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  1. #1
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    Default 4 terminals 3 wires

    Hola all! I have 3 wires hanging out of my ceiling longing to be attached to Clipsal 530 series terminal. Of the 4 terminals 1 is marked (earthGREEN WIRE) I assume. Another is marked L (loop???) Ceiling wires are green, red & black. What goes where? Ta 4 your time.

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    Oh the old dreaded three wire 4 terminals at least it is better than the 4 or more wires three terminals.

    You will not find qualified people giving you advise as you must be qualified to do this type of work anywhere in Australia. I'm sure you could get this information at the Google university. Most electricians if they knew you would give you this advise so you could do it yourself but as this is a public forum I will have to decline to answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    Oh the old dreaded three wire 4 terminals at least it is better than the 4 or more wires three terminals.

    You will not find qualified people giving you advise as you must be qualified to do this type of work anywhere in Australia. I'm sure you could get this information at the Google university. Most electricians if they knew you would give you this advise so you could do it yourself but as this is a public forum I will have to decline to answer.
    Hi
    Ditto
    One mistake & something nasty could happen

    PeterQ

  4. #4
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    Read the booklet linked to in my signature block and you should be able to work it out.

    There are a few things you need to be aware of (nice tight connections, not nicking the wire, etc etc etc) which it details.

    WARNING - The average Australian is simply too stupid to do electrical work safely, so you are not allowed to do it yourself. Only Americans, Brits and NZ'er's (and many, many other countries) are smart enough. Oh, and those 12 year old scouts in France and Denmark who get merit badges in mains electricity. Simply find your nearest 12 year old French scout and get him to do it for you (once he successfully completes his four year apprenticeship here, that is).

    Yes, the L terminal is the Loop terminal; it does not connect to anything in the fitting and is just there to enable (qualified electricians only OMG!!!!!) to make other connections at the fitting.

    Green is the earth terminal, and connects to the earth wire.

    Red wires are typically the active (live) connection, and the black wire is neutral. They connect (in no particular order) to the other two terminals in that style of fitting.
    DIY electrical house wiring details suitable for Australia - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

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    Hi Random
    I've noticed that you always provide an answer to questions like this, but answers from other forums members (and I can only assume they are sparkies) are a bit of hit and miss, at times they are quite reasonable and other times the only answer is dire warnings of pestilence and eternal damnation, I can't quite figure out why this is so, maybe it is the way the question is asked, I'm also surprised at the number of times there is a discussion amongst sparkies on how job should be done , what size wire to use what size circuit breaker etc. I would have thought if they are all licensed then there should be no discussion, being licensed they should all know, if they don't then what are they doing with a license. At times I think that if a fairly simple question needs to asked (as in this case) then perhaps the person shouldn't be doing it.

    Illegal as it may be I do agree with your sentiments, and at times find some of the posts quite insulting in that if you aren't an electrician then you are immediatly labeled as a law breaking nincompoop.

    In my job I need to keep abreast of changes in rules and regulations for both plumbing and electrical work, and am on the email list of a SA GOV publication called Regulation Roundup, this publication lists reported electrocutions and also those fined for carrying out illegal or non compliant work. There is very little reference if ever to the DIYer or work that has been done by DYIers, ignoring faulty electrical equipment, almost all reported electocutions are to electricians and caused by electricians.

    You mention 12 yr olds, back 50yrs or so ago our neighbour, a war widow slipped off a chair while changing a light bulb, the batten came away in her hand, faced with a bunch of wires hanging out of the ceiling and the prospect of no light in the kitchen she came to me. As a ten yr old I had just built my first superheterodyne radio so it seemed to her I was the best candidate for the job, always eager to help I initially expected to find two wires but instead found a number of red, black and white wires, half an hour later I had it figured and fixed and scored a glass of her famous ginger beer.

    Electrical work isn't rocket science but it is breaking the law for a non licensed person to do, but then who doesn't break the law every now and again , speeding, using a mobile phone while driving, sneaking home the backway to avoid the booze bus, we are probably all guilty at times and there is really no difference. I doubt things will change and in fact in this litigious world it may even get worse, I heard that electricians may need to be paired with an observer in the future.

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    1K Club Member Pulse's Avatar
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    We've had these arguments over and over again here at least from 2005. The fact is people who ask here will diy, they have already taken off the old fitting and been to bunnings to get a new one. They are staring at the wires with an uninsulated screwdriver in hand on an aluminium ladder with their 6yo apprentice at the switchboard. They will either install it unsafely without our help or safely with our help. I do admit simple questions are a worry but it has been said the only stupid question is the one that isn 't asked.

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    1K Club Member Random Username's Avatar
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    If sparkies get paired with an observer/safety person, I think you'd just about wipe out small domestic work. People find the cost of getting a sparkie too much now for minor jobs, let alone if it's double the price.

    So wait....what????.....these are trained professionals, with both book and practical learning under their belt and a legal monopoly.....are they still so poor at their job they need someone watching their every move to make sure they don't take dangerous short cuts??
    DIY electrical house wiring details suitable for Australia - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

  8. #8
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    I don't have a problem with DIY electrical so long as when you sell your house that it is stated in the contract that you
    have modified or repaired the wiring your self and will make good any work that is not up to standard

  9. #9
    1K Club Member Random Username's Avatar
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    It's a pity you don't get a similar promise from licensed tradesmen to bring their work up to scratch...
    DIY electrical house wiring details suitable for Australia - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Username View Post
    It's a pity you don't get a similar promise from licensed tradesmen to bring their work up to scratch...
    Licensed tradies should be doing work that is up to scratch. If you let them get away with it, you are the fool. If ya know what to look for, always pull someone up on it.

    As for the original question. My answer is call a sparky. If you need to ask that question, you shouldnt be going anywhere near it

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian7886 View Post
    Licensed tradies should be doing work that is up to scratch. If you let them get away with it, you are the fool. If ya know what to look for, always pull someone up on it.
    That's the thing. How does a non-sparkie know what a good job looks like?

    Gotta ask questions to get the knowledge so that when you say "Dude, that power point is totally too close to the sink' and you get a "Thats ok, its a protected circuit so it doesn't matter," reply, you can come back with 'It doesn't say anything about exceptions for RDC protected circuits in wet areas in my copy of AS3000'.
    DIY electrical house wiring details suitable for Australia - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian7886 View Post
    As for the original question. My answer is call a sparky. If you need to ask that question, you shouldnt be going anywhere near it
    My thoughts exactly
    Regards Bradford

  13. #13
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    Good point Random... many of the questions asked here by non electricians are often met with a response along the lines of... "Sound a like this bloke doesn't know what he's doing and he's trying to get free advice, remember it's illegal to do this work yourself, so I'm not going to tell you the answer"... Yet on the other hand we're somehow supposed to pull up sparkies on poor work - but how can we know if we're always being rebuffed?

    Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

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    Most times you can't see what a sparky has done apart from the obvious, a piece of conduit, a light switch, you flick the switch a light comes on it all seems ok, so it's not that easy to pull him up over it.
    I had questionable work done a sparky which didn't come to light until we had a RCD fitted some 7 years later. The work done was probably safe, however it was non compliant, the sparky that tracked down the problem immediately though I had done the work. I was p!$$ed off as not only had I paid for the work, I knew the guy that did it and I got the blame.

    Just because someone wears a suit to work doesn't make them technically inept, given the right info they will do just as good a job as most tradesmen.

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    Hi
    There is a simple answer for those Diyers who believe they can do the job
    Obtain the relavent Standards ,study them carefully, when you believe you have worked it all out ,go ahead
    Then HOPE you did undertstand the whys & got it all right.
    You may just do a better job than some "electricians"because like all trades & professions there are nohopers!
    But if you get it wrong, well??????????????

    PeterQ

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    Sorry guys but I read this post and had to add a story.

    Firstly I want to say that: I think the important thing is to practice a little common sense and also know your limits. I have to admit having a history of doing very basic DIY work I considered within my understanding and abilities including very simple electrical work, we all have done something like that. I also accept that if I stuff up well it my backside on the line.


    I was previously replacing a light fitting (basic commonsense stuff), Got to the see wires stuffed up in the ceiling cavity and dear God if it was not the biggest balls up you had ever seen in your life, spaghetti mixed with noodles is still too nice a description. The apartments were owner/builder built and the owner was an old sparky from Spain (licenced in NSW), somehow that wiring job was his standard of work.

    I have to admit I was not even game to mess with it and the missus called a licenced electrical company in inner west Sydney. When I got back I was met with the wife to be, arguing with a "sparky" who was up a non insulated aluminium ladder in thongs - he was using an insulated screwdriver, I will give him that. Mains power was on but he had "ensured the lights were isloated" ?

    I said that I was not happy with safety standards and his reply was "Bro I just came from Ashfield Pool, it's a saturday and it's a piece of P#@$ job bro, relax I am licenced and insured".

    End result he managed to trip the power supply for 6 units (had to call strata and get access to some mains board, 2 hours later), The Sparky also managed to shock/electocute himself 3 times, guess he did not account that the inline exhaust fan was wired in seperately but still connected to the circuits of powerpoints and the lights.


    The Sparky's boss who arrived after I blasted him over the phone was a brilliant bloke, capable, knowledgeable and straight forward who managed to sort the issues out including turning off the mains supply. The other twit was an actual licenced joke, you have to worry about these RTO companies certifying people after a chat.



    Have a good one Jas

  17. #17
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    What annoys me about some trades like electrical and plumbing...the fast easy buck some want...as I say, some! They are capable of doing the layout and fitting well but with little regard when it comes to accuracy and finish. I have seen electricians forget where in the wall things are, end up ripping the walls apart (...waste usually fudged in the bill!). Measurements wrong and banging things apart to make things fit or roughly eyeing off the centre of a room for a light fitting. Breaking framework and weakening a structure to squeeze in a backplate or something else, the list goes on. Maybe other observers required as well. Nuts!

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    HI YEs
    Like all trades & proffesions , some very good ,some just good, AND SOME have no idea OR just do not care
    .
    Some have such limited experience , actual knowledge, that it can be frightening to think they are out there


    PeterQ .

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtrack123 View Post
    HI YEs
    Like all trades & proffesions , some very good ,some just good, AND SOME have no idea OR just do not care
    .
    Some have such limited experience , actual knowledge, that it can be frightening to think they are out there


    PeterQ .
    Have to agree with you 100% Oldtrack. There is good and bad in all jobs

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason01 View Post
    End result he managed to trip the power supply for 6 units (had to call strata and get access to some mains board, 2 hours later), The Sparky also managed to shock/electocute himself 3 times, guess he did not account that the inline exhaust fan was wired in seperately but still connected to the circuits of powerpoints and the lights.
    I read this post and started to have some doubts when I got this paragraph.

    Firstly it would be of some interest as to how he could trip the supply to 6 units while working on one unit.

    Secondly you can only get electrocuted once and once only. As for shocks I have never ever seen a person who when being hurt would then expose themselves to being hurt again. I can assure you that an electric shock hurts and you are shaken for some minutes after and you will turn everything off well beyond the circuit you are working on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    What annoys me about some trades like electrical and plumbing...the fast easy buck some want...as I say, some! They are capable of doing the layout and fitting well but with little regard when it comes to accuracy and finish. I have seen electricians forget where in the wall things are, end up ripping the walls apart (...waste usually fudged in the bill!). Measurements wrong and banging things apart to make things fit or roughly eyeing off the centre of a room for a light fitting. Breaking framework and weakening a structure to squeeze in a backplate or something else, the list goes on. Maybe other observers required as well. Nuts!
    A bit harsh on the electrical and plumbing trades and you leave out the gyprock fixers as they are the cause of a lot of problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    I read this post and started to have some doubts when I got this paragraph.

    Firstly it would be of some interest as to how he could trip the supply to 6 units while working on one unit.

    Secondly you can only get electrocuted once an once only. As for shocks I have never ever seen a person who when being hurt would then expose themselves to being hurt again. I can assure you that an electric shock hurts and you are shaken for some minutes after and you will turn everything off well beyond the circuit you are working on.
    Fair call mate and I will try to explain as best as I can.


    Firstly, the shock/electrocute comment was this sparky getting "zapped" for want of the more correct terminolgy and then swearing his head off infront of my missus 3 times. My question to him at the time was " why the F, would you not switch off the main?". Sorry if the terminolgy i used may have been misleading or confusing - was not the intent.

    *Happy for you to advise me what the correct term is for touching a live electrical wire and having and adverse result, because I thought it was a shock or electrocute? edit: actually thanks Bros, I have now educated myself to the understanding of electrocution versus mild electric shock. Obviously I am not a qualified electrician.

    Secondly as to what mild electric shock feels like well I can admit that I know exactly what it feels like when your muscles spasm and clamp down on the inside of dishwasher that I was working on because I could not afford a repair guy at that time. I also clearly remember crawling out of the kitchen on my hands and knees feeling like I had been kicked in the stomach, groin and my heart racing.

    *Yes I learned a valuable lesson in common sense and better still learned the value of humility.

    Thirdly as to how he tripped the other apartments supply, you have me there all I know is something shorted ( he said it was the inline exctractor that "fused", * a claim later denied by his boss? all lights were out in our unit the common area stairwell as well units 8 +10 also Strata later advised us it was 6 units affected?

    A key to some electrical system in the comon garage had to be obtained from strata, and a new circuit breaker? or something was on call at TLE for $210 I think, Alas it was not needed as this thing in the garage was tripped and not stuffed or something like that?

    I can understand you may have issues with the story Bros but unfortunately that is exactly what occured and I can appreciate your defence of sparky's may be you are one who knows. As I said the young bloke that turned up was useless and reckless, his old man I have complete respect for and he also did a few other jobs for us over the years.

    Dumping cr*p on people/tradies for no good reason is not something I do buddy. Your opinion however is your own.

    Regards

    Jason
    Last edited by Jason01; 8th Jan 2014 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Self Education

  23. #23
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    Its easy to blame people when you only have one side of the story.

    How do you know if the fault wasn't there before and this poor bloke fell into another persons poor work or a DIY's. His aluminium ladder is not the best to use but as far as I know not illegal but I could be corrected there.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason01 View Post
    The apartments were owner/builder built and the owner was an old sparky from Spain (licenced in NSW)
    How old are these apartments and did you buy it from this owner/builder sparky?
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

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    1K Club Member Random Username's Avatar
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    Conductive ladders generally breach local electrical authority, code of practice or site OHS regulations.
    DIY electrical house wiring details suitable for Australia - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

  26. #26
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    Like I have said before... although now "retired"' I do occasional work for those who are smart enough to find me... usually emergency stuff for R.E agents when the No 1 or No 2 electrician isn't available (at the pub??). So, I see the DIY horror stories that cause the problems in the first place (like turn off the bathroom light and the fridge RCD drops out... a prize for the nearest correct answer!). Anyhow, the post re inaccurate positioning of lights in the middle of the room prompted my recollection of a recent job where the apprentice was very accurate, and even cut through the ceiling rafter to ensure that a downlight was dead centre. Hmm, unhappy customer with a sagging ceiling (but at least the light was centred and connected correctly). Yep, every trade has a few who can't think outside the square. The point of all this ... "if they were as good as you want them to be, you would be working for them rather than them working for you". Most tradies do get it right even if it isn't the way you would do it. IMO it is the DIY with a little bit of knowledge (red to red, black to black, that should work!) that creates the potential dangerous situation. Let the debate continue.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkyt View Post
    IMO it is the DIY with a little bit of knowledge (red to red, black to black, that should work!) that creates the potential dangerous situation. Let the debate continue.
    For me, house wiring is easy enough to understand, but as you correctly point out, "red to red etc", it would concern me greatly to encourage someone to do their own electrical, or in the context here, when asking what the wires mean.

  28. #28
    1K Club Member Random Username's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion that there's two types of electrical DIY-ers; the ones who will do whatever they want (two-core bell wire, uninsulated joins, wrong polarity on connections and so on) because 'it works now, dunnit?' and the ones who will do things the right way, if they have a source of information other than US-centric sites that will teach them the right way; hence my sig link to a resource specifically aimed at same-electrical-code-as-us DIY'ers prepared by a national electricity authority.

    I feel that the 'do whatever' type typically won't visit a forum like this - they already know what they need to do as well as how they are doing it and no-one can show them any better. That leaves the people who want to do it correctly, for whom, for whatever reason, 'get a sparky' is not an answer they will consider. It's better to give them a resource that shows how it is done to AS/NZS standard rather than them making a best guess based on their existing knowledge.
    DIY electrical house wiring details suitable for Australia - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedford View Post
    How old are these apartments and did you buy it from this owner/builder sparky?
    Hi Bedford,

    To memory the units are about 10-14 years old. We did buy direct off the owner/builder as we had been renting it from his agents for a while. Previously The old bloke always came and carried out any work electrical work for the cost of parts/wires etc and a cup of coffee plus biscuits and a chat. He was a nice guy but after he passed I got to see the wiring first hand.


    Due to the apartments age there was no longer a warranty on it, not a great thing for the owners as there was a big water proofing/ concrete spalling? issue developing

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    Its easy to blame people when you only have one side of the story.

    How do you know if the fault wasn't there before and this poor bloke fell into another persons poor work or a DIY's. His aluminium ladder is not the best to use but as far as I know not illegal but I could be corrected there.
    Bros your comment is fair about falling into another persons poor work and I don't want this topic to turn into an apparent drumming of young tradies/apprentices in fact I am certain a lot of us have been in an apprenticeship at some point.

    I agree with you. The young sparky was working on a job which was poor quality/confusing and I personally doubt complied with NSW standards BUT none of that was his fault -agreed.

    I do however have a major issue as the homeowner, when a "licenced/qualified" tradesman disregards the basic safety standards in order to get back to the pool quicker. I also agree there are always two sides to any story and the sparky may be right in what he did, who knows?
    What I do know though, is that as homeowners we have a duty of care /legal obligation to any person on our property forced upon us ( that includes guests, trades and even trespassers as much as we all disagree with that).

    My issue about the sparky was his disgregard for his own and others safety as a licenced electrician. Would you really leave the mains on while you re-wire a complete mess while not insulated/protected? Personally I wouldn't and the first thing his father did was lock out the power when he turned up and set up an insulated ladder.


    If I pay someone for a job I want it done safely and done right, I am sure you would expect the same.

    Cheers

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason01 View Post
    What I do know though, is that as homeowners we have a duty of care /legal obligation to any person on our property forced upon us ( that includes guests, trades and even trespassers as much as we all disagree with that).
    In Queensland and I assume in other states the occupier of a domestic residence is exempt from being a workplace unless it is being used to conduct a business.

    I believe the occupier has some duties that are in their control eg lock up the dogs and letting the tradie know if the house is full of white ant or the floor is rotten where he is going to put his ladder but the tradie and his employer (if an employee) must exercise care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    In Queensland and I assume in other states the occupier of a domestic residence is exempt from being a workplace unless it is being used to conduct a business.

    I believe the occupier has some duties that are in their control eg lock up the dogs and letting the tradie know if the house is full of white ant or the floor is rotten where he is going to put his ladder but the tradie and his employer (if an employee) must exercise care.
    That is a good commonsense approach the Queenslanders have there, maybe that is why they have continue to win the State of Origin series. Not wrapped up in "nanny state" legislation.

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