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HandRail Shakes, how to make it stop? This questions relates to timber stairs from timber deck at level 1 to ground, if I am posting it in wrong section, apologies and please get it moved to the right area.
Recently got the 13 steps timber stair repaired which was falling apart as the lower posts were rotting and of the post was not done correctly. See below, both bottom posts replaced.
Now the hand rail on the right (coming down) or away from the house (looking at the photo) shakes left and right by 15-20degrees wiggle. It is strong to hold down wards pressure, but left right strength is bit shake.
On the right/inner handrail or left (coming down) there is no shake as there a 90mm post that is supporting the deck above and touches the handrail.
What is the best way to fix it from the following for the outside hand rail;
- Half way the stringer on the outside, put a 90mm post from the ground on stirrup to the top of the handrail and nail/bolt to the stringer and screw to the handrail.
- Half way the stringer on the outside, put a 90mm post on the foot step cut into the stringer with brackets, and the top of the post screwed to the handrail.
- Something else?
I did called an aluminium fabricator to get opinion if replacing the timber handrail with metal might give it strength, and was advised that since there is a wiggle on the bottom 120mm post on stirrup, metal handrail will not do anything.
Got a side view?
Assuming the previous repairer installed the stirrups at ground level ?
Should have used high wind anchors to support the newel post better.
https://pryda.com.au/product/high-wind-post-anchors/
Will post tomorrow morning. Should have thought about it.Originally Posted by Uncle Bob
Unfortunately, the repair guys did not, should I try to ask them to rip out whats in there now or try to fix the handrail only?
Those stirrups provide limited support to post from a bending action, the newel post has no support at the top and will place a bending action on the stirrup causing the wobble or shake.
Using an anchor that provides correct support to the newel post is the fix for the shaking.
Thanks droog, but a dumb question, can you explain or tell me what is an anchor to support the newel post? What do I ask the guy to do next in simple terms?
I gotta say, 15-20 degrees 'shake' seems like a lot of 'wiggle'! Does the newel post itself move that much, or mainly the handrail mostly at its halfway point?
Assuming the latter, and to avoid redoing anything already redone, I'd do #2.
I'd use a gal steel 90x90x2 post into the ground. If not steel, use KD structural H4 treated pine with the concrete footing sloping away from the post
Edit: Re-reading, there's lots of movement at the post itself. Could also replace it with gal steel or suitable timber as above. May also be achieved by a high wind stirrup. "may"...
Follow the link I posted in #3
The newel posts are the bottom posts on the handrail.
As the post has no support at the top it needs proper support at the bottom, the left handrail has a post halfway with support from the deck above, the right one does not have support and is the cause of the shaking. Supporting the post from sideways bending is the solution that is not provided by normal post stirrup.
add a 90 x 90 post in the middle (at the same point as the opposite side), concrete it in the ground
Remember if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing
Re-checked it, maybe 15-20 was wrong to mention, shake is about 5-7 degrees mostly in the middle. Newel post is strong with only a minor shake if moved.
Here, hope this give better idea.
So putting a 90x90 post in the middle to sit on the step and cut into the stringer with bolts and bracket will not do the job?
Does the 90x90 post must go into the ground and this time no stirrup or high wind achors, but straight into the ground with concrete?
If I go with ground concrete, how much length of the post needs to be in the ground? 300mm/500mm/1000mmm.
Here is the side that shakes.
Re-checked, the shake is mainly in the middle and about 5-10 degrees max.
Will resting a 90x90 post on the middle step cut into the stringer with bolts and brackets not achieve the same or the post has to go to the ground?
If it has to go to the ground, how much length of the post needs to be in the ground i.e. 200mm/500mm/1000mm etc?
You need two fixed points to hold the moving point.
Ground and step are the two fixed points. Rail is the moving point.
Of course you could fix both handrails together with a 4x2, but it will make it very uncomfortable to go up or down the stairs
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
Confucius
Thank Marc, are you suggesting a 4x2 instead of 90x90 from the ground? And does it needs to go in the ground or a stirrup/high wind achor?You need two fixed points to hold the moving point.
Ground and step are the two fixed points. Rail is the moving point.
Of course you could fix both handrails together with a 4x2, but it will make it very uncomfortable to go up or down the stairs
I think Marc is suggesting this:
No Saturn, only some humor.
Have a 90x90 go from a stirrup in the ground to the side of the stringer and to the rail, in the center of the rail This will stop the movement.
A short post from stringer to rail will achieve little
Joining both handrail will make it nice and solid but you will not like it
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
Confucius
Actually that would be good in the middle for sure, I just need to learn to be olympic jumper while using the stairsI think Marc is suggesting this:
Thanks droog for the effort to draw it out for me, kind off look cool lock at the bottom in a way, lol
You are correct, I won't likeNo Saturn, only some humor.
Have a 90x90 go from a stirrup in the ground to the side of the stringer and to the rail, in the center of the rail This will stop the movement.
A short post from stringer to rail will achieve little
Joining both handrail will make it nice and solid but you will not like it
But I did enjoy the joke, was not sure,
In NZ barrier posts have to be at 1 metre spacing max to meet our building code yet you still see pictures of stairs with a post at top and bottom..
You could have steel (e.g. angle or RHS) fabricated to create a large L shape which runs under a central rung at the deck post, fixed to both stringers, and runs up the outside, fixed to underside of the handrail
'Twas me I'd be putting a post in the ground opposite the existing porch/veranda post and tieing both posts together with a nice solid beam for visual effect. Use a solid H-4 post at least 600mm into the ground and fix that to the handrail somehow, notching in or a decent stainless steel bracket
"A big boy did it and ran away"
Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.
I did a metal fabrication guys and asked for aluminium handrail on the RHS and as said that will not help because your bottom post has room to wiggle. So I dropped that idea, but are you saying not aluminium but steel handrail?
Thanks Moondog55, so 600mm into the ground with concrete sounds more solid so it is just a last decision between ground or stirrup. The guy who did the bottom post insists on stirrup only, not sure if that is less work for him or what?
Maybe he could only get H3 posts at the time, you can't [ or shouldn't] use H-3 for in ground as it rots in about 5 to 10 years depending on how wet it gets.
I've had no problems with H-4 posts in ground although some I have also used bitumen emulsion on for a tiny added extra.
Use a bigger pole like 140*140 and deeper in the ground and you could maybe also use it as a shade sail anchor.
"A big boy did it and ran away"
Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.
I'm not talking about replacing the handrail. I thought I explained it pretty well
It's an L shape which runs from the inside post, under a central rung and up the outside to attach to the handrail.
Like this, but under the stairs
Thanks Moondog55 for extra details.
Thanks r3nov8or for more details and the drawing, I am new to all this and learning........ I thought I explained it pretty well
It's an L shape which runs from the inside post, under a central rung and up the outside to attach to the handrail.
Like this, but under the stairs
I think I know where the confusion came from. When you say RHS you are saying Right Hand Side, but when I used RHS I was referring to Rectangular Hollow SteelThanks r3nov8or for more details and the drawing, I am new to all this and learning
I would use galvanised steel. Probably steel angle. I'm just not sure welded aluminium would stand the test of time. Eg if someone fell heavily on the rail pushing it outwards, would an aluminium weld hold up?
You solution is to prevent the newel post on the right hand side from moving from side to side:
The reason it does not happen on the other side is because it has a post half way up the handrail which is tied to the deck above, supporting the handrail.
The post stirrups at the bottom of the newel posts support them height wise and keep them clear of the ground but do not provide much support to the post for side to side movement.
Your metal fabricator was right in that an aluminium or steel handrail will not solve the issue, it is not the handrail that is the issue it is that support is not being provided to the handrail moving from side to side.
The solution could be fabricated from aluminium, steel, wood or even plastic, it simply has to stop the top of the newel post (and the handrail) from moving from side to side.
This statement earlier is why there's some focus on stabilising the centre of the handrail
.Re-checked it, maybe 15-20 was wrong to mention, shake is about 5-7 degrees mostly in the middle. Newel post is strong with only a minor shake if moved
The length of the handrail amplifies the effect, adding support at the mid point works as demonstrated on the left hand side shows this. Adding additional support at the newel post will also have an impact at the mid point.
The mid point support should be as simple as dropping a post to ground with a normal post stirrup into concrete, if it is connected to top and bottom of the handrail there is no bending moment at the stirrup only sideways movement.
Of course if you want the area clear under the steps by all means create an L shaped structural bracket, but the solution is really just about supporting a clearly un-supported structure.
.
I believe the best solution is to place a SHS 100x100x6 at 45 degrees from the rail into a 1m3 concrete block footing in the ground.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
Confucius
I thought you'd recommend an elevatorI believe the best solution is to place a SHS 100x100x6 at 45 degrees from the rail into a 1m3 concrete block footing in the ground.
If the elevator shaft is placed next to the outside stringer then it will stabilise the handrail.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
Confucius
I did say I am new to renovation jobs...When you say RHS you are saying Right Hand Side, but when I used RHS I was referring to Rectangular Hollow Steel
I would use galvanised steel. Probably steel angle. I'm just not sure welded aluminium would stand the test of time. Eg if someone fell heavily on the rail pushing it outwards, would an aluminium weld hold up?
Thanks Marc, prefer to stick with timber for post to avoid rusting and repainting of the metal.I believe the best solution is to place a SHS 100x100x6 at 45 degrees from the rail into a 1m3 concrete block footing in the ground.
Now that is seriously an alternative, to get rid of the stairs and put an elevator 1.5m sq solar operated with back up battery
I like my idea best but an elevator would make it wheelchair friendly
"A big boy did it and ran away"
Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.
Everyone's suggestion were great and I wish my original guy who put the post would done a better job and not use stirrups.
90*90 is enough if not using it to support a shade sail, but your call on the elevator
"A big boy did it and ran away"
Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.
If the post needs to support the handrail from bottom, then the handrail itself is 88mm wide. How will they cut the side stringer and step into 90mm post to make sure there is enough wood left outside the stringer on the post by the time they finish? Or you are saying, just stick the 90x90 post from outside the stringer to just touch the side of the handrail is enough?
As for the elevator,
Saturn ... the fact of the matter is that your stairs build is lacking. Whatever you or the carpenter do to remedy, it will not be invisible.
To integrate a post strong enough to stop the sideways flex, and at the same time appear to be part of the original build, is not easy.
It's not the matter of what size or section of timber to use, rather how to anchor it to a solid point and how to achieve solidity in the tip of the post.
Because the outside string has no middle post, you can either add one from ground to rail, or you can brace a short post from under the stairs relaying on the long post on the opposite string.
Both are add ons that will be unsightly and an obvious afterthought.
To make this repair integrated to the rest of the stairs, it will most likely require redesign and rebuild the railing.
In other words, you can use a 90x90 bolted on the ground to a concreted stirrup, bolted sideways to the stringer and bolted to the side of the hand rail. Easy and ugly solution.
You can try to finesse a cross member under the stairs from the post opposite and brace it to a short post also on the outside and ugly. This can be done in steel with some ingenuity, and be less bulky.
Or you can get the outside railing rebuild by a professional.
A note on the bolting to the post in my ugly solution: If it is not possible to bolt the post to the stringer and the handrail because the outside do not line up on a vertical plane, bolts can have spacers in the form of short sections of 1/2" galvanised pipe to line them up and still be able to tighten the bolt.
Second note: Do you have kids? If so, find a larger and longer post to place on the outside as per above, yet add a basketball board to it as a disguise.
I hope this helps.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
Confucius
I like that, even if no kids it works for me
"A big boy did it and ran away"
Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.
Check the existing one on the other side for how it was done.
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