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Bolt-on Post Support v Full Stirrup.

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  1. #1
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Question Bolt-on Post Support v Full Stirrup.

    Hi guys,

    What are the correct situations to use either methods. I'm talking in a strength and structure sense.

    bolt-2-.gif full-stirrup.gif

    My questions are and have to do with the following thread - http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=66693

    p1000264-custom-.jpg

    1. If I'm attaching a verandah to a house fascia and that house's fascia has been reinforced to the house's roof rafters can I support the opposite side's posts on bolt-on supports or should I do the old dig / stirrup / fill in method?
    I'm figuring you'll say the dig / stirrup / fill in method but wanted clarification. Who wants to dig if they don't have to especially when cutting concrete is involved.

    2. What is the real intended use of the bolt-on post support?
    Can it support verandah posts. I ask because I've been told they can flex at the base. Of course it's handier to bolt-on rather than cut concrete and dig.

    Cheers guys,
    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

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    Are you a Builder/Home Renovator

  3. #3
    Senior Member DvdHntr's Avatar
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    I would direct this enquiry to the engineers at Pryda as to the suitable use of their stirrups. One would think that the raised stirrup is for ease of installation and possible termite protection but would not be as strong as the other type.

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    1K Club Member journeyman Mick's Avatar
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    I've never used bolt on post supports and would be very wary of using them in a structural situation unless they'd been specified. If you don't know the thickness/Mpa/amount & type of reinforcing of the slab then you might just as well be gluing them down with liquid nails. I don't even like the stirrups (which are meant to be cast in BTW) as they flex a bit and need a fair bit of bracing during constructon. I prefer a fish plate bolted on either side of the post or a large cast in bracket.

    Mick
    "If you need a machine today and don't buy it,

    tomorrow you will have paid for it and not have it."

    - Henry Ford 1938

  5. #5
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod1949 View Post
    Are you a Builder/Home Renovator
    Why do you ask?

    DvdHntr,
    I'll contact Pryda or McIntyre and report back what they said.

    Mick,
    Please explain - "prefer a fish plate bolted on either side of the post or a large cast in bracket".

    Doc.
    Last edited by Dr - 307; 25th Feb 2008 at 03:25 PM. Reason: add replies.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Waldo's Avatar
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    I've never been a fan of stirrups, I'd rather dig a 600mm hole and concrete the posts in, but that's me.
    I make things, they just take a long time.

  7. #7
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Waldo,
    Why have you - never been a fan of stirrups, I'd rather dig a 600mm hole and concrete the posts in,

    OK, I asked the experts and they said -

    Mcintyre - Da uhh, I'll get some info and uhh I'll fax it to you.
    I'll read it and let you know.
    Pryda - they were more helpful and he basically said after I summarised it for him that -

    Stirrups - are for lined / cladded roof structures where wind lift is an issue.
    Bolt-on supports - decks, non cladded / non lined roof structures ie no wind lift.

    Doc.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr - 307 View Post
    Why do you ask?

    Doc.
    I've noticed and looking back on your post history you're on this site asking how to do things, you're doing work for "Clients" thus this indicates to me that you are recieving some sort of gratitude for the work you do for the client. Thus the line of work you are doing and the how to's you are asking on this site indicate to me that you may not be qualified and thus taking advantage of the good natured and qualified people on this site.

    If I have formed the wrong impression then I sincerely appoligise.

  9. #9
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Dude,

    I got involved in this caper by being cluey and working things out. I started doing work on my own place, then my father in laws, my dads, my brothers, and so on and so on.
    I ask questions that I believe are valid and of some value to other forumites. If I am deadset certain of my own knowledge then I offer my own advice to others like I have done on many occasions.
    Where is the issue in me moonlighting building decks or verandahs. I have seeked and gotten council approval (when required or asked for) and have never been rejected. I draw my own plans (thanks to three years doing Industrial Design at RMIT) and seek to do things right that's why I ask alot of questions.
    The deck that I just finished was my first paid job and in all honestly I hope I get a heap more. I feel and have been told numerous times that my work is bloody good and clean unlike my BIL's mates verandah which leaks at every polycarb overlap that was built by his 'chippy' mate. If I can slowly break into it on a full time basis I will, if not, I'm happy to moonlight. Who couldn't use the extra money.

    I don't need to declare any of this but just like all my posts (where I thanked everyone for their help) I'm open and friendly and glad to help anyone I can that's why I'm on the forum all the time.

    Now Rod, I've told you before, don't be sore that you lost your captain to the home of football because - "Such is life!!!"

    No offence taken on my behalf. The problem with a forum is that for one, a forumite's personality is not felt and two, reading is a lot different to hearing so sometimes the message is conveyed in a stronger manner.

    Cheers,
    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr - 307 View Post
    Dude,

    I got involved in this caper by being cluey and working things out. I started doing work on my own place, then my father in laws, my dads, my brothers, and so on and so on.
    I ask questions that I believe are valid and of some value to other forumites. If I am deadset certain of my own knowledge then I offer my own advice to others like I have done on many occasions.
    Where is the issue in me moonlighting building decks or verandahs. I have seeked and gotten council approval (when required or asked for) and have never been rejected. I draw my own plans (thanks to three years doing Industrial Design at RMIT) and seek to do things right that's why I ask alot of questions.
    The deck that I just finished was my first paid job and in all honestly I hope I get a heap more. I feel and have been told numerous times that my work is bloody good and clean unlike my BIL's mates verandah which leaks at every polycarb overlap that was built by his 'chippy' mate. If I can slowly break into it on a full time basis I will, if not, I'm happy to moonlight. Who couldn't use the extra money.

    I don't need to declare any of this but just like all my posts (where I thanked everyone for their help) I'm open and friendly and glad to help anyone I can that's why I'm on the forum all the time.

    Now Rod, I've told you before, don't be sore that you lost your captain to the home of football because - "Such is life!!!"

    No offence taken on my behalf. The problem with a forum is that for one, a forumite's personality is not felt and two, reading is a lot different to hearing so sometimes the message is conveyed in a stronger manner.

    Cheers,
    Dr - 307.
    Yep, fair enough

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    a job were doing at the moment is pretty much exactly the same, villaboard lined gable end pergola... engineer specified:

    -heavy duty pryda psq600 high wind gal post anchor
    -cast min 350mm into 25 mpa 300 dia. concrete pier
    -115 x 115 f7 kd h3 post through bolted to post anchor with 2 x m10 gal bolts

    in sydney we need to get an engineer to design this stuff and a certifier to check on completion, before we can claim final payment.. i would imagine same in melbourne?

  12. #12
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Anyone else have a preference or theory on posts in ground v stirrups v bolt on supports?

    Doc.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sports fan View Post
    a job were doing at the moment is pretty much exactly the same, villaboard lined gable end pergola... engineer specified:

    -heavy duty pryda psq600 high wind gal post anchor
    -cast min 350mm into 25 mpa 300 dia. concrete pier
    -115 x 115 f7 kd h3 post through bolted to post anchor with 2 x m10 gal bolts

    in sydney we need to get an engineer to design this stuff and a certifier to check on completion, before we can claim final payment.. i would imagine same in melbourne?
    I've never used the high wind anchor but I've read on the forum that a lot of people prefer them to the single 'leg' type. I always dig 600 deep by about 400 wide. Council approved my rear verandah with 350 diam holes.
    As far as the certifier goes I have a guy come in and check depth of holes and all that and then final inspection when the job is done.

    Doc.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

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    Senior Member Waldo's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dr - 307;689302]Waldo,
    Why have you - never been a fan of stirrups, I'd rather dig a 600mm hole and concrete the posts in,

    For my 2, a 100x100 or 90x90 post has more of a substantial anchor in a 300x600mm hole than a 3/4" or so diameter that a stirrup gives. But horses for courses.
    I make things, they just take a long time.

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    [quote=Waldo;689388]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr - 307 View Post
    Waldo,
    Why have you - never been a fan of stirrups, I'd rather dig a 600mm hole and concrete the posts in,

    For my 2, a 100x100 or 90x90 post has more of a substantial anchor in a 300x600mm hole than a 3/4" or so diameter that a stirrup gives. But horses for courses.

    What about wood rot? has that ever been an issue for you direct sinking posts in concrete?

    Just a question?

    thanks
    brett

  16. #16
    Senior Member Waldo's Avatar
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    G'day 0-Total,

    Woodrot?

    For F7, which is now F5 t/pine I haven't had woodrot, nor on any hardwoods. The only problems I've seen with woodrot on h/wood is where the concrete hasn't been sloped at an angle away from the posts so water doesn't build up around the posts.

    Apologies for dragging this away from Dr-307's original question.
    I make things, they just take a long time.

  17. #17
    1K Club Member journeyman Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr - 307 View Post
    ...........Mick,
    Please explain - "prefer a fish plate bolted on either side of the post or a large cast in bracket"..........
    Doc,
    see here and here for more info on fish plates. Cast in brackets are like the bolt on bracket you posted but heavier and long enought that they can be cast into the concrete and still support the post off the slab/footing.

    Waldo,
    seen plenty of hardwood timber posts rotted where they've been placed in concrete even when the concrete has been shaped to shed water away from the post. It's not considered to be a good industry practice. You'll get a longer service life from posts that are directly embedded in dirt than in concrete.

    Mick
    "If you need a machine today and don't buy it,

    tomorrow you will have paid for it and not have it."

    - Henry Ford 1938

  18. #18
    Senior Member Waldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman Mick View Post
    Doc,
    see here and here for more info on fish plates. Cast in brackets are like the bolt on bracket you posted but heavier and long enought that they can be cast into the concrete and still support the post off the slab/footing.

    Waldo,
    seen plenty of hardwood timber posts rotted where they've been placed in concrete even when the concrete has been shaped to shed water away from the post. It's not considered to be a good industry practice. You'll get a longer service life from posts that are directly embedded in dirt than in concrete.

    Mick
    Thanks Mick,

    I'm always up for learning and won't shy away from advice.
    I make things, they just take a long time.

  19. #19
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    journeyman Mick,
    Regarding fish paltes -
    You set the split ends into concrete and bolt your post to that. And that works better than any of the stirrups / supports available? If you remember and wouldn't mind please post some pics of 'fishplate work' in progress.

    Forumites,
    Regarding timber rot how long can you expect F7 posts to last in ground?

    Thanks,
    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!

  20. #20
    1K Club Member journeyman Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr - 307 View Post
    journeyman Mick,
    Regarding fish paltes -
    You set the split ends into concrete and bolt your post to that. And that works better than any of the stirrups / supports available? If you remember and wouldn't mind please post some pics of 'fishplate work' in progress.......
    Dr,
    don't kow about working "better" but they require less bracing (as per one of the other threads), can be fitted to any size post, are an off the shelf item (around here, anyway) and IMO are stronger than stirrups.

    F7 in ground? How long is a piece of string? There's too many variables. Best bet is to place stuff off the ground to prevent termite access and attack plus avoid decay.

    Re: photos of work in progress with fish plates. Don't hold your breath, I don't do any building work anymore, only cabinets and shopfitting. I will be building a deck and extending my shed so there will be some used then but I still need to mill the logs for my deck timber etc etc etc.

    Mick
    "If you need a machine today and don't buy it,

    tomorrow you will have paid for it and not have it."

    - Henry Ford 1938

  21. #21
    Color blind! Dr - 307's Avatar
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    Appreciate the information.
    I also prefer timber out of the ground.

    Cheers,
    Dr - 307.
    All decks should be painted - black white black white black white. After all, it would match everything!


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