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  1. #51
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    Moondog, would you be able to open the unit and take some detailed photos?

    I've read this thread a few times, but things just aren't adding up. Why would anybody take a switchmode design and "counterfeit" that into a class AB design with a toroidal transformer? It would be more expensive going with the class AB design. Even if they took a common design, who would then use an expensive toroidal transformer and 12x TO247 output transistors? Cmon the counterfeit even has nice cable management? Maybe if it had a cheap EI tranformer and some tiny output transistors it would make more sense.

    I would expect a poorly reverse engineered copy of the original with severely cut down components and quality, cheaper PCB quality etc.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    That one is advertised as New
    That's the same guy.
    I am not responsible for anything that Moondog says!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    How much would you pay for the genuine article?
    This is a discontinued model and I think the street price was under $1,000, although the RRP might have been somewhat higher. By street price, I mean the negotiable price you would expect to pay from a genuine dealer, which in the music industry is usually quite a bit lower than the ticket price. After 18 months of lockdowns and restrictions on public gatherings affecting the music industry across Australia professional audio equipment is flooding secondhand markets at fire-sale prices, so a low price is not necessarily an indication of dodgy deal.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  4. #54
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    It's sad but true. A lot of professional musicians and sound people are having to sell off gear to pay the rent, that's one of the reasons I wasn't suspicious of the low price.
    At this stage I don't want to open up the unit, we are waiting on PayPal to give us an answer to our request for a reversal of the payment and ditto Border Force/ Federal Police.
    I suspect that there is a huge over supply of toroids sitting in warehouses all over the world at the moment due to the switch to switchmode PSUs and the same goes for amplifiers without inbuilt DSP.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  5. #55
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    I think this explains it as they reimburse for counterfeit.

    https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...yer-protection

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonno80 View Post

    ... but things just aren't adding up. Why would anybody take a switchmode design and "counterfeit" that into a class AB design with a toroidal transformer?
    Bulk similar finished amps are very cheap on sites like Alibaba. A manufacturer could adapt for less money than this. Cs Pv Series 3000-10000watt Power Amplifier - Buy Sound Power Amplifier,Power Transistor Series Amplifier Transistor D667,Professional Power Amplifier Product on Alibaba.com

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    I think this explains it as they reimburse for counterfeit.

    https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...yer-protection

    The grey area will be how was it advertised, under Paypal you can claim if the item is "Significantly Not as Described" in this case the following applies "The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic (i.e. counterfeit)".
    https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...x=en_AU#buying

    The way I read it is that they will reimburse if an item was advertised as authentic but what is delivered is not an authentic item.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by droog View Post
    The grey area will be how was it advertised, under Paypal you can claim if the item is "Significantly Not as Described" in this case the following applies "The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic (i.e. counterfeit)".
    https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...x=en_AU#buying

    The way I read it is that they will reimburse if an item was advertised as authentic but what is delivered is not an authentic item.
    The ad advertised it as Yamaha not Yamaha knockoff. Some years ago I bought some Andersen plugs thinking they were the real Andersen plugs but they were knockoff's. I used them for what I wanted but I see now the knockoff's are advertised as "Andersen style" so there is no way you can not know they are not Andersen plugs.

    I see the makita batteries on ebay don't have the Makita logo but they say 6Ah For Makita a suttle word change but would avoid anyone coming back to them as not being genuine.

    The Amplifier is listed as Yamaha and the buyer should expect that is is the genuine article.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    The ad advertised it as Yamaha not Yamaha knockoff. Some years ago I bought some Andersen plugs thinking they were the real Andersen plugs but they were knockoff's. I used them for what I wanted but I see now the knockoff's are advertised as "Andersen style" so there is no way you can not know they are not Andersen plugs.

    I see the makita batteries on ebay don't have the Makita logo but they say 6Ah For Makita a suttle word change but would avoid anyone coming back to them as not being genuine.

    The Amplifier is listed as Yamaha and the buyer should expect that is is the genuine article.
    100% agree, and would be putting that same statement regarding the brand name to Paypal.
    I hope for Moondog that Paypal are straight up for the same agreement in this case.

  10. #60
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    The amp in the link might be a really good amplifier, but not of interest to any band who tours due to the weight. As a Studio amp possibly depending on distortion figures.

    Airfreight of something weighing 20 kilos would add substantially to the individual cost, especially considering VAT is calculated on the total landed cost
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  11. #61
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    Hope Paypal comes good. They usually are.
    Currently awaiting a decision about a chef knife I bought, "Handcrafted in Japan, by master katana makers"
    They sent me tracking information after one month, and guess what ... comes from bloody china.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Hope Paypal comes good. They usually are.
    Currently awaiting a decision about a chef knife I bought, "Handcrafted in Japan, by master katana makers"
    They sent me tracking information after one month, and guess what ... comes from bloody china.
    They probably have a small factory in China which they registered as "Japan, by master katana makers". That'll do it

  13. #63
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    Gee sorry to read this Ted.
    I must say I was surprised to see the original amp has a switch mode PSU. It must take some real good filtering to get rid of all the noise from the choppers. Mind you, it's been awhile since I did cracked open a amp and I can't remember ever opening a 2Kw jobbie.

  14. #64
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    Switch mode PSUs have come a long way, a bit like chip amps in that regard.
    Still waiting on a response from PayPal
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  15. #65
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    They take their time as long as you get an automatic response to your complaint.

    Have you heard anything from Yamaha?

  16. #66
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    Also read carefully, ensure that PayPal isn't actually waiting for you to do some action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    Also read carefully, ensure that PayPal isn't actually waiting for you to do some action.
    OK so PayPal replied and decided we must send the item back to get a refund. They also have a free return available so I won't have to pay another $31. Paypal basically said their returns department reviewed my information and that's their final decision regardless of the counterfeit nature of the item. It felt as though they were inferring I wanted to get a refund AND keep the item. I would have gladly given it to a government agency for destruction.

    That said, I am not happy that a counterfeit item has to go back to a seller who will simply turn it around and sell it again. Ted didn't have a return call from Yamaha and when I tried to ring them I got misdirected to the wrong department who could not assist so I also am waiting on a call.

    Pain in the posterior.
    I am not responsible for anything that Moondog says!

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecile View Post
    OK so PayPal replied and decided we must send the item back to get a refund. They also have a free return available so I won't have to pay another $31. Paypal basically said their returns department reviewed my information and that's their final decision regardless of the counterfeit nature of the item. It felt as though they were inferring I wanted to get a refund AND keep the item. I would have gladly given it to a government agency for destruction.

    That said, I am not happy that a counterfeit item has to go back to a seller who will simply turn it around and sell it again. Ted didn't have a return call from Yamaha and when I tried to ring them I got misdirected to the wrong department who could not assist so I also am waiting on a call.

    Pain in the posterior.

    Did you also report the seller for promoting counterfeit goods?

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecile View Post
    OK so PayPal replied and decided we must send the item back to get a refund.
    All well and good but how do you get a refund if he won't answer posts?

    Is the Paypal free return guarantee by Paypal he has got it and refunded you the money which Paypal is hanging on to?

    And do you know his return address as Moondog said he changed his name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    All well and good but how do you get a refund if he won't answer posts?

    Is the Paypal free return guarantee by Paypal he has got it and refunded you the money which Paypal is hanging on to?

    And do you know his return address as Moondog said he changed his name?
    Paypal contacted him today after I escalated it to an actual claim and they replied right away. They gave us the return address, which is the same one Sendle picked up from. Seller will be required to reimburse for the shipping AFTER I send it back and send proof of return.

    We are ethically and morally not happy returning a counterfeit item that he will on-sell yet again. Unfortunately, many of the government agencies aren't chasing these people. We'll report him wherever we can, and to Facebook but not until after we get our refund. We told Yamaha so they can do what they need to do.
    I am not responsible for anything that Moondog says!

  21. #71
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    So if we return we'll be once again looking for an stereo amp with about 800 watts available and preferably with on-board DSP
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecile View Post
    We are ethically and morally not happy returning a counterfeit item that he will on-sell yet again.
    Your reservations about the vendor and the product noted, ethically and morally you should not expect entitlement to a refund if you do not return the item to the vendor. And you most certainly should not consider keeping the item if you receive a refund via PayPal prior to a return - it is the relevant authority's responsibility to prosecute the law, not anyone else's.
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  23. #73
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    Why do you seem to be taking sides with the criminal John?
    To me it seems more like natural justice to get our money back and get to keep the goods.
    As for the "Relevant Authorities" they seem to think it's not worth their time and effort to chase little thieves.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecile View Post
    We are ethically and morally not happy returning a counterfeit item that he will on-sell yet again. Unfortunately, many of the government agencies aren't chasing these people.
    Your ethics are discharged when you reported it to the likes of Yamaha and they have seen fit not to follow it up so be it.

    Return it to the sender and put it behind you.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    So if we return we'll be once again looking for an stereo amp with about 800 watts available and preferably with on-board DSP
    I don't know how you can protect yourself buying on line from a private seller and not get a counterfeit. This one was reasonably easy to spot the next one might not.

    Maybe do what marc does and visit cash converters as it John2b is correct there should be a lot of that gear there from starving artists.
    The likes of Cash Converters would not get caught with dodgy gear and if they do they wouldn't be game to on sell it.

  26. #76
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    Love to do that. We are in Lockdown and can't travel to where all the bargains seem to be, Cash Converters in and around Melbourne City where all the starving musos live.
    Supply difficulties with a lot of new good gear at the moment it seems.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  27. #77
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    We have the Green shed (recycling) here and you sometimes see some good gear, especially speakers.

  28. #78
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    Probably because it isn't cost effective to repair. I just got a quick estimate for refoam the surrounds on a pair of cheap 15" woofers, mates rates was $90- a speaker, retail rate through Total Recoil was $210- each.
    I can buy new drivers for around $150- each, and probably better spec that the old ones. Just the foam surrounds are now $50- a pair.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    As for the "Relevant Authorities" they seem to think it's not worth their time and effort to chase little thieves.
    ...and surprisingly quite a few of them. Checked out your FB link to the amp and happened to spot a FB advertisement located in Melbourne selling end of season $600 to $1000 TREK bikes for a clearance rate of $60. The buyer had to go to an internet site to purchase. Was really professional looking...but obviously a scam.

    Must be many that part with their money and get burned.....and all too small for the authorities to give a damn. Until now, hadn't given it a thought there would be fake HiFi gear.
    Was a Chinese FB account name the other day, reported and now its many different accounts.
    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...a-5e7783fe1071

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart1080 View Post
    ...and surprisingly quite a few of them. Checked out your FB link to the amp and happened to spot a FB advertisement located in Melbourne selling end of season $600 to $1000 TREK bikes for a clearance rate of $60. The buyer had to go to an internet site to purchase. Was really professional looking...but obviously a scam.
    Id bet the bikes illustrated are genuine but I notice the payment is by CC so it will be much harder to get your money back. They will probably take hundreds of orders then disappear with the case and start selling outboard motors or some such other deals that are dirt cheap.

  31. #81
    Deactivated User Marc's Avatar
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    For what it is worth, in my case with the fake Japanese chef knife, after several email stating it was on it's way and reading other people's experience, I changed my claim with PayPal from item not received to counterfeit product, based on their ads stating hand made in Japan, and the copy of the tracking timeline with a string of cities in China on the way here ... allegedly. I also told PayPal that I did not want to pay for return if it ever got here.
    Refunded only a few days later.

  32. #82
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    So we sent it back. PayPal will release the funds when the guy gets it. I can only hope he doesn't do the dirty and claim he never got it, which is not unheard of. Hopefully Sendle takes a photo of the delivered box. I paid additional for insurance this time, so if it goes missing I'm covered either way.
    I am not responsible for anything that Moondog says!

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecile View Post
    So we sent it back.


    I am not responsible for anything that Moondog says!
    That's not what Ted said...
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  34. #84
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    As soon as we get our refund I'm reporting him to the Facebook market place for selling counterfeit products. Cecile may have other options. I think I dislike thieves more than I dislike axe murderers.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  35. #85
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    Why only axe murderers?

  36. #86
    The Master's Apprentice Bedford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    Cecile may have other options.
    What would those be?
    Posted by John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

  37. #87
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    Nothing secret, the ATO has a "Dob-In" web site, I'm willing to wager he is not reporting any of this income.
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  38. #88
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    Moon ... if you get your money back, consider yourself even.
    Revenge does not pay, and many times backfires ...

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecile View Post
    So we sent it back. PayPal will release the funds when the guy gets it.
    I don't think you had much choice if you wanted a genuine article.

    Facebook must be a bit different to Ebay as when I got my money back Paypal investigated it and reversed the transaction then it was up to the seller what he wanted to do.

  40. #90
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    Revenge is sweet and best served cold
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Moon ... if you get your money back, consider yourself even.
    Revenge does not pay, and many times backfires ...

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    Well Cardinal Pell got away with it didn't he
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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  43. #93
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    I had payment for the "Japanese" chef knife refunded yet the knife turned up 2 days after.
    So I called PayPal to say that I did not want to keep the knife and that a postage paid satchel from the seller would allow me to return it at no cost to me.
    What followed was strange.
    She first told me the refund had been reversed, so I didn't have a refund despite what my account shows.
    She then said that PayPal is willing to pay half the cost and that I could keep the knife.

    I was taken by surprise by this, and told her that this was a counterfeit product and that paypal wasn't at fault. Besides the knife is a crude thick blade made of cheap steel that belongs in a backpack to hack at tree branches and not in a kitchen.
    She decided to double check the status of the refund, and returned saying they reversed the reversed payment and that I could keep the knife. (?)

    Sometimes corporate actions and motivations are hard to separate from their staff actions and motivations. Not complaining. After a bit of sharpening, this will end in the shed, or may be the boat. May be good to cut off rope that tangles in the propeller.

    If you see this, too good to be true ... it is. Stay clear. I paid $80. I see they are selling for $40. It's Ok if you pay $20

    https://huusk.com/huusk/product-2?l=...RoC9RIQAvD_BwE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bros View Post
    I don't think you had much choice if you wanted a genuine article.

    Facebook must be a bit different to Ebay as when I got my money back Paypal investigated it and reversed the transaction then it was up to the seller what he wanted to do.

    The person I spoke with at PayPal would not budge. It was almost as though she inferred we wanted a refund AND to keep the item. The information I discovered about the seller shows he's not that smart either. He has links to his personal and work pages from the ad. His address pic on Google maps shows a huge sign on his front fence announcing a business he operates, plus he's a property developer from what I can tell - big red flag. Easy enough to find out he not only has an ABN but is registered for GST. Knowing what I know about "the system" it's not hard to figure out he's most likely not reporting income from these sales, plus he didn't charge us GST when he's legally obliged to do it.

    Anyway we've done what we can to report him.
    I am not responsible for anything that Moondog says!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    I think I dislike thieves more than I dislike axe murderers.
    I can't imagine what you think of axe murderers who steal their murder weapons...
    Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it necessary, it is true, does it improve on the silence? - Baba

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2b View Post
    I can't imagine what you think of axe murderers who steal their murder weapons...
    Especially if the murder weapon was also counterfeit.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    Especially if the murder weapon was also counterfeit.
    And the weapon counterfeiter stole the one he copied off!

  48. #98
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    Replacement new toy arrives tomorrow or Wednesday. No axe murderers were harmed during the purchase of this second hand Peavey power amp.
    Not as powerful as I think we need but more than we already have.
    Peavey PVi 2000 315 watts per channel in stereo and a bit more into a low impedance speaker load
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    Replacement new toy arrives tomorrow or Wednesday.
    Same seller?

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    No, this one is coming from Melbourne but also looking at a processor in Q'ld
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

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