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3 Phase in the kitchen??

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  1. #1
    wannabe woodworker
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    Default 3 Phase in the kitchen??

    Hi
    A little advice appriecated
    I have a induction hotplate I am going to install in my new kitchen, it comes configured for a single phase 45 amp supply but has an option for it to be connected 3 phase 240 volt. I would preferr to have it as a 3 phase connection as this will better distribute the load across the supply rather than wacking 45 amps on one phase.
    Anybody know of any reason/regulation (in WA) why I shouldn't do it this way , 4core and earth 2.5 orange circular and it's own 20amp 3 phase breaker should do th e job

    Cheers

  2. #2
    2x4
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    So is it a 240 or a 415 unit?



    just gone out to buy some popcorn

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    Some questions/comments;

    1. How many hotplates are there?
    2. I assume that the literature that came with the equipment specifies that it can be used with a 240v, 3 phase supply (which would substantiate what you have already said).

    3. Do you have 3 phase available in your home already?

  4. #4
    Retired Marine Engineer 1K Club Member Ashore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2x4 View Post
    So is it a 240 or a 415 unit?



    just gone out to buy some popcorn
    get us a piza while your there will you he said pulling up a chair
    Ashore




    The trouble with life is there's no background music.

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  6. #6
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    Not sure what normal practice is in the rest of the country, but we certainly wouldn't be worried about a 45 amp single phase load here in Tassie unless there were unusual circumstances.

    I'd just make sure I had the right cable size and install it as a single phase appliance unless there was a good reason not to.

  7. #7
    wannabe woodworker
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    Attached is the wiring diagram,
    The reason am going 3 phase is I have a 40amp 3 phase incoming supply (standard 430v between phases and 240v phase to nuetral) and a 20kw 3phase aircon unit installed. So was thinking to save any problems having both on at the same time I would spread the load. I put this question out there to see if my cable and breaker sizing was ok and if any special regs involved . Maybe should also look at getting my incoming supply uprated. Does anybody know the going rate for this in Perth?

    Thanks Guys.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #8
    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    Peter,

    On the face of it you'll almost certainly have to use the 3-phase connection as single phase will be 45A which exceeds your existing 40A per phase.

    It's then a question of how much power you have left after the A/C and whatever else you have connected. Is the A/C 20kW input or 20kW output? You may still need the three-phase upgraded as well.

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    notanapprentice dan76's Avatar
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    i am in qld , but i see no reason from here why you couldnt get your sparkie to hook it up across 3 phases.

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    Golden Member GraemeCook's Avatar
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    Wow, if you go three-phase you will also be able to set up a really good jointer in the kitchen!

    Have you checked the regs in WA? In Tas you cannot run a stove off a heat pump circuit.

    Cheers

    Graeme

  11. #11
    Slow but rough Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeCook View Post
    Wow, if you go three-phase you will also be able to set up a really good jointer in the kitchen!
    Not to mention a industrial welder

  12. #12
    2x4
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    You may be OK. You say you have a 40A main switch, but we need to know the incoming cable size to be of any more help. eg.6mm...10mm?


    "Anybody know of any reason/regulation (in WA) why I shouldn't do it this way , 4core and earth 2.5 orange circular and it's own 20amp 3 phase breaker should do th e job."

    Breaker is correct size for the cable

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeCook View Post
    Have you checked the regs in WA? In Tas you cannot run a stove off a heat pump circuit.
    Reason for this in Tas is that air-conditioners (and all wired-in heaters and continuous hot water heaters) are separately metered at a different rate to electricity used for lights, power etc. Connecting anything else to that circuit would be paying the wrong rate for electricity as well as any technical issues with the wiring.

    I'm pretty sure that in all the other states everything other than off-peak is on the one meter so this wouldn't be an issue?

    To the original question, now it makes some sense and I can't see a reason not to connect it to 3 phase. It sounds like it may involve significant neutral current when running though so make sure all the wiring is the right size. I'm guessing it's still running as single phase with just the different hot plates spread across different phases, hence it won't be balanced as such when only one or two plates are in use. That's just a guess however.

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    2K Club Member seriph1's Avatar
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    The unit is almost certainly German, or at least European. 380 Volt 3 phase was in common usage in Germany for years but is no longer used as much these days. I have a 380/240 Volt Imperial (Miele) Pressure Steam Oven here to go into our kitchen. I feel pretty sure that when I bought it, I was told I could hook it up to single phase 240 by using a similar configuration that is shown in your diagram. I have the manuals with it but can't get to it easily to verify.

    Am I right in thinking your cooktop is going to potentially draw over 9 kilowatts? If so, am I also right in thinking this is a large amount of power to draw? The units I looked at on behalf of clients who only had electric in their kitchens topped out at <7kW.
    Steve
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    2K Club Member seriph1's Avatar
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    Just did some further research on induction cooktops - didn't realise they used more power than regular electric ..... ouch!
    Steve
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    2x4
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    This is getting interesting.

    Unbalanced neutrals?

    Surely every three phase install has unbanced neutrals.
    Lights , gpos, hwu. ac, pumps, and all the 415v kit floating around.

    Sure, the sparky tries to distribute load evenly across the three phases, but at the end of the day..........

    Might need an electrical engineer to explain this one. But lets make sure he doesnt wire his house

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2x4 View Post
    This is getting interesting.

    Unbalanced neutrals?

    Surely every three phase install has unbanced neutrals.
    Lights , gpos, hwu. ac, pumps, and all the 415v kit floating around.

    Sure, the sparky tries to distribute load evenly across the three phases, but at the end of the day..........
    I was thinking specifically about the wiring to the cook top rather than the whole house. I'm not sure, but I'm assuming that it's just a number of single phase loads (one per hot plate) that would be spread across the 3 phases. If that's the case then depending on what combination of plates are on the neutral current will at times be significant.

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    2x4
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    I was thinking specifically about the wiring to the cook top rather than the whole house
    Yeah, I'm with ya, but just thinking on a bigger scale.(the house/building being the appliance with unbalanced neutral).....does that make sense?

    It just depends on how the oven is wired, both internally and how the sparky or home owner hooks it up.


    or home owner hooks it up.
    oops,did I just write that


    Who knows, maybe the hot plates/ griller/and oven could each be on a different phase,
    with probably similar kw ratings for each bank , so to speak.

    For the vendor to advise that the appliance can be hooked up to either 240 or 415 you would hope this is the case.

    Maximum demand for ovens is 50% isnt it, or am I just making that up

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    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    I'm not sure, but I'm assuming that it's just a number of single phase loads (one per hot plate) that would be spread across the 3 phases. If that's the case then depending on what combination of plates are on the neutral current will at times be significant.
    The very worst the neutral current will occur when only one phase is being used. When more than one phase is being used, the neutral current will drop as the "return" will actually be via the other phases as well. If the 3-phase is balanced the neutral current will be zero.

  20. #20
    Golden Member nev25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    The very worst the neutral current will occur when only one phase is being used. When more than one phase is being used, the neutral current will drop as the "return" will actually be via the other phases as well. If the 3-phase is balanced the neutral current will be zero.
    And this will accure as not all the hotplates will be used at once

    But if the appliance is going to be wired in 2.5mm2 hotplates will get hotter from the house fire

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    2K Club Member chrisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nev25 View Post
    But if the appliance is going to be wired in 2.5mm2 hotplates will get hotter from the house fire
    Nev,

    If it is connected to a 3-phase supply with about 15A/phase, 2.5mm2 will be fine - even for the neutral

    So it would seem, as you stated in another thread, that "there is a big difference between knowing and doing"

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    Golden Member nev25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
    Nev,

    If it is connected to a 3-phase supply with about 15A/phase,
    Is it????

  23. #23
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    Thanks Guys

    Chrisp: that is my thinking approx 15a per phase is much more preferable than 45a on one and 2.5mm should handle it nicely

    Serph: It is a Kleenmaid 5 ring induction cooktop, pulls 11kw, yes I too didn't reliase how much power they use (hopefully it's more power less time as they are suppose to cook faster)

    2x4: unsure of the incoming cable size, just states on the meter 4 wire 40A

  24. #24
    2K Club Member seriph1's Avatar
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    Aaah Kleenmaid, OK. More than likely it is a De Dietrich or Brandt OEM.
    Steve
    Kilmore (Melbourne-ish)
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    ....catchy phrase here

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Jones View Post
    Hi
    A little advice appriecated
    I have a induction hotplate I am going to install in my new kitchen, it comes configured for a single phase 45 amp supply but has an option for it to be connected 3 phase 240 volt. I would preferr to have it as a 3 phase connection as this will better distribute the load across the supply rather than wacking 45 amps on one phase.
    Anybody know of any reason/regulation (in WA) why I shouldn't do it this way , 4core and earth 2.5 orange circular and it's own 20amp 3 phase breaker should do th e job

    Cheers
    I'd think Western Power would know for sure, as would any licensed sparky.

  26. #26
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    Default Kleenmaid wiring specs.

    I went to the Kleenmaid website & got some info. I assume that you have the ICK90X 900mm Induction Cooktop wtih S/S Frame.

    http://www.kleenmaid.com/care/
    Click on "Cooking" & then "Cooktops".

    The below link to the PDF is for a number of induction cooktops, including the ICK90X. Please note that the ICK90X is the only cooktop that mentions Australian Standards & does not include cable colours. The other connection diags refer to NEC (American) wiring colour codes. Australia does not use American wiring colour codes.
    See page 12/23 as shown on the PDF reader (not on the document pages).

    http://www.kleenmaid.com/care/COOKTO...80X_ICK90X.pdf

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