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Bathroom waterproofing, bedding, tiling...everything!!!

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  1. #1
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    Default Bathroom waterproofing, bedding, tiling...everything!!!

    Hi Everyone,

    I'm attacking the bathroom now.

    bathroom1-1-.jpgbathroom1-2-.jpg

    The new shower will extend from the left to right wall, and out 800mm from the end wall. The shower head will be on the left wall, 400mm from end wall. The shower waste is the 100mm pipe on the right side. The untiled area is where the bath was, and sits 30-40mm below the tiled area.

    I have to bring the untiled area up to the level of the tiled area. Do I lay builders plastic and put a mortar bed on top, or do I waterproof and put a bed on top, or do I just put a bed down, then waterproof it all together.

    Also, any advice on what I need do to the exposed brick area on the wall, and with all the plumbing at the base of the wall.

    Thanks for taking the time to look, and any advice is greatly appreciated

  2. #2
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    You will have to take all the wall tiles down, all the render down to the brick. Same with the floor, lift all the floor tiles and chip off all the loose bedding.
    Then you call the plumber and fit all the pipes. Then the electrician for the new location of powerpoints and light switch. Then comes the bedding and the rendering, and once dry you get the waterproofing and the tiling. Assuming that water leak comes from the bathroom pipes, you should be ok. If it comes from somewhere else you will have to investigate before you cover everything up.
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

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    Thanks Marc.

    What is the bedding mix? What type sand should I use in it? Should I use chicken mesh and/or builders plastic under it?
    Could I fix blueboard to the exposed bricks on the wall, instead of render?

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    What is that floor and is it damp. How old is the construction? I would be concerned if there is no vapour barrier there already.

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    Hi phild01,

    It is very old construction. There is no vapour barrier. The floor is concrete. The damp floor is from the existing plumbing after the plumber did his work.

  6. #6
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Mm ... are you going to do it all by yourself?
    And are you going to rely on our advise to get it right?
    Much more info needed then, starting with what Phil says. Is that a concrete slab, is it on the ground, on piers. The walls look ancient, are they stable? Lots of big holes!

    My advise, call in someone to make an assessment of what needs to be done. Anyone can tile or change plumbing or electrical, but when it comes to old houses with their own idiosyncrasy, you want to get it right the first time.
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

  7. #7
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Sorry, missed your last post ... what do you mean water from existing plumbing? Is that new plumbing? Surely not
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

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    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    My first concern is any hydrostatic moisture coming through what is there.

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    Hi Marc,

    This forum is my first port-of-call for advice to help in assessing what needs to be done, which helps me decide whether I can do it, get more advice or get someone in to do it.

    The walls are ancient, but stable....yeah...lotsa big holes in the wall. The slab is on ground. There is no vapour barrier.

  10. #10
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Ok, so plumbing is old right?
    Also ... are you going to do a full bathroom reno or just patch it up?
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

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    Hi Marc,
    The plumber extended the piping from the existing plumbing for the shower head around to the left wall, hence the water when he tested his connection.

    Hi phild01...sorry...but what is hydrostatic moisture?

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    Marc,

    Plumbing is old, but the plumber says it's ok. I just want to patch up, but I want to stop any possible water leaks. There used to be a bath, but at 1200mm, was way too small. I figured to tile the whole lot and just have a shower.

  13. #13
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noggon View Post
    Hi Marc,
    The plumber extended the piping from the existing plumbing for the shower head around to the left wall, hence the water when he tested his connection.

    Hi phild01...sorry...but what is hydrostatic moisture?
    Ground moisture entering under pressure, a thing that must be resolved. If the slab area seems dry, place some plastic sheet over it and leave for several days. When you come back and lift the plastic sheet, it should be completely dry. Any moisture coming through will affect the waterproofing to be applied later on. In other words the concrete that is there should be sandwiched between waterproofing layers to stop water coming in and stop it going out.

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    phild01,

    I think it would be fairly safe to assume there is no waterproofing under the slab...from what info I could get, nothing has been done to this old place in 50+ years. The bath was imprisoned in a brick + render + tile frame, and when I removed it, the floor area was completely dry.

    Do you think fixing blueboard to the walls would be a worthwhile option?

  15. #15
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Well ... I may say what you don't want to hear/read ... It is OK to patch up a bathroom but ... eventually you will probably want to have a new bathroom, (my assumption).
    If you are going to do the work, the difference between doing a patch up and doing the lot may not be that much. You have already ripped off everything so why not keep on going and rip off walls and floor?
    Of course it is possible to keep the existing tiles and add a bit to it, but the end result will always be like using putty on a rusty car body.
    Also, and I qualify this comment with "I am not a plumber" ... When you renovate a bathroom you change everything for a good reason. Old plumbing my be OK for a long time if undisturbed. Once you start chipping and moving and unscrewing and start adding things, guaranteed you get a leak somewhere in the old section and you must start digging holes again.
    It all comes down to money of course and time.
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

  16. #16
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noggon View Post
    phild01,

    I think it would be fairly safe to assume there is no waterproofing under the slab...from what info I could get, nothing has been done to this old place in 50+ years. The bath was imprisoned in a brick + render + tile frame, and when I removed it, the floor area was completely dry.

    Do you think fixing blueboard to the walls would be a worthwhile option?
    Do the plastic sheet test as what looks dry may still be passing moisture, you shouldn't be dismissing this procedure.

    If the walls can be made flush for solid adhesion I would suggest villaboard, but again you need to know there is no moisture/damp issues. You would not want the walls falling in after you make it all look nice.

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    Yeah phild01, you're possibly right about the passing moisture. As it's a built-on both-sides terrace, I know for a fact it is a similarly old unrenovated place next door, and their bathroom is mirrored to mine. If they have leaks behind the tiles, would it be safe to assume it would pass through the bricks into my side? If that's the case, I don't know what I can do about that. Does the plastic sheet test involve laying it on the exposed concrete floor to prevent water dripping onto the slab?
    I thought to slap some render on the exposed brick wall then villa over the whole walls. Maybe I could fix it to the rendered walls with concrete nails and adhesive?

    Marc, you've hit the nail on the head...'It all comes down to money of course and time.' The only part of the old plumbing that has been disturbed is the extension on the shower pipe. Everything else is untouched.

  18. #18
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    If you have a common wall that has a chance to be a source of moisture, strip it to the brick and apply a moisture barrier. There are many different one on the market. A cheap one is Cemcoate Dampproofing. Like I said before, as you start poking around you start braking things that need fixing.
    As far as adding sheeting to a brick wall ... I wouldn't consider it. If it is to stop moisture affecting the tiles, it is the wrong approach. If it is to get a flat surface, you are better off rendering properly.
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

  19. #19
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    No, the plastic sheet is not to stop water dripping onto the slab. You leave it flat over the slab for several days and when you lift it up, the sheet should be dry. If the slab is allowing moisture to pass then the sheet shows this as condensation under the plastic.

    The common wall should be double skinned with an air gap, but I can't comment on moisture from the neighbour's side.

    You can get adhesive for the villaboard to brick but you have to do it well enough to support the weight of the tiles. JH recommend battens, not adhesive, for tiled situations, when going over masonry.
    http://www.jameshardie.com.au/upload...20OCT%2014.pdf
    http://www.johnsbuildingsupplies.com...ard-manual.pdf

    This thread may help:
    http://www.renovateforum.com/f205/fi...athroom-51339/

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    I read the Cemcote product info (http://www.constructionchemicals.com...ct/cemcote.pdf) and it says it can be applied to masonry and brick? If I can apply it onto render means less poking around near plumbing.

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    phild01, what does 'the common wall should be double skinned with an air gap' mean?

  22. #22
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noggon View Post
    phild01, what does 'the common wall should be double skinned with an air gap' mean?
    Like the second last image:


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    phild01, it is def. 2 or 3. There is no cavity.

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    and I found the cause of the dampness as you see in the pic...the plumber busted the red washer when screwing the tap back in.

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    Do you have any advice and suitability on these various waterproofing products?
    http://wholeofhouse.bunnings.com.au/..._-_REVISED.pdf

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    Hi,

    I need advice on the bed. What is the composition of the mortar bed. Should I put some chicken wire in it? It will be about 30-50mm thick, to bring it up to the level of the floor tiles.

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  28. #28
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    Bed is just sand and cement 3:1 rather dry mix. By dry I mean not like brickies mortar but dryer to allow you to spread it and pack it. No need for reinforcement. The problem you will be facing if you only do a patch up is that you will not be able to do a proper waterproofing of the floor.
    Make sure you chip off all the old flooring bed, clean all the dust and give the concrete a coat of Bondcrete, and also mix some in the bed mix.
    If you could scrape off all the render and tiles off the wall and give it a thick coat of dampproof mix under the new render that would be something to consider.
    You can then waterproof the render and tile over it.
    Rendering seems to paralyse people completely but it is possible to do a good job even the first time if you follow basic steps.
    If you really want to do it, I can post some basic instructions.
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

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    Thanks again, Marc...good advice as usual. Unfortunately, money and time constraints dictate. It's our only bathroom and I can't keep it out of action for as long as it will take me to learn to render the walls. The missus is unhappy as is. I old her it would only be for a couple of days. One good thing about this old place...I think it must have been owned by a renderer or concreter as the render on various walls throughout the place is stuck like glue...and next to no druminess. Same with the bathroom...so I'll leave it after I've stripped the tiles, and waterproof over it, up to the ceiling. I wish I had the time and money cause I'd like to have a look at your basic instructions, then have a go at rendering.

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    Thanks joynz for the link.

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    I now need advice and opinions on waterproof, if anyone can help.

    Thanks.

  32. #32
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    ..I think it must have been owned by a renderer or concreter
    Probably european builder. In a country with primarily wooden houses, render is an eccentricity. In countries where 99% houses are full brick or stone, any brickie can render.
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

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    I'd say your right, Marc...definite Mediterranean influence

    Any thoughts on a good waterproof?

  34. #34
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    You are asking the wrong person, but a quick search in the waterproofing forum will give you an answer. When I had to do it I bought some green goo from Bunnings, but by all means check the waterproofing section.
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

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    For what its worth Nog,
    You have received a lot of good advice here. But it is online and not face to face. You have embarked on one of the hardest reno projects, as in an old, adjoined wall wet area.
    Find an old dog builder or carpenter who is still working and pay the guy to come to your place and give you the low down. I say builder or carpenter because these guys see these kind of jobs form beginning to end.
    In 2 hrs you will have a good map of what you need to do. Step by step.
    Have your pen and paper ready and pay the guy. You will save yourself grief, not to mention the misses,
    all the best

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mungabarrie View Post
    For what its worth Nog,
    You have received a lot of good advice here. But it is online and not face to face. You have embarked on one of the hardest reno projects, as in an old, adjoined wall wet area.
    Find an old dog builder or carpenter who is still working and pay the guy to come to your place and give you the low down. I say builder or carpenter because these guys see these kind of jobs form beginning to end.
    In 2 hrs you will have a good map of what you need to do. Step by step.
    Have your pen and paper ready and pay the guy. You will save yourself grief, not to mention the misses,
    all the best
    That's some of the best advice I have ever heard on here
    Mieux vaut prévenir que guérir

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    Thanks Metrix.
    Now I've just gotta get someone to pay me those easy dollars, lmao!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mungabarrie View Post
    Thanks Metrix.
    Now I've just gotta get someone to pay me those easy dollars, lmao!
    Keep looking, maybe at the end of that rainbow you will find it
    Mieux vaut prévenir que guérir

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    sorry for the delayed response, but I've been immersed in this project.
    You're deadright, mungabarrie when you say 'You have embarked on one of the hardest reno projects, as in an old, adjoined wall wet area.' But I am a determined b*****d, and I will get it right! I have been trying to find an 'old dog builder or carpenter' but with so much work around and this being a small job (well, for them anyway, not me) it's been hard to get one. So I have relied on talking to tilers who have come to quote the job, had lots of advice, and have learned a helluva lot. Confident now on what needs to be done and how I want it done.
    I just want to offer a big thank you to all you guys and the invaluable pearls you've cast before this swine. But don't stop there...keep 'em coming. This has been a huge project for me, all consuming, but I am enjoying the challenge, and I'm not finished yet!. Huge masochistic personality, no doubt!

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    I posted this elsewhere, but itwon't hurt to post here....
    The walls are a bit uneven in some places (very old building). Should bagged cement based glues be used to plum them up for tiling ie thicker application? I was told if you tile uneven walls with thicker glue the tiles would become drummy.

  41. #41
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    You have to render the walls plum and flat before you tile. The render does not need to be a nice finish, in fact it is better that it has a rough surface but you must get it plum and flat if you want your tiles to be in one straight line. The tiler can correct a few imperfections but with limitations. Surely the tilers that came to quote told you that.
    I have never used render in a bag. Just 4:1:1 render's sand, cement and lime on a wet (not dripping wet) brick surface.
    When you have finished the render you "scratch" it with a piece of timber with a row of protruding nails like a comb and slightly scratch the surface when it is half set leaving it rough for the glue to take hold. With modern glues this may not be necessary but I like doing it nonetheless. I have seen it done hundreds of times and reminds me of old days
    https://www.amazon.com.au/Global-Warming-Climate-Change-Hoax-ebook/dp/B00JPU8332

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    thanks Marc
    yeah, it was a mix of advice...some said render it, others said it wasn't outa whack too bad and it would be ok. Which way do you go? Some said tiles would be ok and wouldn't go drummy. After listening to all the advice, just go with your gut.
    I appreciate you sharing your render recipe and I'm sure that will come in handy.

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