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  1. #1
    Senior Member YoungBolt's Avatar
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    Default Where can I and should I place split systems inverter in my house?

    Hi all,

    I got a 70s house with no wall insulation (only loose-fill ceiling insulation) and one rubbish old inverter so my heating/cooling is pretty average at best. I got more blankets around the place than I have shoes!

    I'd really appreciate some help on the cheapest ways to cool and heat my house. I'm not planning to stay here for more than 1-2 more years so I don't want to invest into ducted systems. Budget is low as possible.

    This is my house layout.


    Currently got a 10yo 2.4kw system on the wall of the lounge and it barely does anything for the house and mildly cools/heats the lounge room. Bedrooms, dining room etc get zilch. I use power hungry plug-in electric heater to slowly and fairly poorly heat up my bedroom. I don't use the other larger bedroom because it's so hard to heat and cool it.

    I've bought a big 6kw panasonic inverter to replace the old one I've got. If I put it where my current one is - does it have a chance of heating/cooling at least the smaller bedroom?

    Should I move it somewhere else to make it effective? I was thinking against the dining room wall?

    Bedroom wise - is there any way to heat/cool them without having to install an inverter per room. I'd love to be able to fit one above the bathroom door as it could get into both rooms, but I don't think I'm able to fit on there. Height above the door is 250mm from door frame to skirting and 340mm to roof - plus it's only 1000mm wide.
    I thought of a cheaper option to help cool/heat rooms would be to install a fan

    Any suggestions on what to do ?

    Thanks folks

  2. #2
    Slow but rough Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    In my opinion you may hard pushed to heat the whole house due to heat loss due to the lack of insulation. That said, if you can either push the warm air into the bedrooms or pull the cold from the bedrooms back besides the heater, then you may have a chance of at least taking the edge off.

  3. #3
    Senior Member YoungBolt's Avatar
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    Funnily enough I’ve grown up in houses that had no wall insulation but had ducted heating so I don’t remember the house ever feeling cold.
    This place is always cold - even when the inverter runs full blast for hours on end. Cooling is ok because I have big windows and multiple sliding door/security doors.

    bedrooms are ok with heat when a plug in heater is running and you’ll feel the heat within 30-60min. Turn it off and it’s cold quickly.

    Ive been wondering if I should put insulation in the walls. I can do the labour myself but I have no idea of the cost for the insulation.

    How would be the best way to push the air? Woud fans in the bedroom work ?

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    I had an air transfer fan in a house once, it really didn’t work well enough to warrant its use. For the cost of air con these days I wouldn’t bother. The new air con should do the area easily, especially with windows covered, and block any drafts (under front door, leaky windows etc)

    for the 1 to 2 year timeline, you won’t come close to paying off a bedroom pair of air conditioners, unless you get a second hand one installed diy’ed

  5. #5
    Deactivated User Marc's Avatar
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    New small aircon for the bedroom, if spare money new one for the living room.

    Insulating the walls will do zilch and cost a bomb.

    PS
    I read you already have a new massive on in the living room. Way too big.

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    You have a new 6kw unit so place it where the existing one is.
    Then try using a small cheap pedestal fan at the hall doorway, with laundry door, toilet door, and bathroom door shut as much as possible.
    Point the pedestal fan toward the top of the second bedroom door, or shut that door if not in use, and point toward the main bed door.
    It may be a pain having a pedestal fan there but air con does not go around corners but can sometimes be persuaded to do so.
    Of course a small unit in both bedrooms will solve the problem in those rooms but will cost.
    That is about all you can do without ducted air.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy2 View Post
    I had an air transfer fan in a house once, it really didn’t work well enough to warrant its use. For the cost of air con these days I wouldn’t bother. The new air con should do the area easily, especially with windows covered, and block any drafts (under front door, leaky windows etc)

    for the 1 to 2 year timeline, you won’t come close to paying off a bedroom pair of air conditioners, unless you get a second hand one installed diy’ed
    I've never heard of a transfer fan system but looking at it I can see how it wouldn't do much.

    I'm well assured that the big bastard 6kw inverter will cool the lounge & dining area no stress - I was just hoping that it would have a chance at reaching the bedrooms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    New small aircon for the bedroom, if spare money new one for the living room.

    Insulating the walls will do zilch and cost a bomb.

    PS
    I read you already have a new massive on in the living room. Way too big.
    Insulation would do nothing? I thought I could maybe fit the insulation between the frame and the bricks without ripping off plaster sheets. There is a approx 1" +/- gap between frame and bricks.

    More I read into it, more it seems I need to get a unit for a bedroom. There's an ebay seller doing refurb units for $650 installed - might just put that in the bedroom.

    I only paid $800 for the big bertha 6kw system from a family friend (they bought brand new panasonic inverter for an extention but wasn't enough clearance b/w wall & fence for the compressor) which is about the same cost as a 2.4-3kw system so no point selling it I suppose. I just figured with some good power it might get into the bedrooms. Bigger system I'd assume would mean it would barely work to heat/cool the lounge/dining area. Father in-law is an electrician so thankfully the wiring part is basically free for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by cyclic View Post
    You have a new 6kw unit so place it where the existing one is.
    Then try using a small cheap pedestal fan at the hall doorway, with laundry door, toilet door, and bathroom door shut as much as possible.
    Point the pedestal fan toward the top of the second bedroom door, or shut that door if not in use, and point toward the main bed door.
    It may be a pain having a pedestal fan there but air con does not go around corners but can sometimes be persuaded to do so.
    Of course a small unit in both bedrooms will solve the problem in those rooms but will cost.
    That is about all you can do without ducted air.
    Do you think a fan in the hallway would work? Or one in the dining room?

  8. #8
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    I would not expect much impact on the bedrooms at all. Wall insulation is very effective provided there is ceiling insulation, but windows then become the problem. That 1 inch space between the bricks and frame is meant to be free of any material, it is your moisture barrier and allows free air!

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    Do you think a fan in the hallway would work? Or one in the dining room?[Q

    If ??? the 6kw does not heat all the rooms, a small fan may help to distribute the air.
    Where you place it is up to you.
    Air con conditions the air in the room, so assisting cold air out of the other rooms and pushing warm air in is the idea.

    Let's face it, we have reverse switches on ceiling fans for winter to lift the cold air from the floor and in turn circulate the warm air from the ceiling.

    I tried it with a larger home for cooling and it helped, but of course, it was not a replacement for a a specific unit in each room, or ducted air, and I am not for one minute, saying it will work in your situation, but short of spending more money, you don't have much to lose on a small fan.
    It does not have to be a pedestal type, it can sit on the floor where you can fall over it.

  10. #10
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    It's the 2 year time frame that I see as the issue, no real point in doing any massive work on insulating walls/floor etc.
    Getting really good curtains for the windows with efficient pelmets tho could help a lot, especially if looks are not important; think Op-Shop curtains and heavy woollen blankets.
    Also simple box type floor fans can be screwed to the ceiling easily so you don't trip over them
    An alternative to insulating the walls internally is hanging insulating blankets around the inside of the house along the external walls as if the house was a Mongolian yurt/ gur, long curtain rails screwed to the walls right at the ceiling but that is going to look daggy depending on your point of view.
    Ten years ago I would have said put a cheap pot belly stove in the big bedroom but the side costs of doing so now make a split system cheaper
    I guess you could move the old split system unit and re-use it in the main bedroom but that would be a gamble due to its age
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  11. #11
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    I would just see how well the new unit works. You may find the old unit was performing well below capacity too - making the problem appear worse.
    For several years we did a whole 3br house with a large split. 1 bedroom missed out altogether though, due to the hallway design, but the other 2 got enough heat in winter just by putting the ceiling fan on reverse in the lounge. In summer we used a pedestal fan very successfully.

    Air transfer ducts can work well, if you size them right, and locate them right. A transfer duct cannot heat the air (unless a heater is fitted inline) so it will only ever shift air that's a few degrees cooler than the source point (allowing for losses in the ducting & turbulence). You need to think out of the box with them - it's not simply about taking the hot (or cold) air from one place & giving it to another - it's about creating movement of air to exchange it, and disperse the air where you want it. I have a family room that's practically in the middle of the house, so installing a split would be next to impossible, and with other splits already in the house, I didn't want to go ducted. I found the "hottest" and "coldest" spot in the room where the large split works, using an infrared thermometer. I located the duct there. In winter it picks up that air, at about 37 degrees, and transfers it 6m into the family room. I have the fan on 1/2 speed, and it's near silent. The air coming out the register is about 30 degrees, but the room itself is very comfortable, and you can't really tell the difference between the 2 rooms. However, shut the door that goes to the hallway, and it ceases to work properly - it's relying on cycling the cooler air back into the warmer room, to held distribute it better. In summer the opposite works better - exhausting the warmer air from the family room, back into the coldest room where the split is. It can be 20 in there, and 22 in the family room, so it works quite well to help distribute the air quietly. We had previously used a pedestal fan in summer, but to achieve the same comfort, it had to be on 2 or 3, which was noisy, and in the walkway.

    In your house, I would look at seeing how well the new A/C works, with the aforementioned advice of closing doors. If it's still not enough, then perhaps a transfer duct from near the linen press, over the bathroom, and into the main bedroom. You could run it either way - exhausting the air into the lounge would draw more air down the hall & into the bedroom.
    If that's still not enough, and/or you need B2 to be comfortable as well, then a small split in the main bedroom, and a transfer duct in from B1 to B2 may be all you need (but you'll need to leave those 2 doors open to allow the airflow to occur).

  12. #12
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    I had a similar issue recently where a front bedroom was really hot on 35+ days in summer and an old split system in my living area. (heating isn't much of an issue as I have ducted gas)
    The advice I was given was to heat/cool the spaces I want to be hot or cold so Installed a split system in the hot bedroom instead of the hallway. I'd probably give you the same advice, upgrading your existing split to a 6kw is a good start, but perhaps in addition put a 2 head split in the bedroom seeing as they are adjacent. Heat/Cool the spaces that are most important to you. That will take care of those spaces and get a "tastic" or whatever heat lamps in your bathroom.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    New small aircon for the bedroom, if spare money new one for the living room.

    Insulating the walls will do zilch and cost a bomb.

    PS
    I read you already have a new massive on in the living room. Way too big.
    no way the 6kw is way too big. As a room, without partition is the living, dining, kitchen and hallway (areas he cant close off)

    Id put it in if its not already installed. Look at a cheapo for the bedroom if its not doing the job enough for you. Depending on your plans for the house beyond those 1-2 years, you may get away with just leaving the 1 system. If you plan to lease it out, adding 1 to the bedroom might be handy too

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    Your situation is one of poor displacement rather than containment....and for what it's going to cost running the a/c for heating I'd sell the place now.
    Secondly, those living in your region will have a better idea as to the relative nature of your problem and personally I wouldn't use air conditioning for heating as it's a zero pressure system

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    Quote Originally Posted by stucutz View Post
    Your situation is one of poor displacement rather than containment....and for what it's going to cost running the a/c for heating I'd sell the place now.
    Secondly, those living in your region will have a better idea as to the relative nature of your problem and personally I wouldn't use air conditioning for heating as it's a zero pressure system
    Could you explain that to me please, I've not heard this term used in this manner before Reverse cycle we find quite cheap to run BTW
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    Could you explain that to me please, I've not heard this term used in this manner before Reverse cycle we find quite cheap to run BTW
    both the houses I've owned already had ducted gas heating. I like it as I grew up with it, but most new builds have ducted reverse cycle or multi headed splits.
    My neighbour just did a full gut and rebuild of a victorian, 2 storey extension at the back etc and he said he did a lot of research and found reverse cycle to be the most efficient, just like you say and I have no reason to doubt him.

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    Confuses me too.

    I've never been able to get natural gas at any of the places I've owned, and I'm not about to run bottle$ - I've seen how expensive that can be when past neighbours ran an LPG heater (and all the downsides like the generated moisture, CO etc).

    We've used R/C for heating in my houses for 20 years, and I can remember as far back as the early 80s when my parents removed the old oil heater after being impressed with how cheap R/C aircon was to run - even back then with way less efficiency (the old Weatherwall units).

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    I think that it varies from state to state. There has been a lot of publicity about gas prices and how much they are rising. In Victoria natural gas is still cheap as chips. I just did a quick web search and natural gas goes for between 1.4c and 1.9c per megajoule. This equates to 5c to 7c per kWh. Electricity goes for about 25c to 30c per kWh.

    Reverse cycle air conditioning is certainly efficient (thermodynamically), but in Victoria it needs to have a coefficient of performance of 5 to be cheaper.

    I run reverse cycle for heating during the day when the sun is shining and my PV system is producing excess power. After the sun goes down, gas is the go (especially in Victoria with brown coal).
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    and natural gas goes for between 1.4c and 1.9c per megajoule. This equates to 5c to 7c per kWh. Electricity goes for about 25c to 30c per kWh.

    I just had a look at my last gas bill and the charge is $0.028 per MJ. Supply is 64 cents per day. I'll take that to mean 10 cents per kWh. Might drag the gas heater back out, no wait wouldn't reverse cycle a/c be about equivalent for me!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    I just had a look at my last gas bill and the charge is $0.028 per MJ. Supply is 64 cents per day. I'll take that to mean 10 cents per kWh. Might drag the gas heater back out, no wait wouldn't reverse cycle a/c be about equivalent for me!?
    It’s probably ‘six of one or a half a dozen of the other’ at that rate.
    There is no middle ground between facts and fallacies - argumentum ad temperantiam

  21. #21
    Senior Member YoungBolt's Avatar
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    To say I got a few creative responses is an understatement!!

    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    I would not expect much impact on the bedrooms at all. Wall insulation is very effective provided there is ceiling insulation, but windows then become the problem. That 1 inch space between the bricks and frame is meant to be free of any material, it is your moisture barrier and allows free air!
    I was only counting on being able to push in the insulation and no way would I bother ripping off plaster to fit. I'll just leave it on the bucket list for the next house! Totally slipped my mind about moisture barrier!

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclic View Post
    Do you think a fan in the hallway would work? Or one in the dining room?[Q

    If ??? the 6kw does not heat all the rooms, a small fan may help to distribute the air.
    Where you place it is up to you.
    Air con conditions the air in the room, so assisting cold air out of the other rooms and pushing warm air in is the idea.

    Let's face it, we have reverse switches on ceiling fans for winter to lift the cold air from the floor and in turn circulate the warm air from the ceiling.

    I tried it with a larger home for cooling and it helped, but of course, it was not a replacement for a a specific unit in each room, or ducted air, and I am not for one minute, saying it will work in your situation, but short of spending more money, you don't have much to lose on a small fan.
    It does not have to be a pedestal type, it can sit on the floor where you can fall over it.
    Hhahha I might use a pedestal fan in desperate times but I might still install some ceiling fans in the bedrooms. I've a family member who is an electrician so I only need to fund the cost of a ceiling fan as I'll install it myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    It's the 2 year time frame that I see as the issue, no real point in doing any massive work on insulating walls/floor etc.
    Getting really good curtains for the windows with efficient pelmets tho could help a lot, especially if looks are not important; think Op-Shop curtains and heavy woollen blankets.
    Also simple box type floor fans can be screwed to the ceiling easily so you don't trip over them
    An alternative to insulating the walls internally is hanging insulating blankets around the inside of the house along the external walls as if the house was a Mongolian yurt/ gur, long curtain rails screwed to the walls right at the ceiling but that is going to look daggy depending on your point of view.
    Ten years ago I would have said put a cheap pot belly stove in the big bedroom but the side costs of doing so now make a split system cheaper
    I guess you could move the old split system unit and re-use it in the main bedroom but that would be a gamble due to its age
    Some very interesting suggestions!! I'm not in a sharehouse so might avoid op-shop curtains and wog-style wall carpets :P

    Quote Originally Posted by commodorenut View Post
    I would just see how well the new unit works. You may find the old unit was performing well below capacity too - making the problem appear worse.
    For several years we did a whole 3br house with a large split. 1 bedroom missed out altogether though, due to the hallway design, but the other 2 got enough heat in winter just by putting the ceiling fan on reverse in the lounge. In summer we used a pedestal fan very successfully.

    In your house, I would look at seeing how well the new A/C works, with the aforementioned advice of closing doors. If it's still not enough, then perhaps a transfer duct from near the linen press, over the bathroom, and into the main bedroom. You could run it either way - exhausting the air into the lounge would draw more air down the hall & into the bedroom.
    If that's still not enough, and/or you need B2 to be comfortable as well, then a small split in the main bedroom, and a transfer duct in from B1 to B2 may be all you need (but you'll need to leave those 2 doors open to allow the airflow to occur).
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian7886 View Post
    no way the 6kw is way too big. As a room, without partition is the living, dining, kitchen and hallway (areas he cant close off)

    Id put it in if its not already installed. Look at a cheapo for the bedroom if its not doing the job enough for you. Depending on your plans for the house beyond those 1-2 years, you may get away with just leaving the 1 system. If you plan to lease it out, adding 1 to the bedroom might be handy too
    I might get a quote to see what it'll cost to move the current inverter to the larger bedroom. She works, just probably not at the level she once did and in that lounge/dining area I think she is just too small for the area. The unit has some broken fins inside and the timer doesn't work but she generaly heats and cools the immediate area. It is a gamble, but once the wiring and plumbing is there for the unit then replacing her with a new inverter (provided the refrigerant and power is the same as a current one) should be pretty easy (even maybe DIY hush hush)

    [QUOTE=commodorenut;1077148]I would just see how well the new unit works. You may find the old unit was performing well below capacity too - making the problem appear worse.
    For several years we did a whole 3br house with a large split. 1 bedroom missed out altogether though, due to the hallway design, but the other 2 got enough heat in winter just by putting the ceiling fan on reverse in the lounge. In summer we used a pedestal fan very successfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by commodorenut View Post
    Air transfer ducts can work well, if you size them right, and locate them right. A transfer duct cannot heat the air (unless a heater is fitted inline) so it will only ever shift air that's a few degrees cooler than the source point (allowing for losses in the ducting & turbulence). You need to think out of the box with them - it's not simply about taking the hot (or cold) air from one place & giving it to another - it's about creating movement of air to exchange it, and disperse the air where you want it. I have a family room that's practically in the middle of the house, so installing a split would be next to impossible, and with other splits already in the house, I didn't want to go ducted. I found the "hottest" and "coldest" spot in the room where the large split works, using an infrared thermometer. I located the duct there. In winter it picks up that air, at about 37 degrees, and transfers it 6m into the family room. I have the fan on 1/2 speed, and it's near silent. The air coming out the register is about 30 degrees, but the room itself is very comfortable, and you can't really tell the difference between the 2 rooms. However, shut the door that goes to the hallway, and it ceases to work properly - it's relying on cycling the cooler air back into the warmer room, to held distribute it better. In summer the opposite works better - exhausting the warmer air from the family room, back into the coldest room where the split is. It can be 20 in there, and 22 in the family room, so it works quite well to help distribute the air quietly. We had previously used a pedestal fan in summer, but to achieve the same comfort, it had to be on 2 or 3, which was noisy, and in the walkway.

    In your house, I would look at seeing how well the new A/C works, with the aforementioned advice of closing doors. If it's still not enough, then perhaps a transfer duct from near the linen press, over the bathroom, and into the main bedroom. You could run it either way - exhausting the air into the lounge would draw more air down the hall & into the bedroom.
    If that's still not enough, and/or you need B2 to be comfortable as well, then a small split in the main bedroom, and a transfer duct in from B1 to B2 may be all you need (but you'll need to leave those 2 doors open to allow the airflow to occur).
    Thanks for the advice and your experiences with air transfer fans. I'm putting the air transfer ducts on the list as well. I'll fit the new 6kw system and then put the ceiling fans in the bedrooms and see how it all goes. Don't want to overinvest here as I'm not hoping to stay for many more years.

  22. #22
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    Also - I don't have a gas heater anymore. It was a 1970s original that made a shitload of noise and felt I'm operating a device from 1920. Didn't feel safe at all. I now have an induction stovetop so my hot water is the last gas device in the house!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    I think that it varies from state to state. There has been a lot of publicity about gas prices and how much they are rising. In Victoria natural gas is still cheap as chips. I just did a quick web search and natural gas goes for between 1.4c and 1.9c per megajoule. This equates to 5c to 7c per kWh. Electricity goes for about 25c to 30c per kWh.

    Reverse cycle air conditioning is certainly efficient (thermodynamically), but in Victoria it needs to have a coefficient of performance of 5 to be cheaper.

    I run reverse cycle for heating during the day when the sun is shining and my PV system is producing excess power. After the sun goes down, gas is the go (especially in Victoria with brown coal).
    True, but the system has to be size right. for example a 2.5kW (bedroom sized) air con has a higher COP/EER making it a higher star rating. The amount of misinformed people I get through the door who say thats what they need because its better on power......For their living area....once that unit is too small for a space all efficiencies go out the window.

    same goes for gas heaters too, if its not a big unit, it will either require hours upon hours of use to warm up a decent amount of space (where you arent reduced to sitting ontop of the heater for warmth), so these are considerations that need to be made when selecting any heating or cooling. Dont just look at specs, put it in the practical situation. Will it be big enough or am i going to flog the @@@@ out of it to get it to actually make a difference

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