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Cleaning and Oiling your Deck

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  1. #1
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Default Cleaning and Oiling your Deck

    Hi all .. I got bored Friday so decided to clean and oil my own deck for a change.. This then brought on the opportunity to photograph and note the stages for others as it seems to be a popular question..

    Firstly what you need to clean the deck:
    1) Bucket to put cleaner in
    2) A container of house hold Napisan
    3) A deck scrub broom available at Bunnies or Mitre 10




    Decking before cleaning ( this is the faded section i refer to later just inside the side gate )






    How to clean:

    Mix 1/3 of the Napisan container into half a bucket of warm to hot water and break down the napisan..
    Dampen the deck with water
    Apply the cleaner with the deck scrub broom giving a light scrub at the same time
    Let sit for 15 minutes without drying ( best to do with sun off the deck ) add more cleaner or a light water spray to keep wet
    Once 15 Mins is up apply a small amount of extra cleaner to make it easier to give a scrub..
    Give a really thorough scrub
    Rinse really well
    Leave to dry usually 24 hours

    The deck is now clean!!!

  2. #2
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Default With Cleaner Applied

    These photo's show the cleaner applied and the finished result after the deck has been cleaned of old dirt and oil residue



    You wont get this much soap suds i exaggerated it for the pic





    The deck has been stripped of all dirt and old oil coating residue




    The colour has been brightened if you compare to the pic in post above ( faded section brightened)


    cheers utemad

  3. #3
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Default How to apply the Oil

    Now the deck has dried and we are ready to apply our oil coating.. I chose Feast and Watson but this is just a personal thing ..

    What you Need

    1) A rag to clean up
    2) A Decking / Fence brush
    3) Paint tray
    4) Pole and applicator
    5) Turps to clean up messes
    6) a mixer for the oil a stick will do these are better to pull the pigment through





    When applying deck oil the key is to run the entire length of the baord before starting moving across the deck.. If using an applicator try doing 4 boards at a time paying attention to finish neatly on a board and not overlap onto a dry board as this can leave marks if the oil has dried by the time you get back to it.
    Try to apply only as much as the board will absorb . If new to it do a 4 board run then watch it for 5-10 mins as it absorbs this way if you have applied to much you can remove the excess or if to light you can apply a bit more from then on


    With the deck half coated ( note how i stopped neatly on a full board )



    With the deck fully coated and still wet hence the super glossy look



    As you will see the faded section below has been brought back without the need for sanding




    Follow your tin for directions as to when to apply your second coat and apply slightly less than the first as it wont be absorbed as easily and may float on top attracting dirt ..


    Most of all enjoy your new deck..


    cheers utemad

  4. #4
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Default Cleaning Merbau decking

    This is the same procedure for cleaning new Merbau decking to remove the excess tannin on the face and prepare it for your oil coating..

    This is not the exact cleaning procedure if you are applying Spa N Deck as your deck coating

    cheers utemad

  5. #5
    Old Chippy 6K
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    Ripper post UteMad - I am sure many members new and old will find it informative.

  6. #6
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Cheers!!

    It seems a popular question and one i get atleast a few PM's a month about.. Would be nice if they made a few of these sticky's to save the same question popping up day after day.. Like how long do i leave new merbau before coating..


    Oh the answer to that is we don't leave it, we follow the method above and do it once we have finished laying it and have done it this way for many years with great results

    cheers utemad

  7. #7
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    Default napisan ratio?

    Great information there!!

    What is the ratio of Napisan / water you use?

  8. #8
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    1/3 of a container to half a bucket of water

    very scientific... dont mess with what works i figure

    cheers utemad

  9. #9
    Old Chippy 6K
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewbailey1 View Post
    Great information there!!

    What is the ratio of Napisan / water you use?
    BTW - you can use the 'no name' generic nappy wash - from Aldi or any supermarket. Active ingredient is sodium perborate and they all have around the same amount. Much cheaper, not that you use all that much anyway - but you don't want that annoying Napisan bloke knocking on your door . . .

  10. #10
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Yeah use what ever brand you want .. no matter how you look at it it beats paying 40-50 bucks for a deck cleaner thats nowhere near as strong.I have used most bottled over the counter cleaners and none bar the flood powerlift has done much to impress... Yeah Napisan is Sodium Percarbonate plus stuffers perfumes colours etc .. We just like this way for customers as its something they tend to have in the house ready and easily accessable at minimal expense.. We have our own commercial cleaner which packs a bit more punch again but like most things the general public cant do much damage with over the counter napisan and it gives great results..

    cheers utemad

  11. #11
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    Great post utemad!

    I was just about to be the annoying person to do the 200th "how do I oil my deck" post!

    One quick question though, I've just about finished laying my deck using Swan River Red (fancy name the Boral guys gave Karri I believe, despite the fact it comes from no where near the Swan River) and was wondering if this process would be suitable for this timber also?
    It would be the first coat of oil too obviously, being a new deck.

    Probably a stupid question but always pays to check I reckon.
    Anyway, thanks again for the great post!

    Cheers,

    Ricey

  12. #12
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Mate deck cleaning is deck cleaning regardless off the board being laid.. As to your particular board i haven't had any dealings with it in particular.. If its a Kiln Dried board (as far as i am aware all boral are KD ) then i see no reason why not to clean and oil straight away .. If its an air dried board then it will be your call how dry the board is.. either way it doesn't hurt to clean it now.. It will from my experience help it dry faster if all the old surface tanin and grime are removed.. if you clean now and leave it then you will have to clean again prior to oiling it..

    Hope this helps

    cheers utemad

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    Sounds good to me!
    I'm actually giving it a bit of a light sand so I should be able to pretty much just hose it off and oil it?????
    Didn't really want to wait before oiling, although some seem to think this is good, I'll be glad to get it oiled up straight away!

    cheers.

  14. #14
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    for the few bucks and 15mins longer dont skip the cleaner it will loosen it all up and open the pours to take the oil in.. Thats the whole point of the post to show people they can clean it and get great result for a few bucks so why skip the stage

    cheers utemad

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    Couldn't agree more. We are very fortunate as readers of this forum to have people like Utemad that are willing to share their expertise.

    JimJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by UteMad View Post
    for the few bucks and 15mins longer dont skip the cleaner it will loosen it all up and open the pours to take the oil in.. Thats the whole point of the post to show people they can clean it and get great result for a few bucks so why skip the stage

    cheers utemad
    No probs, will clean as well.
    Wasn't sure if this was necessary after sanding, hence the ????
    Thanks for clearing that up for me

  17. #17
    A1 FLOOR SANDER Dusty's Avatar
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    Pick up Deranged
    'bout freakin' time you shared some of your magic with the deck cleaning. We've all been asking for long enough.

    The results look awesome and so do-able for anybody to complete without ballzing it up.

    I will be putting this on to many of my customer queries who really don't want to pay the coin to have a deck fully sanded and finished. This simple procedure should keep many decks in great shape, for a long time to come.

    Noticed a coupla utes in the reflection of the window. What's that all about?

  18. #18
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    Fantastic simplified info UteMad and quality photos to go with it.

    Mate I have a 7 by 4m deck directly out the back of my house which is sheltered by a shade sail at present but am about to remove that and build a roof over the top and enclose the area with outdoor blinds primarily to add another room to our house.

    My dilemna is a: our Merbau boards are laid grooves up. When first laid I coated with Cabots Natural which produced a beautiful dark golden colour which I was very happy with, but then 12 months later recoated with Solver Natural which darkened the boards way too much for my liking. Will a thourough clean and recoat with Cabots return the boards to a lghter shade do you think or will I struggle to remove enough of the darker stain to achieve this?

    My other dilemna is, the deck is attatched to the house and outside double cedar doors, directly inside is a mian living room with floating floors... I would like to achieve a somewhat seamless transition to the outside area and think that having the boards "smooth side" up would do this and in the end look far better than grooves up! I presume I can not remove the boards and spin them around and re nail???? so with the price increases of timber since I had the deck done originally, (2006) how much would I be up for $$$ to start again? Which boards? $$$ for 90mm boards, end result Dark Golden colour deck?

    Thanks,

  19. #19
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Gees thanks Mate you make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside..heheheehe
    Thought it was a good way to celebrate my 500th post

    Catch up soon


    Utemad

  20. #20
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    Hmmmm..... nailed hardwood, eh? Some of the nails look a little close to the edges too...

    The deck must have been there when you bought the house, right?

    Nah, only jokin'. Nice post. Fair deck.

    Damien

  21. #21
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    This is a great post. I have been thinking of cleaning the deck for sometime now but I haven't gotten around doing it. I think your post had inspired me to do it very soon. Thanks.

  22. #22
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    Pick up Deranged
    'bout freakin' time you shared some of your magic with the deck cleaning. We've all been asking for long enough.

    The results look awesome and so do-able for anybody to complete without ballzing it up.


    Noticed a coupla utes in the reflection of the window. What's that all about?

    Hi Dusty

    Yeah i know made you wait long enough... I have to admit to still keeping a bit back though so i can still go that bit further.. You cant blame me i hope heheheehehe
    This is plenty strong enough to give great results for the home owner without getting into trouble..

    As to the utes yeah its a problem.. Picked up the lasted FG xr8 for work duties.. Trouble is i get sick of them and they tend to get swapped for something else every couple of years .. Hence "utemad"

    Cheers utemad

  23. #23
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcwalker View Post
    Hmmmm..... nailed hardwood, eh? Some of the nails look a little close to the edges too...

    The deck must have been there when you bought the house, right?

    Nah, only jokin'. Nice post. Fair deck.

    Damien

    Yeah my deck and its nailed with 65mm titadecks .. check out how anal too .. piloted and hand nailed .. was only tiny so detail became important.. its all ironbark including the sleepers $$$.. All the deck boards are full length accept 2 in the very front and everyone is a solid red.. Had to buy 100m2 and sift it to get it at the time.. Looks alright for something in my garage


    cheers utemad

  24. #24
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    Default Recoating deck

    Thanks UteMad for info on cleaning and oiling an old deck. Will the proceedure work on a Merbau deck previously coated with Cabots Aquadeck? The Aquadeck went down only about 8 months ago - 2 coats - but water is now soaking into the timber. I really don't want to use the Aquadeck again as the timber is yellow enough now.

  25. #25
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Mate the cleaner will clean your deck just the same.. As for you oiling over the aqua deck it wont remove it like it would the left over oil in normal deck oil.. All it will do for you is clean the surface.. If the aqua deck has totally lost its water repellency then you may be able to oil it but this cleaner wont remove it.. To my knowledge the dreaded sanding is the only way to totally remove water based coatings.. If your game clean it as per above and try a small area say 2 boards full width of the deck and let it dry over night and see how it goes.. Don't even attempt it though if bare water doesn't easily absorb into the board after cleaning the deck like a bare uncoated board..


    cheers utemad

  26. #26
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renno Bob View Post
    Fantastic simplified info UteMad and quality photos to go with it.

    Mate I have a 7 by 4m deck directly out the back of my house which is sheltered by a shade sail at present but am about to remove that and build a roof over the top and enclose the area with outdoor blinds primarily to add another room to our house.

    My dilemna is a: our Merbau boards are laid grooves up. When first laid I coated with Cabots Natural which produced a beautiful dark golden colour which I was very happy with, but then 12 months later recoated with Solver Natural which darkened the boards way too much for my liking. Will a thourough clean and recoat with Cabots return the boards to a lghter shade do you think or will I struggle to remove enough of the darker stain to achieve this?

    My other dilemna is, the deck is attatched to the house and outside double cedar doors, directly inside is a mian living room with floating floors... I would like to achieve a somewhat seamless transition to the outside area and think that having the boards "smooth side" up would do this and in the end look far better than grooves up! I presume I can not remove the boards and spin them around and re nail???? so with the price increases of timber since I had the deck done originally, (2006) how much would I be up for $$$ to start again? Which boards? $$$ for 90mm boards, end result Dark Golden colour deck?

    Thanks,
    Sorry mate missed your post..
    A thorough clean will strip back to bare if you put in the effort.. Dont cheat leave the 15-20 mins scrub really well .. you may wait until the next day or it dries have a look if it doesn't look bare and hammered looking clean again.(wont look new spose to look bare and dry ). Board prices have doubled since mid november so you would be looking at similar labour and prob 220% increase on board cost to 2006.. You'll never get a seamless join inside to outside.. the 2 will head different ways colour wise from the day you first do it .. even when we do black butt inside and out the coatings and environment are different.. Clean it back and whack on the cabot you like ( and i personally hate ) it wont cost you more than 200 bucks and check out the result.. way cheaper than a newy


    cheers utemad

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    Just to add another dimension, I am always looking for quick and effiecient ways to either have maintenace free timber, (because I love timber) or to look after timber effiiciently. I recently put up a Screen with Merbau timber slats 1.8 high x 6.5m long. I purchased a cheap Ozito or something like that for $30 a 4 litre of Wattyl Deck oil and sprayed both sides in 30 minutes total. I am going to spay all my decks with the spray gun, quick and cheap!!!

    Regards

    Tony
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screen-veggie-garden-009.jpg  

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony-w View Post
    Just to add another dimension, I am always looking for quick and effiecient ways to either have maintenace free timber, (because I love timber) or to look after timber effiiciently. I recently put up a Screen with Merbau timber slats 1.8 high x 6.5m long. I purchased a cheap Ozito or something like that for $30 a 4 litre of Wattyl Deck oil and sprayed both sides in 30 minutes total. I am going to spay all my decks with the spray gun, quick and cheap!!!

    Regards

    Tony
    Hi Tony

    Nice job on the screen, how well did the spray (I assume a decking oil, unless you painted/varnish) penetrate the slats. Or did the timber suck it up.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
    <o> </o>
    Are the posts pine? Were they treated and you just planned back the parts sticking out of the ground.<o></o>

  29. #29
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    With spraying oil two things to be aware of
    A it carries a long way and doesn't air dry like paint so be careful what it could land on
    B i am pretty sure they say to still back brush to help it absorb into the timber

    We prefer a lamswool pad applicator which i reckon would still be way faster thay a sprayer

    cheers utemad

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by UteMad View Post

    This is not the exact cleaning procedure if you are applying Spa N Deck as your deck coating
    My decking is complete, with Spotted Gum decking.

    I am going to apply Spa N Deck - Nautral Colour.

    Do you have "the cleaning and apply procedure" for Spa N Deck ? Bunnings have two bottles of Spa N Deck cleaning method , cant remember what it called then Spa N Deck oil after two clean method ?

    My recently photo of near complete deck with my dog !
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  31. #31
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    Nice looking deck. If I can add a most personal opinion I would suggest that you steer clear of the shade "natural" from Spa&Deck. I have refinished over 130+ decks over the past 3 years and have only used Spa&Deck. The concept of natural is to bring the best and true colour of your beautiful spotted gum. This can be seen when you have the deck soaking wet with only water. It is when the deck is wet you have a stunning appearance. Unfortunately water is clear and the sunns uv rays will travel straight through it and start turning it grey. Personally I think Flood made a shade called natural because most other coating companies have a product called natural. Like Cabots decking oil"natural" or Sikkens Cetol deck Natural. Spa &Deck dries very yellow as if you have coated the deck with egg yolk. I havn't used the natural tint on a deck yet. Spa&Deck comes in around 6 tints with only several that I think are appealing. I find Sedonna on a light timber deck as if pine or Blackbutt works OK. I think the shade that I have found has been welll received is the tint labelled Jarrah. It has a nice reddish-brown tint. When I am cleaning a deck and it is wet I wish I could just have a finish like water but it doesn't exist. You need pigment in the coating to block the sun.

    With regards to the steps of cleaning. Step 1 use Flood Powerlift or Napisan this will pick up any dirt and some tannins from the wood. Both are Sodium percarbonate based. Step 2 use Spa&Deck Prep ( oxalic acid based) follow the container instructions.
    Step 3 Choose a coating. If you stick with Flood Spa&Deck there is no need to wait for the timber to dry. If you go with an oil based product wait for the timber to dry.

    Please feel free to give me a call if you need any finer points .


    jimj www.restore-a-deck.com.au

  32. #32
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Mate if your gunna use my clean method instead of powerlift you still have to use there prep cleaner before you coat..
    How is Jim for a nice bloke.. if you were in my area i wouldn't have talked to your without seeing the colour of your money heheheehe



    cheers utemad

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    Default decking oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by UteMad View Post
    I chose Feast and Watson but this is just a personal thing ..
    Hi,
    We are currently looking into decking oil types for our new deck (syd blue gum)
    Can I ask Why you favour Feast and Watson?

    Great post very clear instructions.

    Thanks Getfished

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by getfished View Post
    Hi,
    We are currently looking into decking oil types for our new deck (syd blue gum)
    Can I ask Why you favour Feast and Watson?

    Great post very clear instructions.

    Thanks Getfished

    without getting too far into it orica make quite a few of the ones you pick up like feast cabots to name 2... feast is there better product and we find lasts longer and has better colours all of which are important when you are adding your labour onto the installation.. you want it to last as well as it can .. i am not a fan of wattyl and a lot of the colours in cabots aren't that flash.. there are probably more oils out there now but we have done so much feast that its traits are known so we stick with it as we are more comfortable with the result it will provide for the customer.. it is quite easy to source oil at half the price through trade suppliers but the quality is lesser.. feast even make a trade version not marketed to public but quality is lesser..

    utemad

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    Excellent post. Thank you!

    I'm planning to use Spa n deck on my Merbau deck. What colour is best to use do you guys reckon??? I just want a normal looking deck if you know what I mean...

  36. #36
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    Cant really offer colour choice but below is sedona on merbau






    cheers utemad

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    This is probably just my ignorance, but I might have a slightly different thing happening on my deck which perhaps needs a different approach. Its Merbau, under a year old, has been treated twice (2 coats each time - by me - ugh) with AquaDeck and gets LOTS of sun and rain. Each time before using the AD I've used Deckclean, which has been OK, not that great. Much of the deck has big patches of black on it, and this is what I want to get rid of. What is it??? Will the napisan get rid if this??

    Second part of the question is about water based v oil based treatments. Was told we should use water based but wonder because of the intense exposure an oil based product would be better??? Read about the issues re sanding and we have nails that would need to be hit down in order to sand (and its a BIG deck) so would not to suggest to my partner that he does that - ouch. Will oiling it offer more protection and allow re-coating with Napisan cleaning in-between? Will oiling stop the black marks coming back?? Too many questions....thanks all.

  38. #38
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    Black marks??? could be multiple things.. algae .. dirt ground into tree sap fallen on deck from a tree above.. metalic reaction to sopmething sitting on deck.. Hard to say without knowing what it is .. to go from water base to oil base will require sanding.. I have no time for aquadeck and the like so cant comment on there habits etc..

    Napisan will clean off algae and most tree stains if not try some bleach and warm water.. or 30 seconds but not the pre mixed spray packs

    I wont say oil will last longer but its easier to deal with and recoat.. if you dont like your oil job follow my cleaning and its basically removed then start again .. water base involves making friends with a floor sander everytime you have problems

    cheers utemad

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    Very informative post .
    What about green ,freshly milled Camphor Laural and Hoop Pine ,25x100 boards ? Only been milled a few weeks and the trees were cut down a few months ago .
    Just bung on the oil?
    Scrub with nappysan first and then oil ?
    Wait a few months or years for them to dry out ?
    They are under the roof line,no rain ,some sun .

    Thanks ---Mat

  40. #40
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    if the boards are green as in still wet then no i wouldn't oil straight away.. let it dry a bit and stop before it starts to weather to much ..you can still give it a clean to help it dry out better

    cheers utmad

  41. #41
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    GEEEZE GAV........ YOU PULLED 40 THREADS ON THAT ONE. That would have kept you up all night

  42. #42
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Hi Larry

    Mate long time no see.. Yeah i am a busy little bloke hey.. One day you never know i might actually do a job for someone off the forum ... Actually Naaah me thinks not

    Night night and happy sandin

    Utemad

  43. #43
    TIMBER FLOOR CONTRACTOR Larry McCully's Avatar
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    cheers big ears

  44. #44
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    Am wondering about 'natural' coloured oils such as feast watson's 'natural' decking oil.

    i have a spotted gum deck and want to bring out the timber's natural colour, and not tint it if possible. I read earlier in the thread that the downside of this is a lack of UV protection for the timber?

    Or was that for the specific Spa & Deck product being discussed earlier in the thread?

    So if the feast watson 'natural' coloured oil won't protect the timber as well as a coloured finish, what suggestions are there for a coloured oil to maintain as close as possible the 'wet' spotted gum look?

    thanks,

    Adam

  45. #45
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Mate none of the deck oils are really crystal clear.. wattyl is close but doesn't last.. cabots natural is yellow tinted.. feast is orange brown tinted.. If you spotted gum is new or atleast full of life when wet then either cabots or feast will look fine .. i'd sway more feast as cabots is a tad yellow for my liking..


    Try an offcut first or if no offcuts do an entire board .. if you dont like the colour get another oil.. The thing to remember is "natural" is a colour name not the end result

    cheers utemad

  46. #46
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    great advice, just what i wanted to hear thanks.

    my deck has been laying for about 7-8 months or so i rekon

    2 months ago i attacked it with a high pressure hose (water only - but i spent a whole day trying to do a thorough job), if i give it a clean now per the directions here, have I waited long enough to then go ahead an oil it, or should i keep seasoning it?

  47. #47
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Mate its climatised to where its living well and truely even if it was air dried when you got it and not kiln dried .. so yes clean as per above and apply your chosen coating and enjoy


    cheers utemad

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    Hi,

    I'm new to this renovating gig as I just bought my first home, so I'm not sure what my deck is previously coated with. Its fairly weathered, but some of the parts not exposed to rain (under the decking roof) look like it has a lacquer/shiny sort of finish. Much of it looks to have flaked off though.

    Am I looking at the previous decking oil finish? I'm not too sure what a new oiled deck looks like.

    I was just wondering if I was able to use this cleaning method on my deck.

    Also, when I view this thread the UteMad's original images don't appear. Is there an issue with my browser or something?

    Thanks!
    Dan

  49. #49
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Without seeing it its impossible to say.. the way to test the coating yourself is to clean as per the instructions at the start of thread.. the boards with no coating will be bare ready for oil or new coating the boards that have a coating now will either have it removed if oil or just cleaned if an estapol lacquer type finish.. to be sure get some water and pour over the part with the coating still on it .. move it around with finger or foot and see if its absorbed into the timber.. if its absorbed then the oil should take ( try a sample ) if it beads of then the part with the coating will need to be sanded to bare before coating


    hope this helps


    cheers utemad

  50. #50
    Oink! Oink! pawnhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danunited View Post
    Also, when I view this thread the UteMad's original images don't appear. Is there an issue with my browser or something?
    They show up alright for me. Try pasting the links directly in your address bar, and hit 'go', or 'refresh';
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...oreclean-1.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...oreclean-2.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...oreclean-3.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...anstage-06.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...anstage-09.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...anstage-10.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...dedtooil-1.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...d/coated-1.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...d/coated-2.jpg
    http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...d/coated-3.jpg

    edit; They've been shortened. If clicking on them doesn't work, try right click > properties, for the full address to copy paste into your address bar.
    Cheers, John

    Short Stack (my son's band)


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