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Ceiling mounted kitchen extractors advice please

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  1. #1
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    Default Ceiling mounted kitchen extractors advice please

    Hi. This is just a shout-out for advice or past experiences.

    We are building a house with a large kitchen island. The island will have stove and cooktop.

    My wife is adamant that we choose a rangehood/extraction system that does not isolate her from the goings on at the dining table (right in front).

    So this means no big, downward hanging rangehood. It needs to be non-intrusive, flush to the ceiling or nearly so.

    So I’m looking at my options.

    I know there are flush mounted extractors like this one on the market : https://www.ilve.com.au/rangehood/ce...unt-hood-90cm/.

    My problems with these are:

    Cost. UNless there is one hiding out there I haven’t noticed, cost is north of $3000 for one sized for our area - and even then I get different reports on whether they actually work.

    Appearance. I know most people like the glass and chrome aesthetic, but ours is more stone and concrete. They wouldn’t suit.

    I also thought about simply putting in a diy solution of a couple of powerful inline fans in the kitchen ceiling with semi-rigid ducting, and some type of filter flush to the ceiling. I did this at a previous house and it worked very well - basically because I overkilled everything with two 1200m/hr fans each with 200mm ducting. Back then there were no regulations interfering and we were not much aware of issues of fire, health or noise. I understand there are now regs makin this difficult.

    So my questions are, has anyone fit a ceiling mounted extractor? Did it work? What did you buy and pay? Did anyone go the DIY route?

    Any advice welcome
    Cheers

  2. #2
    Golden Member havabeer's Avatar
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    Cam go that extra and use one of the pop up ones that come out of the bench and induce a cross stream?

    https://www.appliancesonline.com.au/...wndraft-system

    $1600 - $2000+ might be more then you're willing to spend though.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by havabeer View Post
    Cam go that extra and use one of the pop up ones that come out of the bench and induce a cross stream?

    https://www.appliancesonline.com.au/...wndraft-system

    $1600 - $2000+ might be more then you're willing to spend though.
    Agree with the bench mounted ones, the ceiling mounted ones I have seen always have greasy stains on the ceiling as it doesn't pick everything up, and the smell of the food is also irritating.

    Best to suck it down before it gets airborne.
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    Quote Originally Posted by havabeer View Post
    Cam go that extra and use one of the pop up ones that come out of the bench and induce a cross stream?

    https://www.appliancesonline.com.au/...wndraft-system

    $1600 - $2000+ might be more then you're willing to spend though.
    That option is not possible because the ducting needs to travel downwards then through the floor space below the kitchen. We can’t do that because the kitchen is in the upper floor and the lower floor is already finished so no way to route the ducting.

    Thanks anyway.

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    Oops. Reading it more closely, it looks like these are recirculating, not ducted externally as I thought. The ducting simply sucks downward and throws the recirculated air out through the kickboard. This probably explains the poor reviews.

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    One trick is to make sure your hood is wider than your cooktop so you can catch the steam/fumes as they rise. So, 900 cooktop means minimum 1200. Wider needs greater airflow as well
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    Default Amazing

    Reporting my findings in an attempt to stir up a bit more discussion here.

    It seems as though my idea of a building a solution from components rather then buying a rangehood is not as unusual as I thought - in fact It’s rather common.

    Start with this
    https://www.pureventilation.com.au/b...an-metal-roof/
    Yep, the fan motor is actually right up at the top of the pipe - so above the roof.

    Or you could put the fan in the roofspace, oriented vertically to minimise 90degree turns if venting to the roof.
    https://www.pureventilation.com.au/b...ine-fan-150mm/

    Then some fire rated ducting

    Then a filter sized to fit
    https://www.rangehoodfilters.com.au/...ade-to-measure

    Then an inconspicuous vent in the ceiling - like this but preferably less restrictive:
    https://www.pureventilation.com.au/b...adaptor-white/

    Of course I would need two of these to give me a reasonable extraction. Possibly one in the Butlers pantry as well so it’s a lot of roof penetrations and that worries me with our flat roof.

    The other solution of buying an expensive, European ceiling mount extractor system is getting less appealing now I realise I would need to build a bulkhead as well to get the unit below the joists, so extra carpentry and plastering as well - plus we end up with a gratuitous bulkhead in the middle of our minimalist open plan space.

    Cheers

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    Bench mounted not well reviewed, heat rising and all that. Having said that, having just done this exercise, getting SMEs to make Bold Statements about performance, extractor fans, run lengths, pipe sizes, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all .. not that easy. No-one wants to say "pick me, pick me, ahh by the way, we alone."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Compleat Amateu View Post
    Bench mounted not well reviewed, heat rising and all that. Having said that, having just done this exercise, getting SMEs to make Bold Statements about performance, extractor fans, run lengths, pipe sizes, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all .. not that easy. No-one wants to say "pick me, pick me, ahh by the way, we alone."
    So.... if you’ve just done this exercise, what did you end up doing ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    Could you just blow the air out onto the roof without filtering? Otherwise, how are you going to access the filter for cleaning? Climb into the roof-space or get up on a ladder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tundra View Post
    Could you just blow the air out onto the roof without filtering? Otherwise, how are you going to access the filter for cleaning? Climb into the roof-space or get up on a ladder?
    I would prefer to just blow it straight out the ceiling, however I thought a filter was a requirement by code or by council???
    I’m not sure about this and was hoping someone here could confirm.
    If it’s from council then it should be in the DA, then I guess I will be able to find it.
    Its possible council may have a requirement to stop neighbours complaining about getting blasted by cooking smells??

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    I’ve just looked thru the DA, BASIX and bushfire regs and see no mention of rangehood filters.
    Also BCA has no particular requirements for range hoods in class 1 buildings.
    So I guess I don’t need a filter.

    My current thinking is to do something like this
    HB1020 Frameless Extract Grill (Rectangular) - Halliday Baillie
    but larger and more powerful. I’ll get a fabrication place to make up a shallow hood, with a ducting port above feeding into an in-line fan, then straight out the roof vent. Need two of these, side by side. All that will be seen from below will be a shadowline - very minimalist.

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    If you don't have a filter all the grease is going to end up in your ceiling cavity.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    If you don't have a filter all the grease is going to end up in your ceiling cavity.
    No, it’s vented straight outside by a duct. Direct from range hood to rooftop vent.
    Venting into the roof cavity has not been legal for a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Compleat Amateu View Post
    Bench mounted not well reviewed, heat rising and all that. "
    I went along to a demonstration of an in counter exhaust and yeah heat rises but the smoke, steam and smells went down the vent! If we ever get around to our reno will definitely put an in counter or other in benchtop option. We can't vent down either but the vent can go out the side if an external wall is available.

    Couldn't smell the fish or steak cooking right in front of us plus the noise was a lot quieter than an exhaust above your head. Arron, worth investigating if you have access to an external wall where the cooktop will be.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    That option is not possible because the ducting needs to travel downwards then through the floor space below the kitchen. We can’t do that because the kitchen is in the upper floor and the lower floor is already finished so no way to route the ducting.

    Thanks anyway.
    There are options suited for your situation rather than reinventing the wheel and ending up with an inferior result that doesn't perform and cost as much as a commercially available unit.

    Bench mounted units can easily be ducted within the operating space, there are also plenty of nice looking ceiling hung options that don't isolate you from the conversation.


    ducted.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    There are options suited for your situation rather than reinventing the wheel and ending up with an inferior result that doesn't perform and cost as much as a commercially available unit.

    Bench mounted units can easily be ducted within the operating space, there are also plenty of nice looking ceiling hung options that don't isolate you from the conversation.
    Yeah, that worries me too. Reinventing the wheel at great cost and time, only to find its not nearly as good as the original wheel.

    That’s why this forum is good. You can float your ideas and have an experienced person tell you to get your head out of the rabbit hole before you go any further.

    That still leaves me with no solution, however. I’ve looked at all the commercial alternatives, I think, and when you look closely they still fall short of the many constraints that this job imposes. The units you posted arei interesting, but recirculating units with a 500 - 800m3 capacity might work in a small kitchen or unit but our space is very difficult to ventilate effectively. The Etoile had me excited, but seem to be no longer produced.

    I’m not sure what to do right now.

    Thank you for your contribution.

    Cheers
    Arron

  18. #18
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    Which etoile product are you after, winnings seem to have them available
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Which etoile product are you after, winnings seem to have them available
    This one

    https://www.winningappliances.com.au...e60x100apwhglf

    Although 800m3 is pretty low, especially as most manufacturers quote the fan rating without taking into account the constrictions formed by the shape of the cowl and the entry slots- and with these narrow slots reduce it is reduced considerably. The thing I liked about this one is it’s only 230mm high so would fit in our ceiling space, which is only 300mm.

  20. #20
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    I have an undermount schweigen that uses the iso motor, so the motor is outside the roof, best bloody rangehood I have ever had, it's quiet and sucks like

    screenshot_20210804-124634_opera.jpg
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  21. #21
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    Default Ceiling mounted kitchen extractors advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    I have an undermount schweigen that uses the iso motor, so the motor is outside the roof, best bloody rangehood I have ever had, it's quiet and sucks like

    Where is mounted? Ceiling?

    lk

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1 View Post
    Where is mounted? Ceiling?
    My one is fixed concealed under cupboard type, not ceiling type, but same brand, the ceiling one above has 1600cfm suction power.
    The beauty of these scheweigen is the motor is outside the roof, this one is on a 10m ducting, so you hear basically nothing inside when it's running even on the highest speed it's barely audible
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    My one is fixed concealed under cupboard type, not ceiling type, but same brand, the ceiling one above has 1600cfm suction power.
    The beauty of these scheweigen is the motor is outside the roof, this one is on a 10m ducting, so you hear basically nothing inside when it's running even on the highest speed it's barely audible
    I have been looking at that one. It’s not our ideal but realistically it’s probably what we will end up buying.

    With 1600m3 (not cfm) it would probably do our space. We would need to build a bulkhead to lower the ceiling as our joists run perpendicular to the island and are on 450 centres. Overall unit height is low though so bulkhead not too deep. Price is not too bad. Made in the right country. Probably the best of the imports.

    If cost wasn’t a constraint this is what I’d really like:
    https://www.winningappliances.com.au...ood-ccpara3wse


    Do you use yours with induction cooktop? I’ve read that there are issues with condensation when using inductions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    I have been looking at that one. It’s not our ideal but realistically it’s probably what we will end up buying.

    With 1600m3 (not cfm) it would probably do our space. We would need to build a bulkhead to lower the ceiling as our joists run perpendicular to the island and are on 450 centres. Overall unit height is low though so bulkhead not too deep. Price is not too bad. Made in the right country. Probably the best of the imports.

    If cost wasn’t a constraint this is what I’d really like:
    https://www.winningappliances.com.au...ood-ccpara3wse


    Do you use yours with induction cooktop? I’ve read that there are issues with condensation when using inductions?
    I think your overthinking it, I know you like the look of something that's not there, but sometimes the time and effort to find / build this isn't worth it in the end, as you won't even notice it after a week.

    Yes this one has induction cooktop, what do you mean by condensation, in the rangehood ?

    I have noticed if you run it on lowest speed and generating a lot of steam such as boiling pasta, and another pot with a lot of steam coming off, it has dripped water back onto the cooktop it's only done it once.
    Since turning it up to speed 2 or three, it hasn't seemed to do it, with regular cooking ie: not generating crap loads of steam it has never done it on any speed.

    Speed one on these is normally sufficient for most cooking as they are very efficient, usually speed 2 / 3 for anything excessive (still extremely quiet) speed 4 / 5 for I guess if you had all elements with pots giving off steam, have never had to use it on those speeds, even at 4 / 5 it's still quieter than most cheap rangehoods on their lowest setting.

    I think it would be more of an issue with a rangehood that's close to the cooktop, as it sucking in probably 99% of what's coming off the pots so more chance of overloading the filters.

    A ceiling mounted one would have to capture less as it's got to travel a lot further to be sucked away, I think an amount would get dissipate around the island ceiling and not get captured, that's why I'm not a fan of ceiling mounted versions.
    A rangehood closer to the cooktop is always going to capture more of the steam / smells than one placed onto a ceiling.

    It might have something to do with there is no real heat that comes off an induction cooktop, whereas gas has a shyte load of heat going up with the steam so it might "dry" the filters out.
    I have had 5 GAS cooktop kitchens before an induction and never noticed it, so must have something to do with no excessive heat generated by the induction.

    Yes it is made in the right country, 90% of the other stuff is made in the "other" place, and they are all pretty much the same and all very NOISY due to poor design.
    These ones are so quiet, I have had heaps of people ask how to turn it on, when it was already on,

    One of the best ones out there are Whispair, these don't use filters instead a combination of U shaped diffusers, they are super quiet and efficient, but you pay for it, starting around $4000
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    Default Ceiling mounted kitchen extractors advice please

    I've got a 1200mm undermount Schweigen with 1600 cubic m/hr external fan. I used the supplied 5m ducting.

    I'm happy with it but was expecting better performance.

    I do get the condensation issue when boiling water for a long time without a lid. So not often.

    What happens is is the hot steam hits the cold filter baffle filter and develops condensation.

    Doesn't happen with gas because the heat from the gas warms up the metal filter.

    No regrets having induction, but I'm glad I also have a gas wok burner.. can't heat up the sides of a wok with induction.



    Slk

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    This is the statement from the manual for the Schweigen unit you posted. If it isn’t an issue in our environment then I expect it’s a climate difference thing.

    Cooking with Induction Cooktops
    Cooking with an induction or similar cooktop, may produce condensation on the rangehood.
    Unlike basic electric or gas cooking, induction cooktops heat food and liquid instantly, which in turn, produces vapours rapidly. Because of this rapid process, the rangehood filters do not have enough time to warm, which increases the chance of condensation forming.
    There are many variables that may contribute to condensation forming, some of which include but are not limited to:
    • Variance in climate – geographical location
    • Position of your home & kitchen – morning/afternoon sun
    • Installation distance from cooktop to the rangehood
    • Speed of food & liquid heating
    • Filter size – larger canopy preferred
    • Quality of pots or cookware you are using – high quality recommended
    How to reduce the possibility of condensation forming:
    • Ensure the rangehood is installed by a qualified professional, carefully following the installation guide
    • Turn on the rangehood 5-10 minutes prior to cooking, and leave on for 10-15 minutes after cooking; this helps clear remaining vapours from the flue.
    • Start the cooking process at a low-to-medium setting and allow time for the rangehood to warm up.
    • Clean filters regularly.
    • Ensure constant airflow in the cooking zone; this helps optimise the rate of extraction.
    • Follow all induction cooktop manufacturer advice.
    For further advice, tips or information regarding cooking with ind

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