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Are these gas bottles legally sited?

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  1. #1
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    Default Are these gas bottles legally sited?

    These bottles have been in this position for 18years and are as installed by the gas fitter when the house was built. We have had bottles delivered and installed by the local gas supplier all that time without hassle. Today the delivery guy was going to refuse to install because he said the installation was illegal. His issues were - under stairs, closer than 1 meter to an open drain (gully trap under the tap), more than 400mm inside the building line (under the deck) closer than 1 meter to combustible material ( the deck), and the delivery pipe was not secured to the timber pier (yet it is quite rigid and barely moves when pushed). I finally convinced him to install the bottle saying I will have it fixed by the next delivery as I am about to concrete the area and will rearrange the bottles to satisfy him. Is he correct?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails photo-1.jpg   photo-4.jpg   photo-3.jpg   photo-2.jpg  
    David L
    "A dedicated amateur will always do a better job than a slap dash professional"

  2. #2
    Golden Member GraemeCook's Avatar
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    Yep. We had same issues two years ago. There are also minimum distances from openable windows and doorways, and rules about bottle supports and restraints.

    If you do not comply you may also invalidate your house insurance.



    Fair Winds

    Graeme

  3. #3
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    At the end of the day he has the right to refuse supply, and if he does, you simply take the bottle and get it filled yourself then test for leaks with a spray bottle of soapy water, same as he should do after he fits the new bottle.

    I would venture to say his main bitch would be bending his back to get under there.

    He is partially correct with some of his rulings.

    Wait and see what happens next delivery.

    He may have been having a bad hair day.

  4. #4
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    How much did they charge to change a bottle?

  5. #5
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    Illegal installation. Bloke was just doing his job at the end of the day.
    Plumbers were around long before Jesus was a carpenter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    How much did they charge to change a bottle?
    $44 plus the annual "maintenance " fee of $13.5 each - second bottle in 3 and a half years
    David L
    "A dedicated amateur will always do a better job than a slap dash professional"

  7. #7
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    Mine are under the ramp to the back door and were installed early in 2008 by a licensed gas fitter / plumber. It's a solid concrete ramp, open on 2 sides.

    At the time, he was quite pedantic about it and referred to an Australian Standard book and confirmed that the installation did meet requirements. There's a compliance tag attached, and a copy of a form was given to me that states everything complies with the rules.

    Should I be worried? There are 2 x 9kg gas bottles installed and all plumbing is with copper pipe (no hoses etc).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wombat2 View Post
    $44 plus the annual "maintenance " fee of $13.5 each - second bottle in 3 and a half years
    Pretty cheap I thought it would be lot more.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderplumb View Post
    Illegal installation. Bloke was just doing his job at the end of the day.
    I don't begrudge the bloke doing his job - just how come it's taken 18 years to be pointed out and a gas fitter did the installation originally? He offered some solutions and I will rearrange it to fit but it's a pain- had it been pointed out earlier the builder would have had to rectify it.
    David L
    "A dedicated amateur will always do a better job than a slap dash professional"

  10. #10
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    Default Are these gas bottles legally sited?

    Although not a gas fitter and having no idea if this is legal or not it seems like the regulations may have been changed and what was probably legal 18 years ago is not now

  11. #11
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    Proper Placement of LPG Gas Cylinders

    It is important that new LPG installations include the proper placement of the cylinders to meet the applicable Australian Standards.
    An additional consideration is the method of filling. Installing the cylinders so that they are suitable for either tanker filling or cylinder exchange gives your client more options and may save them money on the delivery of their LPG, with tanker filling.
    Whenever possible, the cylinders should be installed to conform to the in-situ filling requirements. In addition, please remember that tanker deliveries require an unobstructed line-of-sight between the cylinders and the tanker. In most cases this means that the cylinders will need to be on the side of the home or commercial structure and not on the backside of the building.
    Your client will appreciate this extra bit of planning and care when you site their new cylinders.

    We must design installations which will satisfy external regulations and to ensure that they do, we construct them to principles laid out in a number of Codes and Australian Standards.
    The most obvious one is AS/NZS 1596 “LP GAS STORAGE AND HANDLING” covering tank systems, components, installation of both above-ground and under-ground tanks, cylinder installation, cylinder filling setups (i.e. depots), autogas sites, operations and fire safety.
    Perhaps not so well-known, but also very important, is AS 2430.3.4, “CLASSIFICATION OF HAZARDOUS AREAS” which defines hazardous zones and distances from sources of ignition.
    An Industry Standard which we apply and the standard predominantly used by gasfitters is AS5601, “GAS INSTALLATION” which defines acceptable materials, installation methods and locations, specific appliance installation requirements and pipesizing. It covers mainly domestic and commercial installations whereas industrial installations are installed to the requirements of AS3814 “INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL GAS FIRED APPLIANCES”.
    Cylinders under and inside a building and minor storage

    Prohibited Locations
    A cylinder and its associated equipment shall not be installed in any of the following locations:
    (a) Within a building, except where permitted by AS/NZS 1596
    (b) Under a stairway
    (c) In a location with restricted access where inspection, refilling or exchange of the cylinder is restricted, obscured or hazardous to the operator.
    (d) Where nearby constructions, fences, walls or vapour barriers could prevent cross-ventilation.
    (e) Under a building, except where permitted by AS/NZS 1596.
    (f) Where the cylinder, or an incident involving the cylinder and its contents, could obstruct egress from a building.
    (g) Buried in the ground, unless the cylinder and gas installation have been specifically designed for such a location.

    Cylinders under a building supported by piers

    Where a cylinder is under a building that is supported by piers, the following requirements apply:
    (a) No part of the cylinder shall be more than 800 mm within the perimeter of the building‟s walls (see Figure 4.5 Sec 4 of AS/NZS 1596:2008).
    (b) The area between the piers shall be
    (i) open on at least three sides; or
    (ii) enclosed by a construction through which cross-ventilation can occur (eg slats or battens) on at least three sides; or
    (iii) a combination of Items (i) and (ii) above.
    (c) Where the area between the piers is walled in so as to be vapour-proof, the limitation of Item (a) still applies.

    Cylinders on a verandah

    See AS/NZS 1596:2008 Sec 4.4.7

    Cylinders in use within buildings

    In Australia, the use of LP Gas cylinders and the retention of reserve or exhausted cylinders indoors shall be avoided, wherever practicable.



  12. #12
    Golden Member GraemeCook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros
    How much did they charge to change a bottle?

    $44 plus the annual "maintenance " fee of $13.5 each - second bottle in 3 and a half years


    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    Pretty cheap I thought it would be lot more.

    I bought two full 9 kb bottles (same as Wombat2) for $52.50 each from Supagas and they come round and exchange empty bottles for $30 each. No annual "service" or rental fees. And I am in Hobart where costs are usually higher!


    Fair Winds

    Graeme

  13. #13
    Golden Member GraemeCook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wombat2 View Post
    I don't begrudge the bloke doing his job - just how come it's taken 18 years to be pointed out and a gas fitter did the installation originally? He offered some solutions and I will rearrange it to fit but it's a pain- had it been pointed out earlier the builder would have had to rectify it.

    Frustrating David, but you finally struck a competent and conscientious person. And it happened before anything catestropic happened.

    Remember, too often the regulators shoot the wounded; easier than pre-emptive action. And insurers always look for a way to deny responsibility.



    Fair Winds

    Graeme

  14. #14
    2K Club Member toooldforthis's Avatar
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    just curious as to the under stairs mentions/provisos, given that all the other requirements might be satisfied as per grantbudd's kindly provided schematic.
    given gas heavier than air.
    are they worried someone might drop a match?

    given I was hoping to put mine somewhere under these external stairs:
    p1010020.jpg

  15. #15
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    Things I have found out along the way since all this started and thanks to everyone who has contributed. The bit about under stairs has to do with escape routes in case of fire. Under the building I found a reference to "building overhang" and there is a limit of 400mm overhang only permitted. So with everything considered if I turn the bottles through 90* and bring them a little closer to the path they will less than 400mm inside the building line and exactly 1 meter from the drain. Just need to lay a concrete slab and incorporate a pole to attach the regulator then get a gas fitter to rearrange the pipe work. Oh and the bottles are 13.5Kg not 9 Kg so 50% bigger than a BBQ bottle.
    David L
    "A dedicated amateur will always do a better job than a slap dash professional"

  16. #16
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    The posted regs above say 800mm max under a verandah, I would like to know the reasons why it has failed, the only one i can obviously see is the line of sight.
    regards inter

  17. #17
    2K Club Member toooldforthis's Avatar
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    thanks for all the input on this thread. very helpful.
    I didn't realise til now there was a pdf attached to that post with the diags that says not allowed under staircases, which I assume includes the landing - back to the drawing board

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