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Adding underfloor insulation, help needed

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  1. #1
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    Default Adding underfloor insulation, help needed

    Hi all,

    I live in S.E Vic, in a area that's pretty chilly over winter. I'm wanting to improve my homes (built ~1980 ) thermals a little by potentially adding some underfloor insulation - but I have no particular experience doing so, and would love any pointers or advice anyone can offer.

    My joist spacings are 410mm & there is a reasonable amount of room underneath to maneuver as the house is slightly raised on stumps, being built on a sloped block. The area I'm looking to do for a start is about 5m x 6.5m.

    The local hardware can get both wool style batts & polystyrene insulation, with similar R values.

    My main concern is making sure I do it right, and not creating any new issues such as condensation/mold or rodents nests.

    Any advice on the best path to take to get started? The polystyrene insulation sounded OK in terms of ease of installation, possibly securing in place with plastic strapping & staples?

    If anyone has any pointers/tips/advise to share, it would be much appreciated!
    Cheers
    SB

  2. #2
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    If space is tight any of the fibreglass batts can be a real PITA to install due to the dreaded itch problem. If I was going to attempt it again I would use one of the polyester batt insulations.
    Wind can rob heat or add it so I used breathable but wind resistant weed mat over the fibre stuff.
    For me the hardest part of the actual install was the super hard 50 YO hardwood framing, the staples wouldn't go in.
    Breathable heavy duty RFL wall wrap on it's own would also work to a degree.
    Where I did manage to get the underfloor batts installed the house is more comfortable, warmer in winter and cooler in summer
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  3. #3
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    If space is tight any of the fibreglass batts can be a real PITA to install due to the dreaded itch problem. If I was going to attempt it again I would use one of the polyester batt insulations.
    Wind can rob heat or add it so I used breathable but wind resistant weed mat over the fibre stuff.
    For me the hardest part of the actual install was the super hard 50 YO hardwood framing, the staples wouldn't go in.
    Breathable heavy duty RFL wall wrap on it's own would also work to a degree.
    Where I did manage to get the underfloor batts installed the house is more comfortable, warmer in winter and cooler in summer
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  4. #4
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    I did my underfloor with the earthwool underfloor batts, I found them cheap online and then made bunnings price match. earthwool is far nicer to handle then the normal fibreglass stuff.

    I then bought a long long roll of the blue plastic box strapping stuff. I shoved the batt into place between the joists, and then using a staple gun held it in place with the blue strapping tape over the batt.
    Remember if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the replies, and the info.

    The pain of the fibreglass stuff I could happily do without, will have to see which exact batts they stock locally.

    The polystyrene panels sound good, but I do wonder how it goes if the joist spaces are at all out of square - the batts I can imagine can just wedge/fold in to make up and potential gap, but with a solid panel seems like one could end up with gaps if not cut perfectly?

  6. #6
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    Just adding a couple of more notes & questions & I've attached a basic diagram of the house layout.

    The house unfortunately doesn't naturally capture much of the sun, with only one North facing window.

    Over winter temps overnight might drop to say 5 degrees, and even though during the day the out side temperature rises, it seems to get colder inside.
    I've measured inside temps on a winter morning at 9am, and by 11am the temperature can drop a few degrees, even though the outside temps have risen to 15-20 degrees C.

    Not sure if I going mad, or if this a known phenomenon?
    Any advice regarding insulation to possibly improve this in any way would be much appreciated!


    house_insu.jpg

  7. #7
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    Best bang for buck will come from fixing biggest problem, but not sure what is the most significant cause of heat loss with information posted. Thermal losses in winter will be likely be mainly convection, then conduction. Have you eliminated all drafts (around doors, windows, wall vents, ceiling penetrations like extractor fans, etc)? What is the wall construction and what insulation is already there? Are the windows double glazed? Do you get condensation on the inside of glass windows? You might get a better insight on where heat leaks with some thermal imaging of inside surfaces on a cold day.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  8. #8
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    I used Wren concertina foil batts under the floor in the extension before laying the flooring. They do make some difference, and perhaps are easy to retrofit as they hold their shape and fit odd shapes easily. Haven't looked for ages as to whether they are still available

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    Best bang for buck will come from fixing biggest problem, but not sure what is the most significant cause of heat loss with information posted. Thermal losses in winter will be likely be mainly convection, then conduction. Have you eliminated all drafts (around doors, windows, wall vents, ceiling penetrations like extractor fans, etc)? What is the wall construction and what insulation is already there? Are the windows double glazed? Do you get condensation on the inside of glass windows? You might get a better insight on where heat leaks with some thermal imaging of inside surfaces on a cold day.
    Thanks for the reply.

    The two swinging external doors have a tight fit in their frames, threshold seals and no sign of drafts (also tested with a candle) - the other external door is sliding unit.

    The windows do get some condensation over winter, but not as bad as experienced in some other houses.The majority of the windows are older single glazed (~3mm glass) with old mission brown aluminum frames. Some of the south facing windows are newer single glazed units (~5mm glass)


    The ceiling has a full coverage of fiberglass insulation. I haven't seen inside the walls, but given what seems to be the norm for this area & the date of build, I highly doubt there is any wall insulation.
    The exterior is cladded with a masonite style boarding, and in some places replaced with a cement-fibre board.

    The bathroom extraction fans vent into the ceiling space, and so there is a penetration through the fan housing.

    I have been around the house inside and out and tried to seal as many obvious holes/gaps as I can, with either caulk, expanding foam or closed-cell backer rod depending on the size.

    I had wondered how successful I could hope to be making changes blind, or whether a more measured approach might be more successful? I'm in a rural area with no equipment hire places local, so would have to purchase one - but just wasn't sure whether spending a few hundred dollars to buy one, would be more worthwhile than just slapping up some insulation regardless?

    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    I used Wren concertina foil batts under the floor in the extension before laying the flooring. They do make some difference, and perhaps are easy to retrofit as they hold their shape and fit odd shapes easily. Haven't looked for ages as to whether they are still available
    Very interesting, thanks.
    I'll have a search, just not sure they'd be available locally.


    img_5182.jpg

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootes View Post
    I had wondered how successful I could hope to be making changes blind, or whether a more measured approach might be more successful? I'm in a rural area with no equipment hire places local, so would have to purchase one - but just wasn't sure whether spending a few hundred dollars to buy one, would be more worthwhile than just slapping up some insulation regardless?
    It's hard to know what to do when the mechanisms of heat loss are essentially invisible. However just doing SOMETHING isn't necessarily going to be a winner and may in fact lead to a false conclusion that nothing is worth doing. Here's a (poor) analogy: say you have a bucket that leaks water through cracks, small holes and large holes. Just doing something is like putting a bandage around the middle of the bucket. It may reduce the loss of water from the bucket if it inadvertently fully or partially covers some of the holes, but will it make any significant difference? Probably not. First fix the big holes, then the small holes, then the cracks. Surprisingly (or not!) once the big and small holes are fixed, filling the cracks seems to make a huge difference, but fixing them first leads to an imperceptible result.

    Without an IR camera, I suggest drafts as #1 priority. The candle trick on a really windy day is a great tool. Then look at surface temperatures - hold your hand on walls, ceilings, doors, floors, windows etc. Anything that feels cold on a cold day is literally sucking out heat, more-so the colder it feels. Bear in mind that heat loss is a function of both leakage and area. A small loss over a large area might be more significant than a large loss over a small area. E.g. a large double glazed lounge window can lose way more heat than a single glazed toilet window.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  11. #11
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    To address some specifics you raised, aluminium frames are notorious for conduction heat out in winter. I have successfully used 4mm acrylic sheet to cover the glass and frame of a (non opening) window exposed to cold winds. I use simple clips to hold the acrylic in place so that it can be removed for cleaning. The sheet also blocks drafts through a poorly fitted window retaining rubber, which seems to be a common problem with aluminium framed windows. Remember to allow 1mm per meter minimum for expansion.

    'Bubble glazing' is a cheap and effective retrofit to bathroom and other privacy windows, also skylights. Simply cut some good strength bubble wrap to fit over frosted glass; hold in place with sticky tape. I don't think anyone ever noticed the bubble glazing unless I pointed it out. I used five layers simply laid in sheets on the ceiling diffusor of a large skylight in a bedroom with no exterior window, and it made a quite noticeable difference to warmth without affect the light.

    Penetrations through the ceiling can be quite significant heat losses, e.g. exhaust fans, range hoods, chimneys, poorly fitted access covers, etc. Range hoods should have an internal damper; a thing called a draft stopper can be added to some exhaust fans (https://www.draftstoppa.com.au/draftstoppa/), chimneys or flues should have a damper that can be closed. Also wall vents in older houses which were necessary with open gas fires are redundant today and should be blocked.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    It's hard to know what to do when the mechanisms of heat loss are essentially invisible. However just doing SOMETHING isn't necessarily going to be a winner and may in fact lead to a false conclusion that nothing is worth doing.

    Without an IR camera, I suggest drafts as #1 priority. The candle trick on a really windy day is a great tool. Then look at surface temperatures - hold your hand on walls, ceilings, doors, floors, windows etc. Anything that feels cold on a cold day is literally sucking out heat, more-so the colder it feels. Bear in mind that heat loss is a function of both leakage and area. A small loss over a large area might be more significant than a large loss over a small area. E.g. a large double glazed lounge window can lose way more heat than a single glazed toilet window.
    Thanks very much for those replies John2b, some bloody brilliant info and suggestions. And funnily enough that analogy resonates quite well with how I was visualizing the issue.

    I think I will try to track down a affordable thermal imager and start there. Hopefully then I can attempt to make educated and efficient changes, rather than pissing in the wind & hoping for the best.

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