Electric cars

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  1. #1601
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Sounds like you need a new job

    not too far from reality. Redundant at December 31st 2021....so who knows, train travel might be a thing of the past for me

  2. #1602
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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Be interesting if a jet could actually work efficiently on hydrogen considering the huge tank size required, not to mention the cylinder weights.
    https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news...explained.html

    Cargo ships will benefit hugely, when you look at how much dirty fuel they burn per day per ship !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart1080 View Post
    not too far from reality. Redundant at December 31st 2021....so who knows, train travel might be a thing of the past for me
    Time to change career
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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    Not really. H2 was used in the Zeppelin as a mean of lift, the propulsion was achieved with piston engines and petrol.

    The attraction of hydrogen as fuel is, that a hydrogen fuelled engine can be made with current industrial set up.
    Earthmoving equipment on H2 is currently produced by the same manufacturer of heavy diesel engines.

    The obsession with electric vehicles is more the result of a misdirected "hate" towards the petrochemical industry, (you know, those bastard fat cats) rather than a rational choice. Manufacturers produce what they can sell, and if something is attractive to the consumer they will produce it, be it a good choice or a bad one.

    Electric cars exist today, despite their many shortcomings, and their existence is not the result of an in depth analysis, but a simple opportunistic choice.
    New development in H2 fuel, or any other fuel for that matter will have an easy task in displacing EV ... unless ... a breakthrough of gargantuan proportions in batteries technology comes to the EV aid. Something like, double the capacity and almost instant charge.

    We wait with bated breath...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPR50-soNA

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    No Utube rubbish but this is a link to a financial adviser who I subscribe to just for my own information and I am not adding the link for any financial reason but half way down you will see an article from someone who has bought an electric car and his adventures and observations.

    https://www.noelwhittaker.com.au/ess...l-news-18-aug/

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    Perhaps the cylinder weight won't be that great. I watched a science program on the ABC last year looking at carbon fibre/epoxy/titanium wire fuel tanks for space ships that were much stronger than steel and at a small fraction of steels weight and storage of liquid hydrogen fuel was the aim. Not cheap and we won't be trading in our cars every three years perhaps.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  7. #1607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    No Utube rubbish but this is a link to a financial adviser who I subscribe to just for my own information and I am not adding the link for any financial reason but half way down you will see an article from someone who has bought an electric car and his adventures and observations.

    https://www.noelwhittaker.com.au/ess...l-news-18-aug/
    People often make poor choices, at least this bloke admits it.........
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

  8. #1608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    Perhaps the cylinder weight won't be that great. I watched a science program on the ABC last year looking at carbon fibre/epoxy/titanium wire fuel tanks for space ships that were much stronger than steel and at a small fraction of steels weight and storage of liquid hydrogen fuel was the aim. Not cheap and we won't be trading in our cars every three years perhaps.
    Composite lpg cylinders have been available for some time now but as you say not cheap.

  9. #1609
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    My understanding was that liquid Hydrogen cylinders had to be much stronger than the LPG cylinders and that is not easy at ultra light levels
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    petrol stations could easily adapt to supply hydrogen without too much infrastructure changes.
    Dispensing liquid hydrogen is incredibly difficult and expensive at the present time. One hydrogen bowser would probably cost more than an entire petrol station based on Honda's hydrogen refuelling stations that I have seen in Japan.

    Heavy industry ie: cargo ships are looking at hydrogen as their clean fuel source due to the smaller amount of fuel needed to carry so frees up more room for cargo.
    Liquid hydrogen takes four times more volume for the same energy content as bunker oil or diesel, and that's without factoring in the space of the gear necessary to keep the hydrogen under pressure ~400 Bar (>5000 psi).

    Aircraft of the future are ramping up Hydrogen viability as Hydrogen pack 3 times the amount of energy of jet fuel for given weight.
    Except that for the same energy hydrogen takes four times the storage volume of aviation fuel (kerosene), and the weight advantage isn't so good once the weight of the systems necessary to keep the hydrogen liquified at -253ºC are factored in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    My understanding was that liquid Hydrogen cylinders had to be much stronger than the LPG cylinders and that is not easy at ultra light levels
    The Nexo tanks are carbon fibre reinforced 'some special plastic'

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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Cargo ships will benefit hugely, when you look at how much dirty fuel they burn per day per ship !!!
    There is no need for cargo ships to burn dirty fuel, they could burn clean biodiesel right now. In fact they do burn clean fuel when inside most countries' teritorial jurisdiction. They burn bunker oil when they can get away (i.e. international waters) with it because bunker oil is by far the cheapest fuel at a fraction of diesel. Operators of freighters will not change until some other fuel source is cheaper than bunker oil, which is otherwise the unusable waste product of the oil industry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The attraction of hydrogen as fuel is, that a hydrogen fuelled engine can be made with current industrial set up.
    Earthmoving equipment on H2 is currently produced by the same manufacturer of heavy diesel engines.
    But not "with a hydrogen fuelled engine" as can be seen here: #1572 (Hint: read the title of the video you posted)

    Manufacturers produce what they can sell, and if something is attractive to the consumer they will produce it, be it a good choice or a bad one.
    Correct, people want electric cars. If you have owned one, you will know why; if you haven't owned one you are allowed to be blissfully ignorant.

    Electric cars exist today, despite their many shortcomings, and their existence is not the result of an in depth analysis, but a simple opportunistic choice
    Who wudda thort that shareholders of businesses demand that they take advantage of simple opportunistic choices to grow shareholder returns?
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  15. #1615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    No Utube rubbish but this is a link to a financial adviser who I subscribe to just for my own information and I am not adding the link for any financial reason but half way down you will see an article from someone who has bought an electric car and his adventures and observations.

    https://www.noelwhittaker.com.au/ess...l-news-18-aug/
    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    ...
    Correct, people want electric cars. If you have owned one, you will know why; if you haven't owned one you are allowed to be blissfully ignorant.
    ...
    Here in WA the only people I know with EVs also have a second car. For the reasons Bros link mentioned.
    Their range is next to useless for a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverYoung View Post
    Here in WA the only people I know with EVs also have a second car. For the reasons Bros link mentioned.
    Their range is next to useless for a lot.
    Sure. Because one vehicle doesn't cover all purposes and needs, most Australian households have multiple vehicles, not just households with a BEV! Australian vehicles average around 40km per day, which makes BEVs perfect because they can be charged overnight at home, or during the day at work. I have a BEV that is an excellent sedan, and I also have a high clearance diesel 4WD for an off road and utility vehicle. They both seat 5 adults and luggage in (relative) comfort. For the odd occasion when range is an issue I can take the diesel, so (ignoring the extra cost of using diesel) the limed range of the BEV is immaterial. I'm driving up the Flinders Ranges next week and I certainly would not take a sedan, whether ICE or BEV. A tradesman would call it 'using the most suitable tool for the job'.
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  17. #1617
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    John2b ... I think you should disclose to those that don't know you, that your electric car is a grey import worth a fraction of what is available on the Australian market, that you live on a miniature island that can be crossed with half battery charge, on a rural setting, recharge with chargers of your own making and that you also have a second car.

    In my books your electric adventure can only be classified as a hobby, and your defence of the EV is based on ideology and certainly not a from of practicality that can be suggested to others to follow.
    Not that there is nothing wrong with it.

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    ... And 5 people and their luggage in (relative) comfort in a Nissan Leaf? Very funny. I'd like to see that. Is their luggage a wallet or purse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    John2b ... I think you should disclose to those that don't know you, that your electric car is a grey import worth a fraction of what is available on the Australian market, that you live on a miniature island that can be crossed with half battery charge, on a rural setting, recharge with chargers of your own making and that you also have a second car.
    Like virtually every household in Australia I have more than one vehicle to cover different requirements needed from time to time. I bought a grey import EV because at the time I could not buy an Australian delivered EV for love or money. That does not change the economics if you are comparing apples to apples; I could have bought any grey import vehicle with similar savings. EVs are only expensive in Australia because of guvmint policy - look to New Zealand if you want an example of true free market on EV car prices compared to ICE cars.

    BTW I cannot make a round trip to the business centre on this "tiny island" without a battery recharge, and the road conditions are so bad I need light truck tires on the car. If I need to go to a hardware store, council office, library, garage, tire retailer, doctor, dentist, hospital, restaurant, chemist, crash repairer, real estate agent, newsagent, clothing shop, shoe shop, etc, etc, I need to recharge the car to get home, so I know all about 'range anxiety'. I do not have a charger "of my own making" and nothing I have done is beyond the capability of an ordinary person who is determined. (In that regard you and I are very similar Marc, don't you think?)

    Marc ... my 'hobby' as you call it, is living within my means. I don't have an income, I'm not so wealthy that unlike you I can buy anything I want to as you have often claimed, I don't get a pension or any CentreLink benefits, I don't have any benefactors, I don't get any share dividends, I don't have any concession or pension cards. I have a small amount of superannuation (from which I withdrew an amount to buy the EV) but certainly not enough superannuation to draw an income from. You know I lost everything I owned when my business and marriage collapsed some years ago. When I qualify for the pension I will be wealthiest I have been for more than a decade and a half. The cost of running an ICE car, were I depended on one, would be my single greatest annual expense, and that would be just plain stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    ... And 5 people and their luggage in (relative) comfort in a Nissan Leaf? Very funny. I'd like to see that. Is their luggage a wallet or purse?
    You are laughing because you have travelled in a Leaf? I think not. If you had, you would know that inside is the same size as any similar sedan, but without a fuel tank there is relatively large luggage space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post

    Marc ... my 'hobby' as you call it, is living within my means. I don't have an income, ...., I don't get a pension or any CentreLink benefits....I have a small amount of superannuation (from which I withdrew an amount to buy the EV) but certainly not enough superannuation to draw an income from. You know I lost everything I owned
    I hope you are not just surviving on kangaroos

  22. #1622
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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    I hope you are not just surviving on kangaroos
    Why do you think I have such a spring in my step...
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    Now now, John, I said there was nothing wrong with it.

    Yet, for 99% of the Australian population, buying an electric car would be the complete opposite from living within their means, rather it would be to buy an expensive toy, pretending to be "green".
    Will the EV ever become a cheaper alternative and a practical economical mean of transportation? May be, may be not. What is blatantly obvious, is that it is not cheap nor practical now, and its low cost of recharging is only low because it uses energy that is priced for domestic use and not charging cars, and such cheat will soon be corrected by the greed of our morons in charge.
    Is it practical for you? You say so and I believe you, yet it can hardly be so for others unless they live in peculiar circumstances.

    Most unconventional things we do, are not applicable to others. That is why I call them hobbies. My hobby is blacksmithing yet you will not hear me suggesting others make their own garden gates this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Most unconventional things we do, are not applicable to others. That is why I call them hobbies. My hobby is blacksmithing yet you will not hear me suggesting others make their own garden gates this way.
    ...yet we do hear you passing judgement on how others should behave, even when it is apparently outside of your experience and/or understanding.
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    Oh dear. Where will it all end?

    Volkswagen cancels its most popular model

    https://www.drive.com.au/news/volksw...popular-model/

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    Sounds like an attempt at "woke". Not to worry, buy a dozen wurst and have a barbeque with your family/neighbours to compensate
    Burn some lawn clipping to make extra smoke for good measure

  27. #1627
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    IKEA's meatballs will be next

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    IKEA's meatballs will be next
    I don't think they will do that before the launch of their flat pack electric car.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails no-renault-ikea-not-planning-sell-you-electric-car.jpg  
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  29. #1629
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    Drivers are challenging Victoria's electric vehicle tax, arguing it may be unconstitutional

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...ourt/100466904

    Victoria introduced the levy in July, which charges road users based on how much they travel. Electric vehicle drivers are charged between 2-2.5 cents per kilometre.


    Lawyers representing two drivers have filed documents with the High Court, arguing Victoria does not have constitutional power to introduce the tax.


    Lawyer Jack McLean from Equity Generation Lawyers said the constitution gave the power to levy consumption taxes to the Commonwealth, not the states.
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

  30. #1630
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post

    BTW I cannot make a round trip to the business centre on this "tiny island" without a battery recharge, and the road conditions are so bad I need light truck tires on the car. If I need to go to a hardware store, council office, library, garage, tire retailer, doctor, dentist, hospital, restaurant, chemist, crash repairer, real estate agent, newsagent, clothing shop, shoe shop, etc, etc, I need to recharge the car to get home,
    How long is the round trip?
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

  31. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedford View Post
    Drivers are challenging Victoria's electric vehicle tax, arguing it may be unconstitutional

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...ourt/100466904
    Is it a consumption tax though? the answer will be with the High Court, it would appear to be a very narrow and specific argument. Does it differ substantially to a road toll, a fuel excise or petroleum volume royalty. The High court may refuse to hear the case, or deliver an outcome nobody expects. Watch with interest most decisions are a bit ho hum but this may startle the pigeons, I wouldn't be taking bets, one thing is for certain it will take some of our annual tax contributions to the Commonwealth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedford View Post
    How long is the round trip?
    It's about 150km, but that is not the problem. Being off grid can't charge until the next sunny day, so keeping something in the tank is important. If grid connected would just charge overnight with cheap power and have full tank in the morning.
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  33. #1633
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Is it a consumption tax though? the answer will be with the High Court, it would appear to be a very narrow and specific argument. Does it differ substantially to a road toll, a fuel excise or petroleum volume royalty. The High court may refuse to hear the case, or deliver an outcome nobody expects. Watch with interest most decisions are a bit ho hum but this may startle the pigeons, I wouldn't be taking bets, one thing is for certain it will take some of our annual tax contributions to the Commonwealth.
    It's only collecting revenue, but to me, defeats what they really want to achieve.

    Nothing new in that!
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post

    BTW I cannot make a round trip to the business centre on this "tiny island" without a battery recharge, and the road conditions are so bad I need light truck tires on the car. If I need to go to a hardware store, council office, library, garage, tire retailer, doctor, dentist, hospital, restaurant, chemist, crash repairer, real estate agent, newsagent, clothing shop, shoe shop, etc, etc, I need to recharge the car to get home
    .
    So basically, your car being electric in those particular circumstances is as practical as an inflatable dartboard ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedford View Post
    It's only collecting revenue, but to me, defeats what they really want to achieve.

    Nothing new in that!
    The levy seems a counter productive move to me if you want to increase the uptake of electric cars. get the saturation level you have targeted then hit the public with a levy. If the aim is to pay for roads it would be nice if it didn't start with general revenue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    The levy seems a counter productive move to me if you want to increase the uptake of electric cars. get the saturation level you have targeted then hit the public with a levy. If the aim is to pay for roads it would be nice if it didn't start with general revenue.
    Politicians like to introduce levies when it affects a small number of voters. They don't want to lose voters. Eventually the levy becomes accepted and nobody can remember who introduced it. So no lost votes.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    It's called boiling the frog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    It's called boiling the frog.
    The boiling frog story is a myth; frogs are not that stupid. Voters on the other hand....

  39. #1639
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    Default Electric cars

    IMO this is the most sensible approach finally getting some momentum.

    Australia will soon be home to the world's largest green energy hydrogen manufacturing facility
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-...tone/100527670

    A way to store the surplus unwanted power and keep cars that can be refuelled quickly.


    ro

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilT2 View Post
    The boiling frog story is a myth; frogs are not that stupid. Voters on the other hand....
    It had to be you.

    Let's see, 'boiling the frog' ... is first and foremost a metaphor. Yes, a figure of speech like 'it's raining cats and dogs' ... it does not need to be true.
    Therefore it is not a "myth"
    Many authors much better known than myself have used the frog metaphor successfully. It's a simple way to describe among other things, the most disgraceful political strategies, like 40 years of unrelenting lies about global warming. Eventually someone will believe it and run to buy an electric car, regardless of the idiocy of the pretended gains.
    Only an ostrich would be able to ignore the usefulness of the frog metaphor. And yes, te ostrich does not bury his head in the sand either.

    But ... when some people did experiment trying to duplicate the metaphor unsuccessfully, there are records of others who in fact did boil the frog . It's all in the speed the water is heated ... 7C per hour apparently does boil the frog.
    I leave it to you to enquire into the etymology of "raining cats and dogs" ... tell us what you find. I heard it is actually true.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    like 40 years of unrelenting lies about global warming.
    You're right; your opinion of global warming is just like the boiling frog metaphor. Both are total fabrications.

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    Where does 40 years come from? 165 years ago in 1856 the American Journal of Science and Arts published experiments documenting the heat trapping effect of CO2 gas in the sun's rays. Nearly 150 years ago in 1877 Boltzmann's constant, the application of which determines how much warming atmospheric greenhouse gases cause, had been calculated to a degree of accuracy that hasn't changed to today except in decimal points, and by 1896, 125 years ago, it had been estimated how much warming a doubling of atmospheric CO2 would cause. That projection of global warming hasn't been bettered, and is bang on target to being confirmed in just a few years by the great experiment we are all living through.
    Oh I see, 40 years ago is about when the great climate change denial began .
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Specsavers anyone.

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    The only fabrication I can see is the one of "zero" emissions. Should be called displaced emissions and relocated industrial pollution.
    As for the metaphor being true of false, anyone can see that it does not need to be true.

    Like any illustration, it needs to convey a message. The boiling the frog illustrates deception, the ostrich effect is a cognitive bias to avoid negative information, both illustration are ancient and well known and useful to explain a psychological phenomenon.

    Boiling the frog, that is killing a frog by increasing the temperature of the water so slowly that the frog does not jump out even when it could, is possible.
    Despite the numerous party poopers who assure us it is not ... Edward Wheeler Scripture recounted this conclusion in The New Psychology (1897): "a live frog can actually be boiled without a movement if the water is heated slowly enough; in one experiment the temperature was raised at a rate of 0.002°C per second, and the frog was found dead at the end of 2½ hours without having ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Boiling_frog

    As for the ostrich, the origins of the metaphor is in attributing human like behaviour to an animal and use it as an illustration. Unlikely but effective proven illustration.
    Someone cares to bust the "myth" of the fox and the grapes? Ohhh fox don't eat grapes... Or the scorpion and the frog? Aaaah scorpion and frog don't talk ... The man on the moon? There is no air on the moon ... Doh





  45. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    The only fabrication I can see is the one of "zero" emissions. Should be called displaced emissions and relocated industrial pollution.
    Correct to some degree as this is often a point overlooked and little transparency of just how much.

    Emissions aside,
    In my mind, the real positive is innovation and development of alternative technologies (electric, hydrogen).
    Everything starts at rock bottom with lots of negatives and nay sayers but at at some stage there will be a positive benefit with this technology (what ever that may be to each individual).

    The new technologies and the energy systems will only exponentially improve in the next 10 years.
    Would be nice to have an energy system where we are not beholden to some offshore government or entity.
    Look at most things over the last 20 years and the progress to develop and improve has been phenomenal.....although some things old you just cant improve on with simplicity reliability - my old fergi tractor is a classic example, so friggin easy to work on and repair unlike new models that may as well have a "DONT TOUCH, call serviceman repair Phonenumber" printed across the motor!

    Solar panels 20 years ago, most common panel size was 150w from memory and today we are seeing common sizes pushing 400w to 500w per panel. Imagine what the car energy performance's will be with electric/Hydrogen in the next 10 to 20 years.

  46. #1646
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    A nice thought. However we will most likely become slaves to electricity supply instead of petroleum. Every change prompted by the mega rich and followed by their lackey governments is designed to tie us down more not to give as more freedom.

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    There was enough science to start mass producing renewable energy equipment in the early 1970s, but the market dominant energy monopolies fought against it tooth and nail back then just as they still do today.

    The only reason I could think of way back then was that big business and their guvment lackeys don't like monopoly breaking renewable energy, where thousands as much energy as we can ever use is falling around our ears every day waiting to be put to use.

    Instead of encouraging local generation of electricity and/or energy saving like efficient motors, etc, both guvmints and industry actively campaigned to encourage increasing energy consumption.

    Even anti-electric vehicle Marc generates his own renewable electricity, but I don't suppose he has a coal mine, oil well or fracking rig in the back yard, let alone the processing and/or refinery necessary to turn those resources into something useful.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  48. #1648
    Deactivated User Marc's Avatar
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    "Monopoly breaking renewable energy".
    That is a classic oxymoron.

    Unless one is in the minority 1% of the population living in rural area, with the time and money to build large generator and battery banks, for the rest 99%, independence from the grid is utopic. For the simple reason that all urban solar generators are attached to the electricity supplier by the hip, and the moron consumer has strings attached to the limbs and dances at the music of the supplier puppeteer. When the generator cost is covered by the ever reducing rebates, it becomes obsolete or no longer working, and the cycle starts again.
    No "monopoly breaking", rather a side dish for the said monopoly.

    And the same it is for the electric car, that will most likely be obsolete before it becomes even remotely popular.

    Contrary to what the left wants us to believe, monopolies are not the exclusive realm of the evil oil industry, or the wicked coal industry, they are the product of opportunity.
    Give any person or group the opportunity to block all competition and he will take it.
    Examples abound.
    Imagine a world that achieves the suppression of ordinary fuel vehicles, coal, oil, gas and wood centralising the production of the only allowed energy in one, electricity. This is the same energy required for homes, light, cooking (after demonising gas) and everything else. How do you call that? The fricken largest monopoly ever.

    Do you really think that even if you build your own generator you will be left at your own devices free like a bird? Not for a minute. After enough fall in the "independence" trap, taxes will follow with any conceivable excuse whilst the price per KW keeps on going up because ... well any reason will be a good one.
    How about those poor sod who build their own dam for irrigation, filled by the rain that is free, yet have to pay for using their own water?

    Monopolies are a fact of life, and no Karl Marx call to arms nor Thomas More inspired utopia will change that.

    Having said that, if someone offers a 4wd vehicle with 150 KW power, and autonomy of 500 km, priced same or cheaper than a Landcruiser, I am in for one.
    Meantime, all is good as it is. And when the power goes, that is rather often, I get to play with my Kubota diesel generator. Love it

    By the way good to see I woke you up from your slumber. Hope all is good in your corner of the woods.


    Libellus vere aureus, nec minus salutaris quam festivus, de optimo rei publicae statu deque nova insula Utopia,
    A little, true book, not less beneficial than enjoyable, about how things should be in a state and about the new island Utopia"

    A picture of the island of Utopia
    Utopia translate into "No place"


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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    There was enough science to start mass producing renewable energy equipment in the early 1970s, but the market dominant energy monopolies fought against it tooth and nail back then just as they still do today.

    The only reason I could think of way back then was that big business and their guvment lackeys don't like monopoly breaking renewable energy, where thousands as much energy as we can ever use is falling around our ears every day waiting to be put to use.

    Instead of encouraging local generation of electricity and/or energy saving like efficient motors, etc, both guvmints and industry actively campaigned to encourage increasing energy consumption.

    Even anti-electric vehicle Marc generates his own renewable electricity, but I don't suppose he has a coal mine, oil well or fracking rig in the back yard, let alone the processing and/or refinery necessary to turn those resources into something useful.

    "Petrol is the ultimate in recycling" starts at 9 mins if you are time limited.
    Very funny view of the world.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivXI0Niifak
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

  50. #1650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    By the way good to see I woke you up from your slumber. Hope all is good in your corner of the woods.
    Been here all along, just haven't had anything to contribute. Life's been good and since we have everything we need here, thank you, and our lives and home totally unaffected by Covid, lockdowns, shortages and bureaucracy. No petrol to buy, no electricity or water to pay for, don't even need toilet paper with a $27 bidet bought from Vietnam on fleaBay. And no, it's not time and/or money that gave us this, but simple choices that anyone can make. The only requirement is to abandon wilful blindness.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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