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Bearers and joists

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  1. #1
    The Worshipful Woodworker
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    Default Bearers and joists

    I'm designing a (small) house for my block at Bemboka. Two storey, 8,000mm x 10,000mm out of timbercrete. I'd appreciate some input on bearers and joists for the the second level tongue and groove floor. I'm after a really minimulist look - so upstairs floor is the downstairs ceiling and the timberwork is all exposed.

    Anyone had much to do with this ? My problem is what (if any) bearers will spand 8000mm, what centres they would need to be and what joists would work.

    Any comments or ideas greatfully received.

  2. #2
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    If you need to ask about bearers and joists for the upstairs, you are out of your league.
    Get some proffesional help, I.E, a builder.
    Same for spans of 8 metres.

    Al :eek:

  3. #3
    Senior Member DavidG's Avatar
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    Hey Al. Occasionally you actually say something sensible.
    You must be getting old and having senior moments.
    For the best results I use -

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidG
    Hey Al. Occasionally you actually say something sensible.
    You must be getting old and having senior moments.
    Ok,ok, am I the pot or the kettle??

    Al

  5. #5
    Senior Member DavidG's Avatar
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    Ok,ok, am I the pot or the kettle??
    Me looks down and has trouble seeing toes. Thinks "I am the pot" (bellied) therefore you must be the kettle.
    For the best results I use -

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidG
    therefore you must be the kettle.
    Sorry, but I am a teapot.

    Al

  7. #7
    Building Designer ausdesign's Avatar
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    I agree with Al. Only trying to be helpful but I've never come across exposed bearers & joists - exposed joists yes. and if your asking the question then you should speak to someone.
    Hyspan 400*63 joists at 450 centres will span 8.2 without loadbearing walls above - i.e. a truss roof - but it will require blocking between the joists to prevent twisting.
    Peter Clarkson

    www.ausdesign.com.au

    This information is intended to provide general information only.
    It does not purport to be a comprehensive advice.

  8. #8
    Senior Member DavidG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozwinner
    Sorry, but I am a teapot.

    Al
    Ok. That make me the Kettle. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
    For the best results I use -

  9. #9
    The Worshipful Woodworker
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    Thanks Peter. Sorry I didn't get the jargon all correct. Thought the idea was to be able to ask for help here. I have read a bit about Hyspan - for rough budgeting purposes what should I allow for them ?

  10. #10
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    Rude buggers, aren't they

    Bemboka is about half an hour from where I live, up in the foothills of Brown Mountain. Getting a bit trendy up there

    While hyspan will do the job, it's not going to be very pretty from underneath. I also wonder about noise if you're going to be looking at the bottom of the floorboards. Maybe you could use Hybeam instead and line the underneath with tongue and groove panel or something.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  11. #11
    Building Designer ausdesign's Avatar
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    No hurt intended. I tried to phrase the reply sensitively.
    Hyspan is the main product I have knowledge of & am comfortable with specifying for extremely long spans. Shorter spans I would be looking at F17 seasoned hardwood.
    Other alternatives are posi-joists or running a bearer (beam) to break up the span to enable smaller joists (lesser span) to be used but in both of the above, being an exposed ceiling I would go for a deep joist to make the appearance ok. - You would possibly be looking at a steel H section as a bearer to span 8 met.
    If there are walls on the lower storey that you can span from, then F17 may be an option. -240*35 F17 will span 4800, 300*50 F7 oregon will span approx.4800.
    The main consideration I would be looking at with deep jiosts is to use a seasoned timber for shrinkage reasons.
    Peter Clarkson

    www.ausdesign.com.au

    This information is intended to provide general information only.
    It does not purport to be a comprehensive advice.

  12. #12
    dubadubadubaduba.... TassieKiwi's Avatar
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    Default Beers and joints

    ..well that's what I first thought it read.
    The only way to get rid of a [Domino] temptation is to yield to it. Oscar Wilde

    .....so go4it people!

  13. #13
    The Worshipful Woodworker
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    The concept is to have the lower area as large as possible. We can run a wall across at 3000 - making two spans of 5000 and 3000. But the ideal was to make all internal walls non-load bearing so we could move them around later as the house grew.

    It's a matter of economics I suppose - whether steal bearers and "smaller" joists (that would give me exposed bearers and joists wouldn't it !) would be more economical than simply large joists.

    Have you had any experience in working out the economics of this ?

    With regard to noise - we're really not worried at this stage as it's just the starting point for a larger house when we retire.

    Thanks for your constructive comments.

  14. #14
    Building Designer ausdesign's Avatar
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    Bemboka, another aspect to take into account is the bracing requirements for the lower storey.
    As an example for a site classified as an N2 wind category there needs to be walls with bracing calculated on the length and height of the external walls at 9 met spacings at right angles to the wind direction. i.e. at right angles to the long & short side of the home. The type of bracing must attain a specified level of Kn resistance in both directions. This may sound more complicated than it is, but basically it would be nearly impossible to design a home 8m*10m without structurally braced lower storey internal walls. Food for thought with your lower storey layout.
    Peter Clarkson

    www.ausdesign.com.au

    This information is intended to provide general information only.
    It does not purport to be a comprehensive advice.

  15. #15
    The Worshipful Woodworker
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    Good point - that's where discussions like this are a good opportunity to learn. I suppose I could go 9,000 x 8,000 instead of 10,000 x 8,000 if that simplified things. The later was somewhat of an arbitrary starting position anyway.

    By the way - the load bearing walls will be "Timbercrete" - which are 400mm x 200 x 180 mm load bearing blocks.

  16. #16
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    the load bearing walls will be "Timbercrete"
    Is that the stuff that guy spruiks at Candelo markets?
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ausdesign
    I tried to phrase the reply sensitively.
    Me too.

    Al

  18. #18
    The Worshipful Woodworker
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    Default Timbercrete

    Not sure about Candelo - the supplier I spoke with is from Nowra. I've spoken to a few people and checked out some structures made from it. It seems to be as good as it reads.

  19. #19
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    Sorry, I looked it up after I posted that. Different stuff. The guy at Candelo makes it himself.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  20. #20
    The Worshipful Woodworker
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    Hope it doesn't get too trendy. We're moving there to get away from that sort of junk. Can you recommend any good concretors around that area ?

  21. #21
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    Hope it doesn't get too trendy
    Nah, tongue in cheek. Seems to be a retirement destination for a lot of people from up your way though. For a place the size of Bemboka (pop. couldn't be more than a couple of hundred) it seems to get mentioned a lot.

    Regarding concretors, the guy I used only does shed slabs and I had to twist his arm to get him to do my place. I've got the number of another guy who a builder mate of mine uses all the time and he's a fussy bugger. I'll try and dig it out and PM you.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

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