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Nail type for particle board subfloor installation

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  1. #1
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    Default Nail type for particle board subfloor installation

    Hi,

    Got about 100m2 of particle board (yellow tongue) to install onto +100 year old hardwood joists. Read the manufacturer installation guide which recommends the use of 50-65x2.5mm D head nails when machine driven into hardwood (I have a Hikoki framing nailer). Instructions also haven a footnote to use galvanised nails designated for wet areas. My question is, what is the best shank type in terms of holding power for this application? Looks like the options are smooth (which will be a bit rough with a hot dip gal coating), ring shank (seems to be for softwoods), or screw shank (Paslode brochure says better holding power in hardwood but I have doubts based on some of the posts here). I will be using a suitable glue too. The other option is to screw and glue, but that might take an eternity.

    Cheers

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    If your joists are 100 year old HW then you might might need to consider welding it down.

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    Interested to follow the replies. I will be needing to do something similar in the near future. I was planning on glue and screw as I don't have a nailer.

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    Just did one like that a few months ago. i just liquid nail it and use 50mm framing nails for hardwood. Put 5 nails per joist and 6 on the ends. Come in about 30mm - 50mm from the edge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sol381 View Post
    Just did one like that a few months ago. i just liquid nail it and use 50mm framing nails for hardwood. Put 5 nails per joist and 6 on the ends. Come in about 30mm - 50mm from the edge.
    Thanks for the tips. I’ll likely do the same but use Bostik Ultraset instead. Other option I’ve looked at is to hire a screw gun. Since it’s a cut in floor, by the time I’ve stuffed about measuring and cutting, my offsider might have time to screw a sheet down (and make a brew). Only considering screws because in a previous place the floor was glued and nailed and it started squeaking a few years later. No subfloor access so just had to live with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stinkalot View Post
    Interested to follow the replies. I will be needing to do something similar in the near future. I was planning on glue and screw as I don't have a nailer.
    Will let you know what is used in the end. Might hire a collated screw gun to speed things up if we go that route.

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    Maybe a bit late but to add my 2 cents, I did this a number of years ago and had no end of trouble with the heads of the screws snapping off if I didn't pre- drill the joists (incidentally same issue with plasterboard screws in the walls)

    Right or wrong I wound up hand driving concrete nails as everything else would bend and the cheap nailer I had at the time wouldn't sink them all the way no matter what I did

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith View Post
    Will let you know what is used in the end. Might hire a collated screw gun to speed things up if we go that route.
    Good luck, if it's seasoned hardwood it will be like steel, so nailing is the best option, as you will probably snap more screws than you screw in,
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDub View Post
    Maybe a bit late but to add my 2 cents, I did this a number of years ago and had no end of trouble with the heads of the screws snapping off if I didn't pre- drill the joists (incidentally same issue with plasterboard screws in the walls)

    Right or wrong I wound up hand driving concrete nails as everything else would bend and the cheap nailer I had at the time wouldn't sink them all the way no matter what I did
    Thanks PDub. Now that you mention it, I recall have the same issue installing batten clips in some old hardwood ceiling joists a few years ago. I bought the gun specifically to drive nails into hardwood so hopefully it works as advertised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Good luck, if it's seasoned hardwood it will be like steel, so nailing is the best option, as you will probably snap more screws than you screw in,
    Thanks METRIX. I'm assuming regular bright or maybe electro-gal nails are the go when used in combination with Ultraset or similar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith View Post
    I bought the gun specifically to drive nails into hardwood so hopefully it works as advertised.
    What gun did you get ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    What gun did you get ?
    I ended up getting a Hikoki 18V framing gun. It was that or an air gun. A deal came up on this one so that's what I ended up with.

    https://hikokipowertools.com.au/cord...raming-nailer/

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    Probably the best all round framer you can buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith View Post
    I ended up getting a Hikoki 18V framing gun. It was that or an air gun. A deal came up on this one so that's what I ended up with.

    https://hikokipowertools.com.au/cord...raming-nailer/
    Nice gun, as Sol said probably the best framer out there, as well as the 18V Milwaukee.

    What deal did you get, I was looking at getting one of the Hitachi or Milwalkee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Nice gun, as Sol said probably the best framer out there, as well as the 18V Milwaukee.

    What deal did you get, I was looking at getting one of the Hitachi or Milwalkee.
    I got a combo from Sydney Tools because I needed a finishing gun too. After selling the redemption item and the included saw I didn't need, it wasn't much more than the Milwaukee battery and framing gun only combo. The framing guns seem to be more or less the same from what I can tell.

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    Is Hikoki the same as Hitachi? Oh yes, +Koki ... what chance is there to drive nails in hardwood? I had a few occasions I needed to do that and tried with an air nail gun that shoots like a bazooka and ... no luck. It drove the nail halfway and bounced or bent the nail. Maybe with a shorter steel nail or concreting nails?

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    i have all milwaukee tools so will probably get a milwaukee gun.. Judging by the tests done it is the most powerful and pretty quick, but heavy. The finishing guns have a major fault so just waiting to see if the framer is the same. Not sure why hitachi changed its name. hikoki doesnt sound as good. 50mm framing nails will go into hardwood. 75 will struggle. 50mm is more than enough for yellow tongue.

    Metrix. As much as i like milwaukee i wouldnt get a milwaukee finshing gun. Ive got 3 dead ones at home. great when they work but they just seem to break down. As for the framer, its a beast but it is pretty heavy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sol381 View Post
    Not sure why hitachi changed its name. hikoki doesnt sound as good
    Here's how, it's become very confusing.

    Hitachi Koki is the powertool division of Hitachi Ltd, in 2016 Hitachi bought Metabo power tools, then in 2017 Hitachi Koki was purchased by KKP (Henry Kravis investment firm)

    After the buyout, KKP decided to change the name to Koki Holdings and also decided to change the name to HIKOKI as part of a world wide rebranding.

    Metabo in Australia is still called Metabo, but in North America they decided to change the Metabo name to Metabo HPT which doesn't make sense as the tools are completely different with no interchangeability of parts batteries etc ???
    The industry has said it's a bad move as all it's done is confused the customers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Is Hikoki the same as Hitachi? Oh yes, +Koki ... what chance is there to drive nails in hardwood? I had a few occasions I needed to do that and tried with an air nail gun that shoots like a bazooka and ... no luck. It drove the nail halfway and bounced or bent the nail. Maybe with a shorter steel nail or concreting nails?
    What was the wood species, Marc? I don't think the stuff in my place is al that hard. When I was pulling up the floorboards the prybar dinged up the edge of the joists pretty easily. Maybe it's Vic Ash or one of the softer hardwoods. I've got some scrap joists and studs that I can shoot a few nails into to test out the gun.

  20. #20
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    Probably yellow box or tallow wood, 50 years old. Hard as steel

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    Quote Originally Posted by sol381 View Post
    Metrix. As much as i like milwaukee i wouldnt get a milwaukee finshing gun. Ive got 3 dead ones at home. great when they work but they just seem to break down. As for the framer, its a beast but it is pretty heavy.
    Ahh, I was just investigating these finish guns and discovered the Milwaukee gun uses the technology that was in the Senco Fusion gun ie Sealed compressed gas.
    I can understand now why you have 3 failed units, I had the Senco Fusion guns, it was the biggest piece of shyte finish gun I ever owned (even worse than Paslode).

    I am looking for a new finish gun as my third paslode finish gun decided to give up today and I don't want to get another Paslode finish nailer, they are a temperamental POS.

    So looking at the Hitachi combo kit, as I can see also having a battery powered framer can have advantages when working on days like maybe Sundays when you want to do some work and don't want to disturb the neighbours.
    The Paslode framer is a fantastic gun, it just works, but can be very loud.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith View Post
    I got a combo from Sydney Tools because I needed a finishing gun too. After selling the redemption item and the included saw I didn't need, it wasn't much more than the Milwaukee battery and framing gun only combo. The framing guns seem to be more or less the same from what I can tell.
    Few questions, as I'm looking at these now.

    Did you get the angled or straight finish gun ?

    Does the finisher leave a big hole where the nail is driven
    From some reviews it looks like there is an unusually large hole left behind, sort of like the drive pin has hit the timber.
    These guns use the C1 brads and should only leave around a 2mm hole in the timber.

    Do you find the guns heavy ?
    This seems to be a complaint about them

    Does the finish gun have a stupidly big rafter hook on it ?
    This again seems to be a complaint, as why do you need a full sized rafter hook on a finish gun !!!

    Did they both come with full sized boxes ?
    It appears these guns come with a full height sortimo type box, which seems crazy big for one tool.
    I don't have any room left to store what tools I already have, let alone two full height boxes, this seems like an afterthought, can you fit both guns in one box at the same time ?

    I can't see any deal with an included circ saw and redemption, but there is a $419 circ saw via redemption if purchase over $1299.
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    Did you get the angled or straight finish gun ?
    Angled 15 gauge.

    Does the finisher leave a big hole where the nail is driven
    Haven't tried the finish gun yet. Will grab a few nails this weekend and try it out. Are you referring to the 18ga gun leaving large holes?

    Do you find the guns heavy ?
    Yes, they are a bit heavy - particularly compared to an air gun. For the jobs I need to do, the weight isn't going to be an issue. If I was going to use it all day everyday, I'd probably get something else. I wanted something relatively quiet to use so that was a factor also.

    Does the finish gun have a stupidly big rafter hook on it ?
    The hook on the framing gun is quite big - maybe 90-100mm wide. The one on the finishing gun is much smaller, only about 45mm wide. I'd prefer a simple belt clip. Other thing about the hook that I don't like is that it's on the right side of the gun when viewed from above and I don't think it can be changed (could be wrong).

    Did they both come with full sized boxes ?
    Not the combo that I bought. See below. I was thinking the same regarding the box being huge and whether both guns would fit in the one. I'm just a weekend/weeknight DIY user so transporting the stuff didn't factor.

    Deal
    I think the deal I got has finished. It was called CHIPPYCOMBO4. $1499 for framer, angled finish, 2x5ah, charger, 165mm circular saw, plus redemption offer.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith View Post
    Did you get the angled or straight finish gun ?
    Angled 15 gauge.


    Did they both come with full sized boxes ?
    Not the combo that I bought. See below. I was thinking the same regarding the box being huge and whether both guns would fit in the one. I'm just a weekend/weeknight DIY user so transporting the stuff didn't factor.

    Deal
    I think the deal I got has finished. It was called CHIPPYCOMBO4. $1499 for framer, angled finish, 2x5ah, charger, 165mm circular saw, plus redemption offer.
    So are you saying the deal came with one carry box, or no carry box, if it came with a box was it the larger box and do both guns fit in the one box ?
    I had a look at the framer today the rafter hook is HUGE but well designed as you leave it closed and you can hook it on your tool belt, then open and it will hook over a double timber



    I found the same COMBO4 in stock at ST Alexandria today, but other outlets also stock the same kit
    I'm was a bit torn to get the kit with the straight finisher, as I have a shyte load of nails for it left over from the rubbish Paslode finisher, which I am now finished with if I never see another one I won't be disappointed.

    I found another kit that has the framer and a DA bradder, the kit is the same price but no extra tool included, you do still get the redemption for an additional tool.

    It comes with 2 x 5.0A batteries, 2 x carry boxes and one charger, the two carry boxes and one charger thing is a bit weird, if you don't have both tools with you it will always happen the charger is in the other box.
    I would prefer if both guns fit in one box, or a soft carry bag for both guns to live in would be ideal.

    This is the kit I would probably get as I already have Hitachi pneumatic DA bradders, you can get DA nails from 25mm to 65mm and they are cheap.

    You may find it harder to get angled brad nails on their own, the ones Bunnings sell are Paslode, and come with Gas so you pay a lot more for them and wouldn't use the gas.
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    Default Nail type for particle board subfloor installation

    No box.

    lk

  26. #26
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    So I picked up the combo kit, I went for the DA finisher.

    Nice guns, the framer has a lot of power, more than the Paslode, it drives nails deeper than the Paslode, and there is still more adjustment to go even further.
    It's so much quieter than the Paslode, the DA finisher is nice, has a good adjustment of the depth, and only leaves a hole slightly bigger then the Paslode finish gun.

    It has a much sturdier soft nose than the Paslode, I like the sequential fire mode, especially on the framer, the instructions say this feature has been disabled for New Zealand models.
    Sounds like too many rules and regulations over there.

    The framer has a good sharp nose so it digs into the timber really easy.

    Only two complaints.

    The bradder has the hook on the wrong side for a right handed person, it's funny because you can see the mounting holes for the hook on the other side of the tool under the magazine.

    I loosened the magazine and tried to put the hook on the other side but the magazine wont go back into position, I think this is a design fault ?
    It can be easily fixed with an additional bracket that allows the existing hook to be mounted, I guess you just have to get used to it.

    You can hook it onto your belt but the gun just seems to be in the wrong direction if you hook it on the right side.

    The carry boxes are a bit gumby, they have been designed to fit in with the sortimo type clip system, the book shows these boxes or a blow mould version, I would have preferred the blow mould version similar to the Paslode.
    The boxes are too big just for one tool, and you cant fit both tools in the one box.

    I will look for a soft bag, I thought about having them both in the same bag, but might be better to have two smaller bags rather than one larger one..
    They do both fit into my Makita trimmer soft bag, which is really well padded, only thing is the guns have to sit on top of each other, the box is something I think Hitachi could have done a better job with.



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    Default Nail type for particle board subfloor installation

    You go through a lot of tools Metrix! Lol

    I'm not in the trade but have used the Paslode gas powered Framer and Bradder before.

    From what I see, Paslode's only competitive advantage was being cordless. Basically every chippy had one. Now with battery, I wonder if Paslode will continue to be popular in future.

    I'm sure the a large % of their profitability came from selling consumables, not just the tools.

    lk

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    Nice pickup Metrix. The DA bradder is a good choice. Don't really see the need for 16ga or 18ga nailers. It seems that paslode may get left behind with the no gas battery only guns. Both the hikoki and milwaukee are more powerful but the cost of gas adds up fast. On an average job we can use 4 to 6 gas fuel cells each for framer and bradder. At $20 each it adds up fast.

    JB1. havent you heard the saying. You can never have enough tools.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1 View Post
    You go through a lot of tools Metrix! Lol

    I'm not in the trade but have used the Paslode gas powered Framer and Bradder before.

    From what I see, Paslode's only competitive advantage was being cordless. Basically every chippy had one. Now with battery, I wonder if Paslode will continue to be popular in future.

    I'm sure the a large % of their profitability came from selling consumables, not just the tools.

    lk
    Yes, but like anything if you need it to make a living you really have no choice but to buy it, and it all gets written of in tax anyway.

    I have been looking at replacing the Paslode for a while, and there is the current redemption from Hikoi on at the moment that jsmith alerted me to.
    With the purchase of these guns at $1499, I chose the 36V circular saw valued at $389 as the redemption.

    So I either sell it and probably get $280 - $300 for it so it brings the purchase price down to around $1100 for both guns, or I keep it if it's ok.
    It should be ok as it's a 36V version, I have some 18V cordless circ saws and they are a bit gutless, so I still prefer a 240V version.

    A new Paslode framer cost $899, and a finisher $899, so the two Hitachi even at $1499 is good value plus a free $389 circ saw.
    They come with a 6 year warranty, 3 on the batteries, and best of all they are quiet compared to the Paslodes.

    I have been through three Paslode finisher guns, because they are a shyte design and start playing up usually after about 12 months.
    Once they start playing up they seem to get worse quickly, the one I just threw in the skip bin had an intermittent issue with the fan inside the engine getting stuck, because it wouldn't spin the gun wouldn't fire.

    It was luicky I had a portable compressor and 18Ga / DA air finish guns so I could still keep doing what I was working on.
    The price of a new fan / motor was around $300 including a service, so it all adds up, the gun has had a few problems in the past so I decided it was time to get rid of it.

    The Paslode framers are ok, they are a robust design, but the finisher guns are garbage, then you have the constant cleaning of them to keep them running ok otherwise they play up.
    Yes, Paslode make a lot of money on the Gas, and the lubricating oil and the special cleaning fluid, and the batteries, and the service centre visits, it all adds up once you look at the total running cost.

    The battery guns are different, they are heavier, and bulky on one side, but they shoot quick, minimal kickback, and have more power that the Paslode, so It's only a matter of time and they will be the normal gun in use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sol381 View Post
    Nice pickup Metrix. The DA bradder is a good choice. Don't really see the need for 16ga or 18ga nailers. It seems that paslode may get left behind with the no gas battery only guns. Both the hikoki and milwaukee are more powerful but the cost of gas adds up fast. On an average job we can use 4 to 6 gas fuel cells each for framer and bradder. At $20 each it adds up fast.

    JB1. havent you heard the saying. You can never have enough tools.
    Yes, the DA bradder was a no brainer, I have always like them more than the thinner gauge nails, the penetration hole is only slightly bigger on the DA, so filling etc is the same.
    I think your right, Paslode will have to come out with a battery version or they will lose out on the market.

    I have been giving the framer a go over the last few days, and it's very impressive the power it has.
    I just have to get used to the different firing angle, as you get use to the Paslode, the Hikoki needs to be placed at a slightly different angle or you can just shoot out the back of the timber easily.

    And because there is the air thing sticking out the left side of the gun it can get in the way when in a tight spot.

    I guess it's just getting used to a different method.

    I notice both guns have single shot and bump fire mode, I haven't seen this on any guns for a while, my Fasco air framer has it as well.
    The documentation says models sold in New Zealand have had this feature disabled, what are they afraid of over there, can't trust the Tradie to control the gun !!!

    Agree the cost of running the Paslodes can add up, I don't have a problem with the Paslode framers, I only wore one of them out, the other one has been very reliable.
    I will keep it as a backup.
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