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Deck In Courtyard !! Need Help And Advice

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  1. #1
    stefan
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    Post Deck In Courtyard !! Need Help And Advice

    hi all,

    i am about to start a decking project in my appartment. the courtyard is 2M wide by 8M long. One side of the courtyad is a brick wall and on the opposite side i have a timber fence.

    The fence needs replacing also, so what i was thinking is to build a new fence and decking at the same time.

    What i would like to know is, if i can attach the Deck to the new fence posts using a 150X50 bearer bolted to the posts and a ledger 150X50 to the brick wall and fixing the joists between the ledger and bearer using joist hangers and thus saving having to dig more holes and putting in more posts.

    Attached is a drawing of the courtyard and the propsed material i intend using.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
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    your idea is ok .....but what happens when you need to replace the fence?....what may be a short term solution now, will be a huge headache later...so .....I would dig the holes twice as wide and plant both the fence post and bearer post side by side and put double plinth boards on the bottom to raise the pailings up and also raise the height of the bottom fence rail ....you will end up with a higher fence for a cheaper price and in the future repairs or replacement would be a lot easier.

    p.s. standard fencing panels are 2.7meters apart .....rails come in 5.4mtr lengths ...so you may need to allow for this ...
    Last edited by manoftalent; 19th Feb 2008 at 07:06 PM. Reason: additional info

  3. #3
    stefan
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    thanks for that reply. I guess you are right, but when you plant the bearer posts and fence posts side by side, and concrete the lot wouldnt be as hard to replace either one in the future ?

    my concern is the corner fence post in conjunction with the deck. and would a 90x45 joist be enough ?

    thanks

  4. #4
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    personally I would do it all out of 300 x50 ...but since your only going 1.7mtrs across 90 x 45 should be ok spaced every 350mm ..

  5. #5
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Hi Stefan,

    Keep your deck stumps and fence posts seperate including the corner one. Don't forget that you can overhang your deck beams and joists past the corner deck stump by about 300 - 400mm. That way you can get your deck to go to the perimeter.

    rear-deck-joists-pic.jpg

    As far as joist size for the verandah in the pic that spans 12m x 1800 I used F17 KD HWD @ 140 x 45. The last thing you want is bounce from your deck. My wall ledger was 90 x 45 of the same material but my joists sat on top of the ledger.

    And don't support your deck off the fence!

    Cheers,
    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  6. #6
    stefan
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    HI Guys,

    thanks a lot for all your help. i now have a better picture of what i am going to do and how to do it. (i think) anyway i made a plan of what its gonna be and would appreciate to give me any feedback and if all sizes and dimensions make sense.

    i cannot place the joists on top of the bearere or ledger since i only have 150 to 180mm clearance from the ground an don't want to have to pull away a lot of earth and soil. tha is why i will be using joist hangers between bearer and ledger. is that ok ? does it make sense

    thanks a lot for your help
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #7
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Yep you can do that.
    And when you are using joist hangers make sure you use proper joist hanging nails not just normal flat head nails. They have to be the proper nails for joist hangers or any other bracket like triple grips or multigrips.

    Now, the most important question I want answered is -
    What program did you use to whip up that drawing?

    You betta tell me .

    Dr - 307 .
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  8. #8
    stefan
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    thaks a lot for all your help !! hope the weather will change so i can strat digging holes

    the program i used is autocad and the printed it to pdf

  9. #9
    Rigid Member UteMad's Avatar
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    Looks like a fun little project.. treated pine 90 x 45 joists span 1100mm for a single span with a 300mm max overhang.. this is for 450 spacings
    Keep the deck independant of the fence if possible as down the track if the fence needs work your neighbour pays at most half of a paling fence your left with your deck and if they feel the deck damaged the fence you'll pay the lot


    cheers utemad

  10. #10
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Utemad,
    He's spanning 1700.

    Stefan,
    I used autocad at RMIT (Industrial Design) and since then someone has given me the latest version but I haven't got around to using it. After seeing your plan I think I'll start using it.

    Cheers,
    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  11. #11
    stefan
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    DR-307,

    It's an easy to use software, even since you used it before. It just needs practice. Give me a shout should you require any help or have any difficulties.

    Where is the best (cheapest) place to buy all the wood and hardware from ?

    Ive just moved to australia recently, my partner and here family are australian and i have been introduced to the "Bunnings Mania", but i found more hardware places like home hardware, whuch were not very helpfull etc etc.....

    Which is the best place ?

    thanks

    stefan

  12. #12
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    R U from Melbourne?
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  13. #13
    stefan
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    I live in melbourne yes !

    But i am from Malta. I live in St kilda Area

    stefan

  14. #14
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    My sister in law is from Malta.
    Call Major Timber in Clayton. They are very helpful. They also have most of the hardware. But best to ask for prices first and compare. Their stuff is good.

    Cheers,
    Dr - 307.

    P.S. I'll let you know how I go with Autocad.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  15. #15
    stefan
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    i have another small question.

    regarding concrete..... i have 12 posts to put in..... do you think that i will be ok to use raedy mix concrete to fill them it ? will just concrete around them be enough ? do i need to concrete the fence posts too? is there a need to put anything underneath the posts, inside the hole ?

    thanks

    stefan

  16. #16
    Senior Member Burnsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan_bonnici View Post
    i have another small question.

    regarding concrete..... i have 12 posts to put in..... do you think that i will be ok to use raedy mix concrete to fill them it ? will just concrete around them be enough ? do i need to concrete the fence posts too? is there a need to put anything underneath the posts, inside the hole ?

    thanks

    stefan
    Decking Stirups
    Don't use rapid set, using premixed concrete you buy in a bag is OK but mix it with water in a barrow first, don't just stick it in the hole and add water. Make sure there is at least 100mm of concrete under the post and you should be right.

    Fence Posts
    If they are steel, concrete them in the same as above. Some people like to concrete in timber, others say steer clear of it as it can hold water and cause rotting. I like concrete but ultimately it is your choice.

  17. #17
    stefan
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    thanks for that i think i will concrete all of them and maybe paint the fence posts prior to putting then in concrete !!

    now to the hard bit..... removing the old fence posts ....

    any idea how ?

    thanks

  18. #18
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    most come out when you dig down beside it about shovel width ...then move em back and forth till they "feel" loose .....then put a pinch bar into the bottom rail hole ...support the tip on a couple of bricks ....and lift

  19. #19
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Stefan,
    Fence posts - directly into concrete. Painting them first is also a good idea.
    Deck stumps - use stirrups to support the deck stumps.

    Cheers,
    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  20. #20
    Senior Member brynk's Avatar
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    gday bloke

    not sure the type of fence posts you need to remove - if they are the concrete ones you can't go past an engine hoist to do the job. you can hire one (don't tellem what yer gonna use it for!)

    be sure to put it on the 2t setting otherwise you will bend the jib (yes, i speak from experience ) add a metre of chain to the hook; lower the jib right as low as it will go then wrap the bulk of the chain around the base of the concrete stump then return it back to the hook.

    once you get into the swing of it you can do 10 metres of fenceline in about 1/2 an hour.

    r's brynk
    "Man got the opposable thumb - woman got four opposable fingers." - Rowdy

  21. #21
    rob
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    As you said it was an appartment have you checked with the strata company as you may find that you do not own you garden and that it is zoned exclusive useonly .I would hate for you to build it and have to remove it i went though a hell of a time to get a patio for my appartment .
    rob .
    p.s have you seen / used google sketch up it great for doing plans ? and simple to use and free to down load .

  22. #22
    stefan
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    Yes i checked that already but Fourtunatley enough our coutyard is on the title so we own it. The reason why im changing the fence myself aswell is that the fence iss not touching any neighbours but it divides a path way to our back apartment and by the time i go thriugh all body corporate crap ill be better off doing it myself and get it done and over

    ANOTHER QUESTION FOR ALL YOU GUYS "Joining Bearers"

    I know its been tackled many times, but here is the question i am bolting my beareres to the posts and i know im not gonna find 1 whole length of timber 8M long so which is the best way to join the bearers ? (Bearers are 140X45) over the post using a 'Z' type joint ?


    great help is always appreciated.

    stefan.

  23. #23
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Looking at your plan you can cover the first four stumps (three bearer spans) with a 4800mm piece and the last three stumps (two bearer spans) with a 3600mm piece. Both bearers will 'butt join' over the fourth stump therefore both lengths of timber will share the fourth stump.
    Your stumps need to be housed out to hold the bearers. It's outside so you need galvanised hardware like nuts and bolts.

    Do yourself a favour and go to Bunnings and buy the book "Deck and Pergolas" by Alan Staines. You will get a lot of questions answered from this book. Otherwise you will have too many questions and you will be waiting for the forum to answer them. Everybody wants to help but it is difficult trying to explain in writing what a great book can explain in pictures. That's how I built my first one and I've now built close to 20.

    Get the book!!!

    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  24. #24
    stefan
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    Default Finally Started

    its been a while since my last post but i was a bit busy building my small project. The first phase is ready, and i have now a new fence. next will be the deck for which i already have the posts in, and next will follow the bearers, ledger and joist and finally deck the whole lot.

    I am attaching some photos on my progress. i am still in doubt if to use 140x45 or 90x45 for the joists and bearers, since clearance from the ground is a bit limited. any advice is appreciated.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails old-fence.jpg   posts-place.jpg   rails-fixed.jpg   finished-fence.jpg   finished-fence-2.jpg  

    new-posts.jpg  

  25. #25
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Good stuff. Well on your way.
    Just a question, what is the area between your fence and the neighbours fence? Some sort of access is it?

    As far as the joists go you have to use the 140 x 45. 90 x 45 to too light for the 1800 span. What type of timber are u going to use for the joists?

    Cheers,
    Doc.
    Last edited by Dr - 307; 11th Mar 2008 at 12:47 PM. Reason: additional info - joists.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  26. #26
    stefan
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    THANKS

    Yes the space between my fence and the neighbour is an acces path for the next appartment at the back.

    as regarding timber i will be using treated pine 140X45 or 120X45 mgp 10 i think it is called.

    with 140 i will be very close to the ground at the far end and i am affariad of water being trapped behind the joist.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan_bonnici View Post
    THANKS

    with 140 i will be very close to the ground at the far end and i am affariad of water being trapped behind the joist.
    dig a small trench and lay aggi pipe to carry any excess water away if you think it may cause a problem later ...better to put this in now than rip it all up later for repairs

  28. #28
    stefan
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    i manage to find some usefull span tables for timber joists used in floors and balconies.

    for my deck, joists span 1650mm between ledger and bearers and bearere spans 2200mm between posts and has 300mm cantilever on each sides.

    according to these tables i can use 140X45 mgp10 for bearer and ledger and 120X45 mgp10 for joists at 450mm spacing.

    hope you all find this file usefull and helpfull

    thanks

    stefan
    Attached Files Attached Files

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