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Help. WHAT DO I DO.

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  1. #51
    Member Ian Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturdee View Post
    In that case get an architect or draftsman to draw up plans

    Peter.
    Sturdee,
    If we are talking about a house extension maybe, but this is a cupboard for goodness sake. Can't we trust the expertise of our tradesmen to get a small thing like that right?

    Ian

  2. #52
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Smith View Post
    Mick,
    Absolutely, the client must communicate their requirement, but often it's a case of not knowing enough to know you don't know - if you follow me.

    If the client was knowledgeable in the field, then it's more likely, but in Macca's case I don't think she was in a position to understand the implications of her requirements, and the cabinet maker should have been taken the time to explore alternatives, rather than just doing what he had obviously made up his mind to do.

    It may have cost more and taken more time to do it the way Macca wanted or it may have been impractical, but she wasn't given the option to decide

    It may be obvious to anyone with some experience that provision had to made for door hinges, or that the span of the unsupported shelf was too great, but through no fault of her own, Macca didn't know that, and it's arrogant to just ignore her requirements regardless of how impractical they may have been without at least acknowledging them and giving her the opportunity to understand why.

    Ian
    Thanks Ian for your input.

    You have put what I am trying to say better.

    I know it happens a lot. My friends were telling me stories and a few said they have just given up worrying about it.

    The hospital had a disabled persons shower installed. They stuffed it up, put the drain on the high end of the floor. So a pool of water was left in the low un-drained end.

    One person asked for the tiles to be done matching the straight kitchen ones, not diagonal. Yes, yes, yes, they say, yes we can do that. The come home after work and suprise; they are layed diagonal.

    And on and on.



  3. #53
    Member Ian Smith's Avatar
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    Macca,
    Our posts crossed, and I wish I'd seen yours first.

    From what you've said it is reasonable for you to have expected to get what you wanted. It is wholly unreasonable that you didn't. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.

    My advice to you is to learn to do as much as possible/legal for yourself. When you think you need to engage help find someone you can trust or look for an alternative way to solve your problem.

    As I said in my first post - they are their own worst enemy.

    Finally remember the golden rule about getting help - "The minimum you ask is the maximum you'll get".

    Ian

  4. #54
    ......say what? martrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makka619 View Post
    The kitchen was completed beautifully; by my ex tech teacher nontheless.

    No hassles. He couldn’t do something as I asked. Told me later, we sat down and worked out a way to get around it. In the end we got what I wanted with a minor change.

    Everything was perfectly designed and constructed to meet all of my verbal wants and desires as he agreed could be done. No surprises. Nadda. I bow down to his professionalism, and have and will continue to recommend him with such high praises whenever I can.
    Can I ask why you didnt get your ex Tech teacher to make the cabinet?
    I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
    Albert Einstein

  5. #55
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Smith View Post
    Macca,
    Our posts crossed, and I wish I'd seen yours first.

    From what you've said it is reasonable for you to have expected to get what you wanted. It is wholly unreasonable that you didn't. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.

    My advice to you is to learn to do as much as possible/legal for yourself. When you think you need to engage help find someone you can trust or look for an alternative way to solve your problem.

    As I said in my first post - they are their own worst enemy.

    Finally remember the golden rule about getting help - "The minimum you ask is the maximum you'll get".

    Ian
    You are completely right. Thankyou.

  6. #56
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martrix View Post
    Can I ask why you didnt get your ex Tech teacher to make the cabinet?
    He designs kitchens, not closets.


  7. #57
    1K Club Member journeyman Mick's Avatar
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    Makka,
    it's very poor that the bloke didn't listen to you and very poor business wise. However, if you really push the case, the plan (even though he wasn't going to give it to you) forms part of the contract documentation. I don't know how/if you can resolve this satisfactorily.

    In general work needs to be specified in writing or with a plan or preferably both. Discuss the plans with anyone quoting on the job and specify that they will refer to the plans/specs in their quotation. Ie: $XXXX for cabinet/tiles/kitchen/drain/whatever as per drawings specifications supplied by client. By doing this you are communicating key points:
    1) When I get other people to quote on this I'll be comparing apples with apples so I'm not wasting your time
    2) I know exactly what's required and what I want
    3) if it all goes pear shape then i have a legally powerful document so don't f**k with me!

    Mick
    "If you need a machine today and don't buy it,

    tomorrow you will have paid for it and not have it."

    - Henry Ford 1938

  8. #58
    Jake Darvall
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    Quote Originally Posted by makka619 View Post

    oh well. You'll be right. Keep your chin up. Go have a glass of wine or something.

    Men. we're all baaaaaarstards. Even when we do everything right. We're still baaaaarstards.

  9. #59
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    It seems as though at the moment it's more important to you to get everyone to agree with you that you've been hardly done by than it is to solve your problem. How about moving on from that and looking at what, if anything, you are going to do about it.

    From your telling of the story, it sounds like you have been stuffed around, there are always two sides to a story - but let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Now, what are you going to do about it? If you're just blowing off steam and don't intend to do anything, then there's nothing more to say.

  10. #60
    ......say what? martrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makka619 View Post
    He designs kitchens, not closets.

    A box is a box.

    Any competent "Cabinetmaker" should be able to go from a kitchen, to a closet, to a dining room table.

    Did he tell you he couldn't do it, or did you assume he could do it?
    I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
    Albert Einstein

  11. #61
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martrix View Post
    A box is a box.

    Any competent "Cabinetmaker" should be able to go from a kitchen, to a closet, to a dining room table.

    Did he tell you he couldn't do it, or did you assume he could do it?
    It's irrelevant.

  12. #62
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    It seems as though at the moment it's more important to you to get everyone to agree with you that you've been hardly done by than it is to solve your problem. How about moving on from that and looking at what, if anything, you are going to do about it.

    From your telling of the story, it sounds like you have been stuffed around, there are always two sides to a story - but let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Now, what are you going to do about it? If you're just blowing off steam and don't intend to do anything, then there's nothing more to say.


    LOL yes I am online lying to you.



    I find that you trying to psychoanalyse me on the internet pretty weird. Does this matter that much to you? That you think you need to look deeper past my discriptions?

    I am blowing off a bit of steam. Of course I know how I feel about it and what I am going to about it. Nothing you say matters. And by all means whatever you want to think, I ain't stopping you.

  13. #63
    Neander Normite Groggy's Avatar
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    Generally the true mark of a tradesman is not whether they get it right first time, but how they respond to fixing problems - whether their fault or not.

    If he digs in there is not a lot you can do about it, as the others say, it is in the drawings.

    Will he compromise at all?

  14. #64
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    Why did you bother putting "WHAT DO I DO" in the thread subject line then? You obviously just want to have a whinge.

  15. #65
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    Actually, now you have really gotten up my nose.

    You come on with your "woe is me" tale. A few people offer you suggestions on what to do but you ignore them and just focus on the ones who suggest you might have been in the wrong in the first place. Then you accuse me of trying to psychoanalyse you. All I'm trying to do is focus on solving your problem and moving on from who is to blame. Then you say you know what you are going to do and what I say or think doesn't matter. So exactly what do you want us to do for you? If you didn't want anything, then why post.

    I feel a bit sorry for the guy having to deal with you actually.

  16. #66
    ......say what? martrix's Avatar
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    ............whatever.

    The sun is shining outside, have a nice day
    I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
    Albert Einstein

  17. #67
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    Why did you bother putting "WHAT DO I DO" in the thread subject line then? You obviously just want to have a whinge.

    Is that such a bad thing.

    Stop reading so much into it.

    It shouldn't matter to you about any of my responses

  18. #68
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martrix View Post
    ............whatever.

    The sun is shining outside, have a nice day

    Thanks You too.

    I just don't want this thread to drag on off topic. As you have seen from some of the recent responses, it will go around in circles for ever. I have an opinion, know how I feel and what I plan to do about it.

    Thanks for your input though, honestly.

  19. #69
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but when I read "Help. WHAT DO I DO" I assumed that you wanted help. My mistake...

  20. #70
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    I'm sorry, but when I read "Help. WHAT DO I DO" I assumed that you wanted help. My mistake...

    silentC: you know I was upset. And probably started this thread in haste. I apologise for that.

    Really my problem here is not something to try and communcate via the net. I should sort it out on my own where it is a reality.

    I have not meant to offend you. I just think it's getting a little out of hand.

  21. #71
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    I just think it's getting a little out of hand
    I agree. Stop biting everyone's heads off and we'll all get on fine

    We're all really just decent people trying to help. That's all. Hope you get it sorted out to your satisfaction.

  22. #72
    Jake Darvall
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    ... gone all lovey dovey.

  23. #73
    A Member of the Holy Trinity silentC's Avatar
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    It's all you need

  24. #74
    Northernmost member in Oz Jack E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Smith View Post
    <O</O
    It's been my experience that most of these specialists make up their mind what they are going to do within a very short time after seeing the job. You can stand there for as long as you like explaining exactly what you want, and why you want it, but it makes not the slightest bit of bloody difference because they are not listening.
    <O
    That's why I have a driveway that slopes the wrong way<O
    That's why I have house extension slab that is 10 mm lower than the original and which, by the way had to boxed up three times because the bloke didn't know what a right angle was.
    That's why the cupboard doors open the wrong way and the drawers are on the wrong side of my computer desk.<O
    That's why our air conditioner didn't work correctly for nearly two years because of over gassing.

    <O
    I don't think over gassing an air con fits in with the rest of your list.

    You said yourself that if you want something done properly do it yourself,

    Well go ahead and stop having a go at tradies.

    Some people need to learn that you can't do everything yourself, be it for legal reasons, required skills or essential equipment requirements.

    The biggest lesson to learn is that YOU need to ensure that the tradesman understands exactly what you want, and that if he doesn't deliver, he doesn't get paid.

    BTW, what is it that you do for a living?

    Cheers, Jack
    "There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

  25. #75
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    I think that all tradies need to communicate with you when they are changing the plans from something you specify and they verbally agree can and will be done.

    If it is something you want and they say it is something they can do, then it adds to your decision in hiring this person for the job. If they can't do something that you specifically tell them you need then they should be honest and tell you so. If for some reason they don't understand it can't be done until a later date, they need to inform you as they find out before changing the design.

    Things are solved this way, it gives clients the opportunity to think about what they would like to do if the original plan can't go ahead. By the way the builder said he could have put the gap in there, with enough room on the wood to hold the hinges. Perhaps not ideal, but something I would like to have had the choice in deciding on.

    It is the same everywhere in professional businesses. You are there to help the client; that is your job. You need to keep in contact with the client with any problems no matter how seemingly small. It the client asks for something one way and it can't be done, you call them and let them know.

    You can not assume that just because it can't be done then you will do it how you see fit. I could have chosen sliding doors to get what I want. Yes that would probably cost more, but who is he to make the decision that I won't be able to afford sliding doors. There are many options, but as long as I am not informed that he can't do what I want then I never get the chance to look into them.

    It is his job as the designer to draw up the architectural plans to get what I want. If I knew how to do this, I would have had no reason for hiring him and done it myself and gone straight to a builder. His job is to tell me what can be done, once he agrees that what I ask for is possible and will be done I will take his word for it.

    If he must change the plans because it is impossible to do, I need to be told. He can not assume that just because he realises it can't be done the way I ask, he can change it without telling me and I will be happy.

  26. #76
    Member Ian Smith's Avatar
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    Jack E ,
    I work for *** as a ######### ######## ##### and ************ ******* since you ask, although what that has to do do with anything is a bit of a mystery.
    Yeah, maybe the air-con is a bit out of left field, but there's a story there that I won't go into here. Fact remains that a Refrigeration tradesman installed the thing and buggered it up.
    I can't do everything, more's the pity, because if I could I would, and if you took the trouble to read my posts you'd see that.
    Yes, you're correct in saying that it's up to me to ensure that the tradesman understands what I want, but I have experienced enough situations where they nod their head and agree with everything I say, and promptly go of and do it their way.
    So you're wrong mate ,the tradesman is supposed to be the expert, not me, and it's up to him/her to point out any problems with what I want, and if there aren't any ,then that's the way it should be done.

    Anyway, I've said as much already in my previous posts and I'm getting the feeling I'm talking to a tradesman who isn't listening.

    Ian

  27. #77
    Senior Member makka619's Avatar
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    Of course it's your own duty to make sure tradesmen know what you want.

    The tradesman completely understood what I wanted.

    It is also a tradesman duty to follow through on what you want. What do they do when they can no longer do the job how you had asked and both agreed on? Not informing of making a change and just doing it any way they see fit, is rude.

    Like I said, the guy who installed my kitchen had no problem calling me as soon as a problem arose.

    When I was an intern at the paper, I worked around a few jobs. Everything revolved around making the customer happy. You must meet their needs. Someone wants an ad in the paper, they ask for it bolded, you tell them you can do that. Later you find out it can't be done, you call the client before proceeding with the ad. Might seem like a simple thing, but with the amount of ads that come through, and the constant deadlines, making phone calls is time consuming. Yet it must be done.

    The way I see it, is the customer is paying for your service. You are there to help them get what they want.

    I don't care if they built the taj mahal for me, it's not what I asked for and not what I was told I would get.

  28. #78
    hardly human Clinton1's Avatar
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    No hassles. He couldn’t do something as I asked. Told me later, we sat down and worked out a way to get around it. In the end we got what I wanted with a minor change.
    Everything was perfectly designed and constructed to meet all of my verbal wants and desires as he agreed could be done. No surprises.
    That is a good tradie.

    Don't know how you will fix the problem with the bloke who did your cupboard.
    Don't think that this smartarses has pulled a swifty on you just cause you are a woman... no doubt he'd do it to anyone that presented the same problem.

    I say smartarse as you've said that you made your requirements clear, and that he said that he understood them... then he decided to do it a different way and 'slipped' the change in via a document rather than talking you through it.

    Comments in regards to "well, you should be able to read the drawing" are unrealistic and unhelpful...
    if you clearly communicated your requirements to him and if he said he understood them, then any changes/variations should be explained. Slipping them through on a document that wasn't going to be given to you is just plain dodgy.

    Question:
    Have you explained to the bloke why you are dissatisfied?

    Have you asked what he will do, now that you have something that does not meet your specifications?
    If so, what were the answers?


    Sorry if this has been covered previously, I might have missed it in the preceeding pages.
    Cheers,
    Clinton

    "Use your third eye" - Watson

  29. #79
    Oink! Oink! pawnhead's Avatar
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    You could have had a clear opening and three doors with a bifold on one side (Or four doors with a bifold on each side), and floor to ceiling doors.
    With no track, you could have separate doors on top. If you'd wanted a guide track it would be extra, but without it, I would have charged less, and built it on site.

    $1250 is alright money for that job.
    It's just a guesstimate, but I reckon the sheet would be less than $250, and the rest of the gear would be around $200. That's 800 bucks (+/- $100) in the skyrocket for a couple of days work tops.
    (I could be a bit out though. Cabinetmaking isn't my main line)

    Not bad money.

    Cheers
    Cheers, John

    Short Stack (my son's band)


  30. #80
    Northernmost member in Oz Jack E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Smith View Post
    I work for *** as a ######### ######## ##### and ************ ******* since you ask, although what that has to do do with anything is a bit of a mystery.
    I ask because you seem to think that the way you want a job done is the best, regardless of what the trady has learnt in his field.
    I thought that you may be able to look at your profession and see an example where an amateur thinks he knows better than the professional they are hiring to do the work

    Tradesman love nothing more than a bit of advice from someone who thinks he knows what he is doing

    However, we should all try to please the customer.
    If someone wants something done a particular way, I will try to do it that way, if it isn't going to work I will tell them why.

    Cheers, Jack
    "There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

  31. #81
    Jake Darvall
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    WELL, I reakon.......nahhh forget it.

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