Electrical Engineer allowed to do Electrical work?

Greg,

The short answer is NO.

The system is setup as a very closed shop and doesn't seem to allow for any exemptions for professionally qualified engineers - effectively, the only way to obtain a licence is via an apprenticeship.

In my view, the system is well overdue for an overhaul.

hi chrisp,
Still cofused. What does this mean from Electrical Safety Act 2002
(3) A person is not required under subsection (1) to hold an
electrical work licence for the purpose of the following—
(b) performance or supervision of electrical work in
practising the person’s profession as an electrical
engineer;

It means you don't have to be a Licensed Electrician to do the work of an electrical engineer; but it does not mean you can get an electrician's license because you are qualified to design power stations/extremely high voltage equipment/domestic electrical fittings or whatever.

You've still got to do your four year apprenticeship, because electrical wiring is really, really, really tricky, m'kay.

That must be true, as even with this highly restricted and unique licensing regime (leading to what must be the most highly skilled electricians in the world) Australia still has the highest fatality rate for electrical workers.

I, for one, certainly would not want to even think about letting some unemployed dime-a-dozen Ph.D whose last working experience was designing and installing the superconducting magnets on the Large Hadron Collider do anything as complex as undo a switch from a wall and screw in a new one!! How can you even think of comparing a degree course with a full on trade certificate!!!

Please excuse the sarcasm.

Greg,

If you are in the mood for a good laugh, have a look at a class of licence called an "occupier's licence". It's a class of licence that allows a qualified electrical engineer such as yourself to do their own electrical work on their own premises. It's probably perfect for you. All you have to do is sit the required exams and you're in! Ha, ha, the jokes on us. You also have the have 80 hours approved supervised work experience too - doesn't sound that hard does it? Oh, to do the work experience you have to have a supervised workers licence/permit. But you have to be indentured to be allowed to be a supervised worker.

It's an amazing set of rules and regulations that would do Joseph Heller proud Bottomline is that I've been told by the regulator that the only way to get a wiring licence these days is via an apprenticeship. As for having any other electrical or related qualifications, it doesn't count a cracker - you'd might as well be the kid who works at the hamburger joint.

To add insult to injury, the industry seems to push the line that the rules are there for safety, safety, safety - and are nothing to do with maintaining a closed shop!

BTW, if you are a plumber or similar, you can get a restricted disconnect-reconnect licence. These restricted licences are discretional - just because you've done (and passed) the course doesn't mean you're entitled to one. Good luck getting a restricted licence just so you can change a light fitting at your own home. I've yet to hear a sensible explanation as to why these licences are not generally available to the general public. Surely, training people will help improve their safety?

If you read some of the responses to electrical questions posted on this forum, you'd think electrocution was a major cause of death in this country, or that you'd almost certainly burn your house down or kill your loved ones if a non-licenced person wires something. In fact, driving on the road is far more dangerous.

I don't think the "mushroom principle" (i.e. keep them in the dark and feed them s???) is the way to improve electrical safety. In my view, providing people with readily available knowledge and training is the way to truly improve safety (but may not be compatible to maintaining a closed shop ).

The present system is a joke. I find it hard to believe that safety can possibly be the prime motive for the restrictive licencing system. It's a system that needs reform.

......

desparately searching for a comprehensive guide on wire twisting. Anyone?

Gg

elkangorito,

I have no issue whatsoever with requiring anyone who is doing electrical work to have the required competency. I also appreciate your post on the importance of making good connections (twisting wires).

What I do have issue with is that the *only* training that is acceptable is a four year apprenticeship - regardless of prior training or skills. It seems excessive to have to do a four-year apprenticeship to learn to "twist wires" and understand the wiring regulations?

The Americans use a 110Vac system so in most part they are dealing with twice the current (for the same appliances on 230Vac) than in Australia. They seem to like those "twist on" connectors rather than the screw type tunnel connectors we use here. I wonder if they are required to do a four-year apprenticeship to do their electrical work - or are American homes burning down at some unexplained rate?

I do like the idea of having electrical inspectors. Our construction industry uses the inspector model. For example, It doesn't matter if your house is owner-built or trade-built, it has to meet the required standards and it goes through the same inspection process in either case.

No one seems have too many concerns with owner-built homes/extensions - as long as there was a building permit in place and the required inspections occurred (and a certificate of occupancy issued). And, yes, I've seem some shoddy owner-builder work too - but the shoddy workmanship seems to occur where there is no permit (or inspections) in place.

Actually you could probably do an end-run around the regulations by seeing what the training and assessment requirements were for overseas qualifications. Do an overseas course by correspondence, arrange a holiday to go and get a license in that country, then back to Oz and get your O/S quals recognised under the international skills recognition framework.

Hummmm, there could be a nice little earner there organising working holidays in NZ...

What elkangorito is talking about is EXPERIENCE

Thats why a 4 year apprenticeship EXPERIENCE
There is a big difference between knowing and doing

Mate you can sook and winge all you like on the forum but its simply not going to happen

Originally Posted by chrisp

I do like the idea of having electrical inspectors.

As you serious
here in Vic theres almost more inspectors than sparkies.
Gee one in ten jobs of ours gets audited
Energy Safe Vic have opened 2 offices in regional Vic and employed Representatives to oversee the auditing and prosecution of non compliant and non licenced electrical work
Then theres the Independence inspectors
They are friggen ever where

What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

Originally Posted by Vernonv

Sorry UB, but you will have to do a 4 year apprenticeship before you can learn than ... apparently.

Yes it is part of a 4 year apprenticeship
As I said Its all about experience

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

end over end

Au is the safetycrap country unfortunately. This precludes much sharing of information in more than just electrickery with everyone worrying about risk etc.

Common sense does not appear to be that common and those who are seeking to comply get thwarted by this dogma. Those who dont care just do it anyway.

Perhaps this 'electrical' part should be removed from the forums

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

Depends, Are you left or right handed? Northern or Southern Hemisphere?

Clockwise from end on...


Electrical Engineers are allowed to undertake Electrical Work. It's covered by the various regulations, however, it can only be undertaken if it is a necessary part of their employment. I've contacted the ESA previously about this, and I'm trying to dig out their response. Basically they stated you must be heavily involved in the works as part of your employment before you can undertake the works...

Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Worked with a sparky from Ireland (no jokes about what's black and crispy and hangs from the ceiling please ) on a few boat refits, he was the operations manager for this particular company. He'd looked at getting his license over here but it was simpler for him to just work in different fields and get new qualifications.

Mick,

Could you post more details? I'd be interested to hear the account of an overseas qualified tradesman and their troubles with obtaining Australian certification.

Chris

Personally, I twist wires widdershins when viewed from the insulation end.

Tip for newbies - copper wire is notch sensitive, so make sure that you don't leave a cut mark in it from side cutters - use proper wire strippers (cheapies are $3 from Bunnies).

There's a thread here somewhere - http://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php - about getting Aust qualifications, but I can't find it at the moment.

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

The correct answer is, with the twist that's manufactured into the cable. Or course this only applies for stranded cables

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

The correct answer is, with the twist that's manufactured into the cable. Or course this only applies for stranded cables

Wrong... It doesn't matter which way the strands are twisted.... It should be clockwise from end on, because as the termination screws in, it will tighten the twist.... Anti-clockwise twist and the thread action will undo the effective twist....

oh my god chuth you have just given detailed info to the unqualified. Mate dont you know that you should NEVER give any info on how to do electrical work.

Originally Posted by Dan574

oh my god chuth you have just given detailed info to the unqualified. Mate dont you know that you should NEVER give any info on how to do electrical work.

Dan, by the sounds of it on here, there are some "qualified" who I've just given advice to!

Mate its been 24 hours or since you posted and the world hasnt ended so it must be ok.

So...... do we need to have a left and a right handed sparky on site at all times , and

asign them twisting resposibilites for clockwise/anticlockwise ends.



Hang on a minute..

This will totally change the rough in of a job. What a nightmare this will be. Having to co-ordinate both left and right handed sparkies, pulling in cables ensuring that there is a harmonious meeting of twists in the same direction at the same termination point.

I can see it now. Having to pull circuits out ( or part ther of ), spin the length around and re-install said length.

Going to be costly

Originally Posted by 2x4

So...... do we need to have a left and a right handed sparky on site at all times , and

asign them twisting resposibilites for clockwise/anticlockwise ends.



Hang on a minute..

This will totally change the rough in of a job. What a nightmare this will be. Having to co-ordinate both left and right handed sparkies, pulling in cables ensuring that there is a harmonious meeting of twists in the same direction at the same termination point.

I can see it now. Having to pull circuits out ( or part ther of ), spin the length around and re-install said length.

Going to be costly

Would you prefer someone like me to do the job or someone who doesn't give a toss about "detail" to do the job? BTW, the "detail" is always the most important thing about any job.

Originally Posted by elkangorito

I agree, chrisp. The subject of "Connecting cables to electrical apparatus" is one that is not even taught at T.A.F.E. (somebody correct me if I am wrong).

Now this is getting interesting. So, as far as you know, the mechanics of connecting and joining cables isn't actually taught at TAFE, but rather just picked up along the way during the apprenticeship.

Is twisting in the direction of the "natural twist" common, or formally taught, in the electrical trades or is it just "good practice"?

[QUOTE]Would you prefer someone like me to do the job or someone who doesn't give a toss about "detail" to do the job? BTW, the "detail" is always the most important thing about any job[QUOTE]


All a bit to serious mate.

Agreed , it is the detail that makes a quality job, but honestly, in the course of wiring a house etc. ,you will more than likely have differing ends at the same termination point.

Probably couldnt afford the return flights to Thailand for you anyways, just to show me the ropes on twisting a bit of copper .

Originally Posted by chrisp

Now this is getting interesting. So, as far as you know, the mechanics of connecting and joining cables isn't actually taught at TAFE, but rather just picked up along the way during the apprenticeship.

Is twisting in the direction of the "natural twist" common, or formally taught, in the electrical trades or is it just "good practice"?

Chris, in my experience it is learnt along the way. From memory, T.A.F.E. try to make you understand something about "hot joints" & why (& how) they occur. When I attended T.A.F.E. back in the eighties, the detail about this was not gone into.
On a different note, I did serve part of my electrical apprenticeship in the R.A.A.F. as a radio technician. My training covered such things as "High Reliability Hand Soldering", which went into detail about twisting wires & the stress placed upon such wires if twisted incorrectly.

[quote=2x4;749199][quote]Would you prefer someone like me to do the job or someone who doesn't give a toss about "detail" to do the job? BTW, the "detail" is always the most important thing about any job

All a bit to serious mate.

Agreed , it is the detail that makes a quality job, but honestly, in the course of wiring a house etc. ,you will more than likely have differing ends at the same termination point.

Probably couldnt afford the return flights to Thailand for you anyways, just to show me the ropes on twisting a bit of copper .

I don't know what's not serious about houses that burn down.

In Thailand, a common saying is "Up to you". So, I'll leave it "up to you" to decide if you want a proper job or not. Please bear in mind that a "proper job" means that your interests (& your family's interests) are taken seriously.

ไ้ฟะำอำพ กรแา้ำฟก

Probably doesnt make much sense, but at least I tried.

.

Originally Posted by nev25

As I said Its all about experience

I'm a bit puzzeled by all of this twisting the same direction?? Last time I striped some stranded 2.5mm the 7 strands run straight in the insulation. You can twist it left or right. The only twisted stuff I've seen is bare earths from the cable made in the sixty's and seventy's.

You guy's giving the advice sure you know what you're talking about?

If the cable is stripped correctly, it will have a twist (this is part of the cable manufacturing process). In your case, I will suggest that the cable was not stripped correctly.

perhaps stripping the cable correctly involves a twist during the strip and hence providing a twist in a particular direction. I thought stripping wire was really quite simple.. get a wire stripper, set so as not to cut the core wires, strip...???

Andy

Sorry to open such a can of worms. Actually I was never taught this at my Electrical Technician's Certification either, though it probably wasn't part of the syllabus. It was pointed out to me by fellow workmate who was an old school Electrician.
Apologies again for being a smartarse and raising this, and also to the OP for dragging his topic off course.

im sorry I find this hard to believe but if it isnt taught at TAFE or wherever then the powers that be have not deemed it important enough to worry about. If it was something that was potentially as dangerous as some are suggesting then Im sure it would be covered, surely.

In the ACT the following is referred to in a Note from ACTPLA:

"Qualifications in electrical engineering will also satisfy the requirement for theoretical training. Applicants need to be eligible for corporate membership of the Institute of Engineers, Australia."

http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/...4/2039/en4.pdf

I have a number of engineer friends who hold unrestricted licences in the ACT following application and a practical assessment (by 3rd parties such as TAFE). I know others who have obtained restricted licences allowing work on their own homes under supervision of an unrestricted licensee (who signs off with the regulator).

Funnily enough NZ (which uses ANZ3000 standard as do we) is regulated in a much simpler and less restrictive way compared to Australia when it comes to residential work and its experience since the loosening of restrictions does not suggest a poorer result on quality of work or safety - and it has been watched and measured.

http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/temp...____17682.aspx

The focus there is on the results of the work and education and access to good information not the licensing of the worker. Insurance claims and other measures that might indicate a failing system show a successful model that Australia could easily adopt. That does not mean open slather by any means - but a different way of compliance testing and certification of work.

As to a closed shop - we might perhaps look at the vociferous opposition of a number of the unions to any proposals to free up the onerous regulatory requirements on a range of trades licensing as evidence that at least someone likes the restrictions for other than straight public safety reasons.

Then again in building and elsewhere the unions are the clear leaders in trying to improve workplace safety where governments of all complexions have failed to maintain and police standards (while spruiking the 'best practice' mantra.

WillyinBris, sounds like you are a pom. The whinging part did not give it away so much as the "super" comment

All trades have there good and bad days, and apprentices, alot of them anyway are a credit to there company.

All the talk of twisting the wires in a certain direction is a load of .........in most situations. The main thing here is that the wires are twisted together firmly and the fixing screws are done up in a similar manner.
Its loose conections that can cause heating problems.

All new cicuits should be tested for polarity,insulation and resistence and depending on the install , a trip time test. Most of the domestic sparkies will not have downloadable testing equipment, so when an electrician tells you an installation is good to go, and has left it energised there is no need not to use it.
A bit of trust/respect for the trades please.

Whether an apprentice or a tradesman, the price is the same, and imho so it should be.

If you dont like it either do it yourself or cough up the dollars.

In almost all cases WillyexBris, test results are not shown to the client. Not trying to be rude but they will more than likely mean nothing to you.
Tradesman can not physically do all the work, they need help, commonly in the form of apprentices.
Supervision is in fact needed for all apprentices, but does not nesissarily(sp) have to be direct supervision.
I couldnt agree more that you and your families safety is paramount.

To avoid dissapointment in the future , you may have to stipulate that you only want tradesmen on site, or apprentices with the amount of expieriance you think is needed to screw a gpo to the wall.

I am an Electrical Engineer and have had a full Electrical Supervisors Licence for about 35 years. In those days, to get the licence (without a formal apprenticeship) you were required to have had a certain length of practical experience as an electrician (documented informal appreticeship or supervised experience), a Degree or Certificate in Electrical Engineering and then pass an oral test for the licence.

As I don't have a contractors licence any more, I am only allowed to wire my own properties (not anyone elses).
A contractors licence is simply an insurance fee to protect the public should they wish to make a claim on the electrician.

However, what confuses me is why I cannot do simple like-for-like safety upgrades to my relatives homes at no charge? Like a lot of people, they tend to put up with potentially dangerous GPOs, Light fittings, power cords etc rather than pay a contractor. Surely it is better for a family member to be able to fix up these items, if they waive the right (in writing) to make any claim.

On the matter of preparing the wire ends, twisting the wires correctly and in the clockwire direction, I have come across many many houses where some idiot has simply pushed the wires into the tunnel connector etc and then over or under tightened the screw. The end result is some strands can be cut off and/or some wires simply falling out of the tunnel. Its a fire risk either way. For some (most) people to get a proper understanding (feel) on how to prepare wire ends and how tight to correctly tighten up the screw can take years of experience during the apprenticeship before they are let loose in the world on their own. Don't get me started on how many years it can take for someone to solder or how to use a screwdriver properly.

Requirement for electrical contractor licence
(1) A person must not conduct a business or undertaking that
includes the performance of electrical work unless the person
is the holder of an electrical contractor licence that is in force.
Maximum penalty—400 penalty units.
(2) Without limiting subsection (1), a person conducts a business
or undertaking that includes the performance of electrical
work if the person—
(a) advertises, notifies or states that, or advertises, notifies
or makes a statement to the effect that, the person carries
on the business of performing electrical work; or
(b) contracts for the performance of electrical work, other
than under a contract of employment; or
(c) represents to the public that the person is willing to
perform electrical work; or
(d) employs a worker to perform electrical work, other than
for the person.
(3) However, a person does not conduct a business or undertaking
that includes the performance of electrical work only because
the person—
(a) is a licensed electrical mechanic who—
(i) performs electrical work for the person or a relative
of the person at premises owned or occupied by the
person or relative; or
(ii) makes minor emergency repairs to make electrical
equipment electrically safe; or

Do those 400 penalty units translate into something equivalent in real life? And where can I adopt an electrician?