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Attaching a Powerpoint

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  1. #1
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    Default Attaching a Powerpoint

    Doing some work on the floors and skirting at the moment. I had to take off the powerpoints in 5 spots. I turned the mains power off when I did this - now left with exposed wires.

    I could probably have a crack at putting them back - I know it seems dead simple but I am just paranoid about electricuting myself.

    Is it advisable to get a sparky to do this? It's probably about a 5 minute job really.

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
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    Being a sparky, having seen the results of some "home wiring" and having had a few decent jolts I advise you to spend a few dollars and get it done properly.

    Dead is dead.

  3. #3
    Senior Stinkologist Sir Stinkalot's Avatar
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    I would get a sparkie even for the simple jobs now .....

    I tried to replace some light fittings ... most seemed to work ok as they turned off and on with the correct switch.

    When it came to the laundry, outside light and toilet it was all buggered up and I needed to turn off the laundry, to turn on the outside light which would let me turn on the toilet.

    After a day of trying different combinations I finally called in the expert.
    As it turns out I had stuffed up the combinations and made the light fittings active themselves :eek: even the ones that seemed to work correctly. It would have been a big zap the first time I changes globes.

    Got a sparkie in who fixed the laundry, toilet and exterior lights in about 10 minutes, then he fixed the rest of the active lights.

    Very cheap .... very safe.

    IF YOU ARE NOT SURE .... DONT PLAY WITH WIRES.

    ..... now plumbing ..... thats a different story
    Licence to drill!

  4. #4
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    Do you have a safety device?

    I have had to do some stuff in the past out of real need and no sparkies available.



    With Powerpoints, it is hard to go wrong, the back is colour coded to match the wires. Red to the red connector(A), black to black(N) and yellow/green to (E).

    I wouldn't do anything if there wasn't a safety device! Also double check with a multi-meter that the power is off.

    The other complication with powerpoints is that there are often cascading connections, where one powerpoint is used to feed others and so.

    Interestingly enough, I'd say after renovating my house the most suspect wiring is that done by licensed electricians - sad really, they come in and want to get everything done in 10 minutes to get to the next job.

    As indicated by the post above...lights are a little more complicated because:
    a. they are generally not earthed.
    b. you might have one light connected to more than one switch.
    c. you may have (as per powerpoint) have one switch acting as a junction for another (which is probably what went wrong in the above).
    d. a Lot let space for the cables to connect into.....for that reason the trend seems to be that lights have at the switch end all the black (N) terminated in a terminating cap and then taped. ( as is the case with lighting earths).

    Powerpoints are very straight forward.
    1. Make sure if your mains are off.
    2. Test that your mains are off...
    3. Use you're multi-meter....
    4. If you are not comfortable then don't do,,,,

  5. #5
    1K Club Member Pulse's Avatar
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    I think you have a better chance of being electrocuted if you don't put the powerpoints back. Need to cover those exposed wires you see....

    On a serious note I agree with spartan, pretty straight forward, just connect them back like they were...

    Cheers
    Pulse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stinkalot
    I would get a sparkie even for the simple jobs now .....

    I tried to replace some light fittings ... most seemed to work ok as they turned off and on with the correct switch.

    When it came to the laundry, outside light and toilet it was all buggered up and I needed to turn off the laundry, to turn on the outside light which would let me turn on the toilet.
    Ahhhhhh, Stinky.
    Ya gave me a good laugh after a hard day at the orifice....

    Al

  7. #7
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    I just need to get them temporarily covered again. Not getting new skirting etc put in for a few weeks so I just wanted them installed temporarily.

    We aren't living in the house but with the powerpoint wires exposed, I have the mains power off. I don't want to turn it back until the wires are reconnected, but I am going to need power shortly.

    We do have a safety switch by the way.

    One sparky quoted $100 just to temporarily reattach 5 powerpoints - seemed like money down the drain.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by vGolfer
    Doing some work on the floors and skirting at the moment. I had to take off the powerpoints in 5 spots. I turned the mains power off when I did this - now left with exposed wires.
    If you were able to take them of then you would also be able to put them back the same way.

    If not sure how the wires go, most powerpoints have the colours marked on them or you can have a look at another one.


    Peter.

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    It may sound as if I am attempting to protect my fellow trade, but being illegal to work unlicenced (thus voiding any insurance claim against any wiring fault in the house and having the potential to kill somebody), wouldn't you feel bloody awful if you advised somebody to do some electrical work without knowing what tools they had, whether they terminated correctly, tested the voltages with a multimeter etc. and something happened.

    I say shop around and get it done properly. If I lived near by I would do it for nothing, for at least my peace of mind.

    Spartan I hope you don't tar all sparkies with the same brush.

    Cheers,
    Mat

  10. #10
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    Wassy, no not all! There are obivously some very good ones out...I'm sure you are one of those...I have had a good one do some work for me....mainly all the stuff connected to my board and three phase stuff...which I wouldn't touch that in a million years. The problem is that the good ones are busy, usually real busy. I guess its about knowing your limitations and not crossing them.


    In fact it was a good sparky who told me about the problems that I had, and told me stuff like....'see that..well its safe...but not real professional, and its a short cut etc..'

    I'm sure you do see heaps of dodgy stuff. I know that there is also some stuff that the previous owner of my house must have done, i.e., using non fixed wiring...extension cords connected to fixed outlets....Interestingly if I had not put in some cat5e I would have never known. If there was a fire etc, I think I could have made a very good case that said...'hey there have been three other owners of my place,,,anyone of them could have done that.

    Building inspections don't comment on that stuff either - they specifically exclude it.

    I accept your point about not knowing the capabilities/tools etc of others.

    It is interesting though in the UK and the US...that the average joe can do basic home electrical work..

    cheers!
    Last edited by spartan; 7th Sep 2005 at 07:11 PM. Reason: speeling

  11. #11
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    don't be silly
    why don't you sell your dust extractors and tie a hankie round your head
    mate find yourself a good tradesman ( i know there hard to find but try )
    once you do you'll be happy especially if your undertaking ongoing renos
    if in doubt ring your local branch of the electrical contractors asc.
    A SAFE SITE IS A HAPPY SITE

  12. #12
    Member rick_rine's Avatar
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    Blue = neutral
    Brown = Active
    Green = Earth


    Get an electrician . As stated before by a wise poster , dead is dead .
    Even to get a shock will most likley not kill you but there is a small chance it can put your heart out of rythm .

    Rick
    Many times burnt
    hate it .

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_rine
    Blue = neutral
    Brown = Active
    Green = Earth

    :confused: :confused: :confused:

    We're talking of fixed wiring not the cords on an appliance, so Red is Active, Black is Neutral and Yellow/Green is Earth.


    Peter.

  14. #14
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    If it's only a temporary cover-up of exposed wiring, what about taping up the wires - each wire individually taped of course, not in bundles of the three wires. Then get the electrician in to reconnect power points when you have finished the skirtings.

    Sparkies might like to comment.

  15. #15
    Northernmost member in Oz Jack E's Avatar
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    Or go to your local electrical supplier and buy some BP connectors. Screw them on to the individual wires and tape them up. They are then insulated from you and each other allowing you to turn the mains back on. Then have the outlets re connected by a licensed sparky when your skirting is done.

    BTW, I am a sparky
    "There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

  16. #16
    2 kids, no time Wildman's Avatar
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    Just stick them back on, simple job. Technically illegal in Australia due to Australia Pussy Law number 49 but it never stopped me. I did an entire house from main switch onwards including RCD's and I am no sparky. Had a friendly sparky check it 4 years later before I sold the house and he offered me a job. Reckons it was probably closer to the standards than most jobs out there with one exception, I drove the earth spike too far into the ground (150mm exposed please says mr standards man not 100mm). If you want a copy of the wiring standards, let me know. Check everything with a multimeter before you start, and again before you touch it. Use proper wiring, connectors and install to the standard and it is fine. It is not rocket science (no offence to sparkys), use your head and you will be fine. If you have no idea, obviously dont touch it.

    I dont agree with people going the hack then selling up straight away, but if you are going to stay in the house, then it is your responsibility to get it right, and live (or otherwise) with the consequences if you dont.

    I am not a moron and have a very broad skillset and far bigger mortgage than can be justified by a 4 year apprenticeship, at apprentice wages, in anything that supposedly needs one. I also have a very short attention span when it comes to careers, my current 5 years in IT is a record for me and I have worked as a concretor, truck driver, call centre manager, mechanic, professional diver, IT manager, internet software developer and I am a qualified Civil Engineer and still in my early 30's. Why is 4 years required to be "qualified". What about skills based qualifications? I would take time off work if I could sit a set of technical skills based tests and knowledge exams to be able to legally do my own electrical work, building, plumbing, gas fitting, air conditioner installations etc that I do myself anyway.

    OK, enough of my rant about the world trying to "save me from myself"......again.

    Cheers
    Ben
    My glue tastes funny.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    Or go to your local electrical supplier and buy some BP connectors. Screw them on to the individual wires and tape them up. They are then insulated from you and each other allowing you to turn the mains back on. Then have the outlets re connected by a licensed sparky when your skirting is done.

    BTW, I am a sparky
    That sounds like a good idea. I just want to be able to turn the mains back on without the fear of bloody exposed wires. I have had the power off for the past few days because of this.

    BTW, I am not planning on reconecting them permanently myself. When it gets to that stage I will definitely be getting some professional help.

    Cheers guys

  18. #18
    Northernmost member in Oz Jack E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildman
    Why is 4 years required to be "qualified". What about skills based qualifications? I would take time off work if I could sit a set of technical skills based tests and knowledge exams to be able to legally do my own electrical work, building, plumbing, gas fitting, air conditioner installations etc that I do myself anyway.
    It takes four years to become qualified because there is alot more to trades than the small tasks you refer to.
    A sparky wiring a house or a fridgy installing a small domestic A/C is like a woodworker being able to glue a butt joint together.
    You have referred to the simplest of tasks.
    As a sparky I agree that wiring a house is simple, you could train a monkey to do it. The question is, you may be able to wire an RCD in accordance with the regulations but do you know why it is done that way and how the device works, what will go wrong or work differently if you stray from the regs.
    You may be able to wire a house but how would you go programming a PLC, are you any good at vector analysis, what do you know about a VSD driving an 11000V 12 mega Watt motor that moves 800 tonne?
    As far as the fridgy work goes, how are you on the procedures and regs there, do you know anything about pressures, boiling points, heat loading, enthalpy?

    Anybody with a bit of nouse can make something work.
    The key is making something work efficiently, effectively and economically.

    Cheers, Jack
    "There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

  19. #19
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    A well written reply, thanks Jack.


    Cheers,
    Mat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    It takes four years to become qualified because there is alot more to trades than the small tasks you refer to.
    A sparky wiring a house or a fridgy installing a small domestic A/C is like a woodworker being able to glue a butt joint together.
    You have referred to the simplest of tasks.
    As a sparky I agree that wiring a house is simple, you could train a monkey to do it. The question is, you may be able to wire an RCD in accordance with the regulations but do you know why it is done that way and how the device works, what will go wrong or work differently if you stray from the regs.
    You may be able to wire a house but how would you go programming a PLC, are you any good at vector analysis, what do you know about a VSD driving an 11000V 12 mega Watt motor that moves 800 tonne?
    As far as the fridgy work goes, how are you on the procedures and regs there, do you know anything about pressures, boiling points, heat loading, enthalpy?

    Anybody with a bit of nouse can make something work.
    The key is making something work efficiently, effectively and economically.

    Cheers, Jack

    Yes, very well written, but we are talking about replacing some power points that he took of , which incidently is already illegal, not programming a plc or the other things.

    As you said that we can train monkeys ( sorry Zed ) to do house wiring so surely replacing power points doesn't need a sparky.


    Peter.

  21. #21
    Northernmost member in Oz Jack E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturdee
    Yes, very well written, but we are talking about replacing some power points that he took of , which incidently is already illegal, not programming a plc or the other things.

    As you said that we can train monkeys ( sorry Zed ) to do house wiring so surely replacing power points doesn't need a sparky.
    My reply was an answer to the question "why is four years required to be qualified?"

    I am not really fussed if somebody does their own electrical work. I do alot of things around my house which also require qualifications such as plumbing so I am just as guilty.

    Do these people that do their own "simple" wiring then carry out the required testing before re-energising the circuit, such as polarity, earth resistance and insulation tests.

    Like I said, you can train a monkey but I am sure many people who think it is as simple as running and terminating some wires have never heard of the tests I just mentioned, which are there for safety.

    A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. It helps to have a good understanding of electrical theory before doing even the most simple of jobs.

    Cheers, Jack
    "There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

  22. #22
    Northernmost member in Oz Jack E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildman
    Reckons it was probably closer to the standards than most jobs out there with one exception, I drove the earth spike too far into the ground (150mm exposed please says mr standards man not 100mm). If you want a copy of the wiring standards, let me know. Check everything with a multimeter before you start, and again before you touch it. Use proper wiring, connectors and install to the standard and it is fine.
    Wildman,

    As you have a copy of the standards, could you check them and tell us what tests, other than "check everything with a multimeter before you start, and again before you touch it" are required.
    You will find that the wiring you did, didn't comply with the standard if these tests weren't done for four years, a long time to live somewhere you didn't know whether it was safe or not.
    Alot of people think that if they push the test button on an RCD after installation and it trips, then the wiring is OK. This is not the case as there are other fault conditions which could exist.

    Cheers, Jack.
    "There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

  23. #23
    2 kids, no time Wildman's Avatar
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    Hi All.

    This one became quite emotive didn't it?

    I have broken up my response according to previous statements.

    My reference to checking with the multimeter was directed to the original topic of the post which was putting a couple of powerpoints back on. If you do it properly, polarity will be right easily enough, you are using the same wiring that was previously connected to these powerpoints and the earth resistance will be exactly the same as when you took them out. I would bet that there is not a sparky in existance that would perform any of these tests on a powerpoint replacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    It takes four years to become qualified because there is alot more to trades than the small tasks you refer to.
    I dont care how much else there is to being a sparky, I was referring to wiring a house. To become qualified, you need to do the entire 4 year apprecticeship when the requirements for domestic wiring require a fraction of the overall qualification, my gripe is with not being able to get qualified to the point where I can do my own domestic electrical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    The question is, you may be able to wire an RCD in accordance with the regulations but do you know why it is done that way
    As a matter of fact I do. I have a very good knowledge of electrical principles and theory. As for the fine details of exactly how the device itself is built to measure very small inconsistencies in current in and out of a circuit, dont care, not relevant to this discussion. Same as a microwave oven, I know how they work but dont really care how the magnetron itself is constructed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    You may be able to wire a house but how would you go programming a PLC, are you any good at vector analysis, what do you know about a VSD driving an 11000V 12 mega Watt motor that moves 800 tonne?
    Read above, I dont care. Do you have a 11000V 12 mega Watt motor at home wired up with domestic wiring? If you do, I suggest getting an electrician in, and your own substation. IT has lots of acronyms too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    As far as the fridgy work goes, how are you on the procedures and regs there, do you know anything about pressures, boiling points, heat loading, enthalpy?
    Pretty good actually, along with many tertiary level chemistry and physics projects, you will find the above topics are a significant part of a Civil engineering degree if you decide to specialise in chemical processing systems engineering (which I did until I changed to another civil stream because I found it boring).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    Anybody with a bit of nouse can make something work.
    I will take that as a compliment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    The key is making something work efficiently, effectively and economically.
    It depends why you were doing it in the first place. To make it more economical, do it yourself. If you cant make it effective, why did you do it in the first place. Efficiency is relative, a small drop in efficiency can be offset by the savings by not hiring a sparky in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E
    You will find that the wiring you did, didn't comply with the standard if these tests weren't done for four years, a long time to live somewhere you didn't know whether it was safe or not.
    I have lived my entire life in houses that have never seen an electrician. Until I bought my own place, my family was completely self sufficient in electricity, wind, solar and diesel generators with multiple large banks of batteries and inverters and every bit of wiring done ourselves. I have a lot of respect for electricity and what it can do, I do not have a gung ho attitude to it and any wiring I do, I do with my eyes wide open. If I screw up, I have to deal with the consequences. Darwin's theory of evolution at work, let me find out if I am one of the ones who survives or if I am one of the ones that the gene pool wont miss if I dont but dont tell me that I am too stupid to do this sort of work unless I sit through a 4 year apprenticeship.

    I digress. Getting back to my original point, domestic wiring is not rocket science, why can't I sit a set of practical exams and skills tests to become certified to do my own wiring in my own house. I do not want to make money from this and work as an electrician but I want the option to chose whether or not I do my own wiring or get an electricial contractor in to do it for me. The same goes for plumbing.

    Regards
    Ben
    My glue tastes funny.

  24. #24
    Northernmost member in Oz Jack E's Avatar
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    This one didn't become emotive, just brought up a few facts.

    OK, so we have established that a fair amount of the 4 years of training is not required to wire a house.
    I do not have a 12 mega Watt motor at home but it would make a cracker of a DC
    I agree completely with your "Darwin" comment. I think the gene pool needs a little chlorine added to kill off the weak (read: stupid)
    I guess when it all boils down to it, most things you do in your home are not going to create a life threatening situation.
    A small mistake in the wiring could kill somebody and seeing as we have an obligation to protect those who can't look after themselves these days, we have Electrical Regulations.

    Like I said, I do many things in my own home that I am not qualified to do and I don't care who does the same.

    As has been said before, if you aren't sure don't do it.

    On the same token, if you think you know what you are doing and it all turns bad, you have no one to blame but yourself

    You asked the question, why can't I sit an exam to allow me to wire my own house.
    Unfortunately, many idiots have gone before you and ruined it for everybody else. Get used to it, no matter how smart you are legislation and regulations are only going to become more a part of our lives.

    Cheers, Jack
    "There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

  25. #25
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    Boys, boys, boys,

    Backinyerbox.

    Just shove the bloody powerpoints back on, get Zed to stuff around with them, if the monkey lives whoopey, if he doesn't, well........ we've been usin' them for years for this stuff.


    I'm not too sure about the chlorine in the gene pool bit though. A few blokes have tried that. Always ends in tears.
    Boring signature time again!

  26. #26
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    Hi Wildman,
    If you were an electrical engineer,then in Victoria you would be permitted to do exactly what you are talking about.

    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="90%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"><td align="right" width="50">
    </td> <td align="left">Occupier's Licence</td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
    </td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
    </td> <td align="left">Application for an Occupier's Licence</td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
    </td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
    </td> <td align="left">Who Must Be Licensed</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
    </td> <td align="left">An Occupier's Licence entitles the holder to carry out electrical installation work that is limited to premises which the licence holder occupies for residential purposes, provided the applicant is sufficiently qualified and competent to hold a licence. When issued, the licence will have the residential address to which the licence applies included on the licence.</td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
    </td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
    </td> <td align="left">Who May Apply to be Licensed</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
    </td> <td align="left">You must be able to produce evidence that you are the occupant of the residential premises referred to in the licence application. In addition, you must be able to produce evidence that you have completed a course of study in electrical engineering at a tertiary level which included at least 80 hours experience in carrying out electrical installation work and has satisfactorily completed a Licensed Electrical Mechanics (LEM) Assessment conducted by a body approved by the ESV.The holder of this type of licence is only permitted to carry out electrical installation work on the premises occupied by the licence holder, the address of which is endorsed on the licence.

    </td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
    </td></tr></tbody> </table> Maybe you can add electrical engineering to your repertoire as a postgrad.

    Tools

  27. #27
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    I really can't see how you can go wrong in this case - has to be the simplest wiring job of all time. Stick the powerpoints back on yourself and keep the coin.
    BTW - The worst wiring jobs I have seen have been by "real" sparkies. Not to mention the crap they left in my roof space once.

  28. #28
    2 kids, no time Wildman's Avatar
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    I would love to do electrical engineering, but it also requires a 4 year course that I dont have time for. Perhaps once I complete my masters of entrepreneurship I might consider it, 3 subjects to go and yes it is a real course.
    My glue tastes funny.

  29. #29
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    Hi vGolfer, you have generated some interesting discussion with your question!

    I work for a supply authority, and for six years I was in the section involved in the investigation of deaths related to electrical accidents. My views on this subject are perhaps coloured by that experience.

    That you asked the question in the first place tells me that you are quite intelligent but you don't have the experience you need to do this job. Listen to your own doubts and get someone experienced to either do it for you or help you with this.

    Houses do burn to the ground due to poor power point connections years after those connections were made. Family members do get shocks from poorly connected electrical installations.

    I know the $100 seems a lot, but you are buying the experience as much as the time.

    A word of caution to all on safety switches, they are very effective at preventing you from being killed if you get yourself between active and earth. I strongly recommend them. If you get yourself between active and neutral you will boil just like the jug does, the safety switch won't know you're there. Don't become complacent with electricity just because you have a safety switch.

    regards,

    John

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