

    Now that China is a real danger, we can not even make a chip that is not from potato. In fact, we even import frozen chips from Canada.
    Our elected representatives deserve being strung up from their minuscule testicles
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  10. #1560
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  11. #1561
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    It will take decades to get back to the level of manufacturing we had 50 years ago if we ever get back to that. I remember in the eighties I imported a container of merchandise and wasn't charged any duties. "Your first container is free" was the explanation given.
    Treason is the only concept that comes to mind.
    We are now in a situation where we can not produce the most basic goods and the idea of self sufficiency is a joke.
    Oh but we are really grand in debating de-colonisation and the renaming with aboriginal names that mean zilch to 99.99% of real and present people.
    May be we can learn to make spears to repeal a chinese attack?
    Science is never settled,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    May be we can learn to make spears to repeal a chinese attack?
    Might be better at that than submarines, even have a bit of expertise already.
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    ....Its interesting what $ you can import a grey Nissan Leaf for .....still out of my price range but I dare say it will get there in the next few years.

    For those that like to see car restorations conversions of classic cars to electric, some really interesting projects and great results. ...would need some deep pockets for a few of these but interesting regardless.

    This one is just insane - 450hp Tesla powered 1969 VW Crew Cab - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKNVgdRtzKs

    VW Beetle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZELO3SAzwcY

  14. #1564
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    Sorry, the video indexing has gone bad again.
    Why JCB thinks hydrogen is the best alternative to diesel for heavy machinery, farming and HGV fleet

    Go Hydrogen,
    screw the electric crapparola

    The internal combustion engine is not the problem, it is the fuel that is the problem. Change the fuel, and use existing engines.
    Tesla go jump ...




    https://youtu.be/wDKLoLUQgH0
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  15. #1565
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    Some electric cars have fake internal combustion engine sounds, now there is a fake petrol smell.

    A Ford-commissioned survey claims one in five drivers said the smell of petrol is what they’d miss most when swapping to an electric vehicle, “with almost 70 per cent claiming they would miss the smell of petrol to some degree”.

    “Petrol also ranked as a more popular scent than both wine and cheese, and almost identically to the smell of new books” among car enthusiasts, said Ford. "Judging by our survey findings, the sensory appeal of petrol cars is still something drivers are reluctant to give up,” said a Ford of Europe spokesperson. “The Mach-Eau fragrance is designed to give them a hint of that fuel-fragrance they still crave.”

    Ford revealed the fragrance at last weekend’s Goodwood Festival of Speed in the UK.

    Ford creates petrol fume fragrance for electric Mustang Mach-E: https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-c...medium=partner
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  16. #1566
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    The extent to which some will go to shift blame to the consumer for industry problems is flabbergasting.
    Gaslighting at its best.
    Science is never settled,
    it advances one funeral at the time.
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  17. #1567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The internal combustion engine is not the problem, it is the fuel that is the problem.
    What is the problem with the fuel?
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  18. #1568
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    The objections to diesel engines are misdirected. It is not the engine, it is the fuel that is to blame.
    With H2 no CO2 from Hydrogen combustion, so that should appease all the scaremongering global warming alarmist, just water. Some NO and NO2 that can be minimized with old school catalytic convertors, no particulate emissions, way cheaper technology than hydrogen cells or battery/electric.
    Sure the requirements for high pressure and distribution have to be developed, no different from natural gas pumping stations. Will we witness another technology suppression by the morons in charge to favour a more expensive and damaging product? Let's wait and see.
    I like the idea of internal combustion driven by water.
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  19. #1569
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    We have known for decades that even old fuel guzzling bangers can run just fine on Hydrogen, we just need to accept and pay for the transition to a new technology.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    I like the idea of internal combustion driven by water.
    Where does the energy to produce this hydrogen for the revolution in ICE vehicles come from? The mechanics of creating, storing and using hydrogen for ICE engines means that around 2½ times as much energy is required per kilometre compared to the energy used by BEVs from the same energy source.

    Range is an issue with hydrogen fuel requiring about three times the volume of petrol even when stored cryogenically at minus 253 degrees; so far the energy storage in batteries for BEVs is quite inexpensive by comparison to hydrogen storage, and the cost disparity is worsening rapidly as battery technology becomes cheaper.


    We have known for decades that even old fuel guzzling bangers can run just fine on Hydrogen
    It's been known for decades that compression ignition engines cannot run on pure hydrogen; hydrogen does not ignite under compression.
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    When I said "Bangers" I was thinking about Chevy V-8s and Holley carburetors.
    Won't diesels run at all on H2??
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  22. #1572
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    It's been known for decades that compression ignition engines cannot run on pure hydrogen; hydrogen does not ignite under compression.
    Must tell JCB urgently! They don't know that. ...

    Science is never settled,
    it advances one funeral at the time.
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    No need to tell JBC, their prototype hydrogen excavator is electric motor driven from fuel cell technology.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    Won't diesels run at all on H2??
    When I scanned around on the topic I read that pure H2 isn't suitable for diesel engines, the problem being that H2 ignites at far too low a temperature to have high enough compression ratios for the diesel cycle to be worthwhile (efficient). A hydrogen/oxygen mix injected at the right time into a conventional diesel engine can improve performance and emissions.
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  25. #1575
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    “Your registration may be suspended:” Victoria escalates war on EV owners

    https://thedriven.io/2021/08/03/your...-on-ev-owners/

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails vic-road-560x800.jpg  
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

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    ...so is this a new "state" tax?
    Fuel excise is a federal tax where as the states keep the rego and stamp duties.
    https://www.aaa.asn.au/fuel-excise-explained/
    https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petroltax/

  27. #1577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart1080 View Post
    ...so is this a new "state" tax?
    It says it's a ZLEV road user charge.
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

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    ZLEV means zero or low emission vehicle. The state guvmints do not receive revenue from ICE vehicle owners related to road use. Why aren't ICE vehicles subject to the same road usage charges as ZLEV vehicle road users in Victoria? Since when were ICE vehicle owners not road users?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    ZLEV means zero or low emission vehicle. The state guvmints do not receive revenue from ICE vehicle owners related to road use. Why aren't ICE vehicles subject to the same road usage charges as ZLEV vehicle road users in Victoria? Since when were ICE vehicle owners not road users?
    It's obviously to offset the 'lost' allocation of federal fossil fuel excise which primarily maintains the state roads.

    What constitutes "low emission"? Does the owner of a hybrid vehicle which uses petrol and charges its own battery have pay as a ZLEV while also paying fuel excise?

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    It's obviously to offset the 'lost' allocation of federal fossil fuel excise which primarily maintains the state roads.
    There is no allocation of fuel excise, proportional or otherwise, to state coffers for maintenance of state roads.

    Does the owner of a hybrid vehicle which uses petrol and charges its own battery have pay as a ZLEV while also paying fuel excise?
    Yes, 20 cents per 100km.

    The Victorian government says the money raised from the charge will be used to help fund a $100 million package of policies and programs designed to encourage the uptake of ZLEVs!!!

    Motorists driving a ZLEV that is registered in Victoria are required to pay the road user charge for all kilometres travelled within Victoria and interstate!!!

    The $100 discount for registration of ZLEVs in Victoria will continue!

    It's highly likely that the cost of administering the scheme will exceed the revenue raised...
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    It's obviously to offset the 'lost' allocation of federal fossil fuel excise which primarily maintains the state roads.

    What constitutes "low emission"? Does the owner of a hybrid vehicle which uses petrol and charges its own battery have pay as a ZLEV while also paying fuel excise?
    No. As long as it is not a plug in hybrid.

    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/regi...ad-user-charge
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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    No. As long as it is not a plug in hybrid.
    Yes that's correct. A plug in hybrid typically only has a range of a few kilometres, but gets to pay the ZLEV at the 80% rate. Go figure!

    It's not a road user tax, it's a battery tax!
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    There is no allocation of fuel excise, proportional or otherwise, to state coffers for maintenance of state roads.
    I might "rephrase". Not state, but for roads nonetheless - (from link above)

    FUEL EXCISE IS USED TO HELP PAY FOR OUR ROADS.

    “Charges applied to road users through the excise paid on petrol and diesel is used to pay for the construction and maintenance of roads in Australia.” Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack
    Unlike registration and driver’s licence fees, which go to state and territory governments, fuel excise is collected by the federal government.
    Like almost all federal taxes, fuel excise goes into the Government’s general revenue, which is then drawn upon to fund our transport infrastructure. It is the contribution that you, as a motorist, make to the development and maintenance of our road transport system.

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    ..so its the state gov introducing a brand new state tax then

    And because it affects 5,800 vehicles, it will have little resistance.
    Would have been far more efficient to slap an extra $200 on the rego, receive 1/2 the amount but with no BS logging of KM and overhead of maintaining yet another revenue tax collection scheme.

    I swear, the more tax's we pay the more inefficient the GOV becomes rather than getting the best bang for buck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart1080 View Post
    ..so its the state gov introducing a brand new state tax then

    And because it affects $5,800 vehicles, it will have little resistance.
    Would have been far more efficient to slap an extra $200 on the rego, receive 1/2 the amount but with no BS logging of KM and overhead of maintaining yet another revenue tax collection scheme.

    I swear, the more tax's we pay the more inefficient the GOV becomes rather than getting the best bang for buck
    Fuel excise is a user pays model (the more you need the more you pay), so they needed to invent a user pays model for ZLEVs (the more Ks the more you pay)
    But this one is better because you don't use your ZLEV to run your fossil chainsaw or lawn mower (or do you?)

  36. #1586
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    I have never seen a fossil chainsaw

    Science is never settled,
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    ...you don't use your ZLEV to run your fossil chainsaw or lawn mower (or do you?)
    I do. At least I live in an off-grid PV powered BEH (battery electric house), run a BEV powered off the house system and run an BEL and BEC (battery electric lawnmower and battery electric chainsaw). About 1% of the energy to run all that comes from a petrol genset.

    I guess the next thing is that councils will slap on a rate surcharge to make up for the GST not paid on electricity bills by properties with PV panels that would otherwise go into feral guvmint general revenue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    I have never seen a fossil chainsaw

    That's not a chainsaw! This is a chainsaw:

    troverfavpk.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    I guess the next thing is ..........surcharge to make up for the GST not paid on electricity bills by properties with PV panels that would otherwise go into feral guvmint general revenue.
    That's effectively already been slated by some states

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    There is no allocation of fuel excise, proportional or otherwise, to state coffers for maintenance of state roads.


    Yes, 20 cents per 100km.

    It's highly likely that the cost of administering the scheme will exceed the revenue raised...
    No. It is 2.5c or 2.0c per km. So either $2.5 or $2.0 per 100km
    If a car does 20,000km per year then the revenue will be $500 or $400. Well worth collecting.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

  41. #1591
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    NSW is tackling it in a different way, they have said they will also introduce the 2.5c fee, but not until electric cars make up 30% of new car sales or 2027 at the latest.
    VICTORIA is introducing it now, it has been labelled as the worst electric vehicle policy in the world and will stop people going electric for their next vehicle.

    https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/t...hicle-strategy

    https://thedriven.io/2021/06/20/nsw-...heres-a-catch/
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    As hard as Australian neo-conservative govmints, both Labor and Liberal, try to keep sweet with their fossil energy industry election funders and lobbyists, they won't stop the take-up of electric vehicles once people find out just how good BEVs are for everyday driving. Now at 70,000km our car has still never been in a garage except to pump up the tires. Our total expenditure on 'fuel' is ~$20 so far (we're off grid and that cost is for 5 fast charges in the city).
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    "As hard as Australian neo-conservative govmints, both Labor and Liberal, try to keep sweet with their fossil energy industry election funders and lobbyists...", one has contracted FCEVs...

    "The Nexo Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) becomes the first hydrogen-powered vehicle certified for sale in Australia, with a 20-strong fleet being leased by the ACT Government. "

    https://www.racq.com.au/living/artic...l-cell-vehicle

    Very early days, but the ability to fill up in about 4 minutes remains very attractive. There is a "H2 under 2" initiative underway to be able to sell hydrogen for under $2 per kg. FCEVs typically hold 6kgs. Range about 660+klms

    In a household with 4 cars and work locations unlikely to provide such convenience, BEVs will be difficult to keep charged. Not in the market for a new car for the foreseeable future, maybe I'll skip the BEV thing altogether...

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Our total expenditure on 'fuel' is ~$20 so far (we're off grid and that cost is for 5 fast charges in the city).

    My net expenditure over the last 12 months has probably been ~$200. Not bad for running a petrol guzzling RAV4

    ....and has nothing to do with spending seemingly half that time in lockdowns and most of us not really wanting to go back to working in the city spending 2 to 3 hours of travel a day....up at 4.30am and home at 6pm and spending 2 of those hours crammed shoulder to shoulder in sardine cans called trains!!!

    ...so at this rate hard to see me looking at any alternative (electric or H2) until one day I start doing the miles again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    Not in the market for a new car for the foreseeable future, maybe I'll skip the BEV thing altogether...
    Good luck with the FCEV conjecture; the fossil energy industry is playing on such disingenuous projections in their anti-BEV lobbying. FCEVs have been under development for longer than BEVs and had more money thrown at development, particularly in refuelling infrastructure which is a bank breaker. But what electric cars are actually on the road today? I think you could count the number of FCEV on the roads in Australia on the fingers of one hand. And don't misunderstand / misquote me, if FCEVs work that is fantastic. I just need to work out how to chill my solar electrolysed hydrogen gas to -253ºC so enough can fit in a fuel tank to be useful. Even at -253ºC hydrogen has about ⅓ the energy density of petrol or diesel, although with an electric motor that is roughly equivalent to an inefficient ICE powered vehicle with three times the tank capacity.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  47. #1597
    Je pense, donc METRIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart1080 View Post
    My net expenditure over the last 12 months has probably been ~$200. Not bad for running a petrol guzzling RAV4

    ....and has nothing to do with spending seemingly half that time in lockdowns and most of us not really wanting to go back to working in the city spending 2 to 3 hours of travel a day....up at 4.30am and home at 6pm and spending 2 of those hours crammed shoulder to shoulder in sardine cans called trains!!!

    ...so at this rate hard to see me looking at any alternative (electric or H2) until one day I start doing the miles again.
    Sounds like you need a new job
    Mieux vaut prévenir que guérir

  48. #1598
    Je pense, donc METRIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    "As hard as Australian neo-conservative govmints, both Labor and Liberal, try to keep sweet with their fossil energy industry election funders and lobbyists...", one has contracted FCEVs...

    "The Nexo Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) becomes the first hydrogen-powered vehicle certified for sale in Australia, with a 20-strong fleet being leased by the ACT Government. "

    https://www.racq.com.au/living/artic...l-cell-vehicle

    Very early days, but the ability to fill up in about 4 minutes remains very attractive. There is a "H2 under 2" initiative underway to be able to sell hydrogen for under $2 per kg. FCEVs typically hold 6kgs. Range about 660+klms

    In a household with 4 cars and work locations unlikely to provide such convenience, BEVs will be difficult to keep charged. Not in the market for a new car for the foreseeable future, maybe I'll skip the BEV thing altogether...
    Was watching an interesting comparison of EV and Hydrogen powered vehicles the other day.

    They raised a good point that Tesla (with prior years of manufacturing) jumped on board at just the right time, when VW and Diesel gate was happening, EV was looked on as the only "clean" alternative where as Hydrogen was probably the better next fuel source.
    Other manufacturers have had to jump on the EV train for fear of being left behind,

    To produce hydrogen is far cleaner than batteries, the filling is faster and conventional petrol stations could easily adapt to supply hydrogen without too much infrastructure changes.

    Heavy industry ie: cargo ships are looking at hydrogen as their clean fuel source due to the smaller amount of fuel needed to carry so frees up more room for cargo.

    Aircraft of the future are ramping up Hydrogen viability as Hydrogen pack 3 times the amount of energy of jet fuel for given weight.
    I guess potential floating and flying hydrogen bombs are something we may have to get used to in the future.
    Mieux vaut prévenir que guérir

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    Be interesting if a jet could actually work efficiently on hydrogen considering the huge tank size required, not to mention the cylinder weights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Be interesting if a jet could actually work efficiently on hydrogen considering the huge tank size required, not to mention the cylinder weights.
    Full circle?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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