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Waterproof only the Shower Recess or ENTIRE bathroom floor ?

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  1. #1
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    Default Waterproof only the Shower Recess or ENTIRE bathroom floor ?

    Hi

    I have a bathroom on the first floor. It has a fresh screed. No waterproofing under the screed.

    The tiler has so far only waterproofed the shower recess area.

    I think he should waterproof the entire bathroom floor, just to be sure, I do not mind paying some more. Just for piece of mind even if its not a 2nd floor bathroom. (he says on 2nd floor bathrooms he even subbies the waterproofing out to a licensed waterproofer so he can obtain their certificate for future recalls - this is not happening with me though)

    He mentioned that the way he tiles no water gets through the tiles or grout so outside the shower recess doesnt need waterproofing. When we hot mop the floor to clean, sometimes quite alot of water goes down on the zone outside the shower recess .

    From what I have read here and elsewhere water will always find its way through the tiles and grout somehow,

    I see in this thread

    https://www.renovateforum.com/f205/w...-tiles-124988/

    rebuilder86

    yes thats right, but my point is that as you have experienced a waterproofing issue, therefor i would go and check out the vital areas, like shower recess; now before it becomes too late.
    This is what i do when inspecting a problem at a job, because one failure means its likely that the builder was useless, like many are!
    There should be a membrane over entire floor of bathroom, and up the shower walls well above the water outlet.
    Remove the fittings that cover the tap handles in the shower, and see if you can see waterproofing membrane behind the tiles and glue.
    If not go head and get someone in to check for moisture in the walls
    and

    so to put it bluntly, perfect non cracked, completely sound grout is not waterproof, however it does resist flow of water, which greatly reduces the amount of water which flows through it, so the crack would expedite the flow of water, but sealing it from the outside (where you can see) is not going to properly fix the problem.
    rebuilder86 advises to coat the entire floor. So I think I will ask him to do this.

    Q2
    I see mentions of waterproofing to prevent a damp smell in a bathroom if you do not waterproof the entire floor and water inevitably seeps through the grout to the screed. If the entire floor is waterproofed though, and water seeps through, how does it ever dry out? is there a chance for a damp smell anyway? wouldnt the ultimate waterproofing barrier be on the top of the tiles and grout? so any water left sitting will evaporate into the air?

  2. #2
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    In addition to my questions above I found this


    concrete-floor-membrane-above-under-screed.jpg

    https://www.renovatorstore.com.au/bl...-shower-grate/

    so it seems to confirm water DOES seep through grout and tiles or maybe just the grout not the tiles themselves and then travels along the membrane
    (which if on the LH side of the above image is above the screed or on the RH side of the above image, below the screed), until it hits the drainage pipe. If a puddle flange has been used I see the blog link and image further points out

    What some installers do incorrectly is seal or tightly fit the tray outlet into the plumbed drain. In this scenario the sub-surface water cannot escape as the membrane is water tight and the drain is sealed - and over the years your bathroom will smell damp and eventually your tiles will pop.

    1
    it doesnt seem like it matters whether on top or below the screed, personally i dont see why you would want below screed waterproofing, why saturate the screed in the first place?
    2
    So i understand now that the water-proofing membrane on the floor should have slope to the lowest point in the room (the drain). It is just like a pool. Water will then always seep with gravity to the drain point. It certainly will not be evaporating back upwards the grout will it?

    That then leaves me wondering about my question of waterproofing the rest of the floor outside the shower recess, it seems to my laymen eyes to be mostly level, though there is one other drain outside the shower recess so presumably there must be some slope to this. If there wasnt though or the slope was inadequate , what would happen as the water seeped down on top of the waterproofed screed with no where to go? just sit there damp and start smelling? if so then my point about a clear membrane that sits on top of the installed tiles/grout would be best as the water can then evaporate to the air.

  3. #3
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    Ur tiler is lying, but dont hold that against him. Waterproofing an entire bathroom on a ground floor in my opinion is a bit of a waste of time.
    If there is going to be a large enough spill there for a long enough time for grout absorption to be a problem, then the water will allready be out the door in to the next room.
    You wont find any ground floor bathrooms in new builds in W A with full waterproofing. It just doesnt happen.

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    This source states it quite well.

    Quote:
    ................
    Waterproofing rules and regulations
    There are regulations in place that your waterproofing will need to comply with, as set out by the Building Code of Australia and Australian Standards (AS 3740-1994). In short, they require that:

    In the shower, the whole floor must be waterproof and the shower walls should be waterproofed up to 1800mm.
    The walls need to be waterproofed up to 150mm.
    If the bathroom floor is made of or contains wood or if the bathroom is on the second story or higher, the whole floor must be waterproofed.
    Over the step down to the floor should be waterproofed to 100mm.

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    Areas u should make sure get thourough attention are the following:
    Ensure waterproofing goes well beyond the extents of the walls near the recess, because water travels sideways behind tiles and sometimes even upwards. (cappiliary action)
    Ensure he silicones every corner with acid cure silicone, but doesnt let that silicone go anywear near the waterproofing membrane.
    Ensure the membrane is applied all the way to the brass fitting of all plumbing protrusions in the shower recess.
    A. For any permanent fittings like outlets and mixer bodies: a neutral cure silicone can be used between the tile and fitting.
    B. For spindles or other removable protrusions: the neutral cure silicone should only be applied from the polished tile glazing to the membrane, and not touching the brass protrusions.
    These are important steps, because if water gets behind the tiles and glue here, it will travel sidewards untill it finds bare render and bare its head in the adjacent rooms over the coming years.
    When the shower screen goes in, for the love of god, silicone the outside, not the inside.
    Ive not once found a shower screen installed propperly to aus stds.
    Also ensure that the plastic wall plugs that the screen goes, into are filled with neutral cure silicone and smeared over before the screw and frame goes in.
    Because if the silicone is done properly on the outside of the screen, the penetrations through the tiles and waterproofing will undoubtedly cause leaks.

  6. #6
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    the waste flange in the shower recess so far looks like this

    img_1626.jpg

    its a 60 mm pipe.

    snippet.jpg

    Given I have the setup on the LH side if you see my red arrow , it appears that the waterproofing still has to run right down into the actual plastic pipe, otherwise as its presently done (first image above with bare screed parts) it will seep back into the screed?

    It seems to me to need to be smoother and painted fully down over that bare screed into the actual pipe?

    like the below not that it shows down into it very well

    wp-painted-down-into-flange.jpg

    2nd question

    img_1633-large-.jpg

    The pipe is 60mm and the bottom of that smart tile is 40mm.

    concrete-floor-install.jpg

    The blog its from says
    What many homeowners do not appreciate is that water actually travels under tiles through grout and screed - like a slow seepage.
    It therefore needs to be able escape over the membrane and into the plumbed drain. The diagram above highlights that the shower
    grate outlet and tray should leave sufficient space between the plumbed drain and the tray outlet so this sub-surface water can escape.
    Common Errors on Installing Shower Channels
    What some installers do incorrectly is seal or tightly fit the tray outlet into the plumbed drain. In this scenario the sub-surface water cannot
    escape as the membrane is water tight and the drain is sealed - and over the years your bathroom will smell damp and eventually your tiles will pop.
    https://www.renovatorstore.com.au/blog/how-to-install-a-shower-grate/

    Rebuilder86 and others

    given the base of that metal smart tile above is not meant to rest directly on the membrane but leave a small gap like the above image so water that seeps into the screed can still reach the pipe, how is this achieved? any pictures of your own work or from another site.

    Rebuilder86 you did say this


    https://www.renovateforum.com/f247/w...9/#post1084423

    Every drain grate ive installed has been so loose in the pipe that its not an issue. I stuff them in with lots of glue in the 4 corners (of a square one) and make sure there are little gaps in the glue on each flat side so that any moisture that gathers near the drain can get into the drain fast.
    Most ppl smear the glue around the entire thing, but the glue is pretty water resistant so thats not a good iead.
    For round ones, i put blobs of glue at 33 degrees around and push it in.
    Do you have some images or sketches of this?

    apologies for the discussion over a few threads.

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    bahh just lost my long reply.
    Now i have to shorten it.
    Im speaking to u like ur the tiler, who i think may be inexperienced btw,

    1. find out which orientation u need. some ppl prefer to avoid sharp cuts, so diagonal is often best.
    grate-orientation.png
    2. lay the grate upside down centred on the waste and mark it out around the outside + 3 mm.
    3. Work out the depth it needs to sit to be just underneath level ( at the grate) with the top of the tiles, and add 4 mm further deep for glue.
    4. Cut that much away using grinder and chisel.
    5.Test fit with a 4 mm spacer underneath and check it will sit just below flush.
    6. smooth out the square cutout with tile glue. YES TILE GLUE. and let that cure.
    7. apply waterproofing over the entire thing again 2 coats and down into the waste.
    8. leave to cure
    9. lay the waste grate loosely in the pipe with the 4 mm spacer under it, and start tiling around it, making sure the tiles finish up just above the waste.
    10. go away untill the tile glue is completely cured.
    11. now glue the grate in with dobs of glue in 4 corners only.
    12. Grout everything

  8. #8
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    Is there an aluminum angle inside the shower (under the tile) area so water cannot seep out of the shower via the screed?

    'He mentioned that the way he tiles no water gets through the tiles or grout so outside the shower recess doesnt need waterproofing' I think your tiler is a bit too confident of his abilities

    Me? I'll waterproof the entire floor with an aluminum angle at the door.

    I'm owner building a new house and I interviewed a tiler on the weekend. I went to his one of his jobs... the tiling was quite good. He also states he does waterproofing.

    I noticed on the ground floor, concrete.. no waterproof on floor outside shower area.

    Upstairs, waterproofing on floor but no aluminum angle at door or shower area. which means water can escape out the door. He advised was taking instructions from the builder.

    Smart tile used but no puddle flange.

    Tiler mentioned he waterproofs under and over the screed.

    I think a lot of builders are blase about waterproofing (and a lot of other things), waterproofing is something you do not wish to risk.

    I'm thinking of doing my own waterproofing as at least I know it will be done properly.

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    thanks both of you for the replies above. I think its almost worth having a waterproofer ie a licensed waterproofer handle that part of the job as they leave you with a certificate that you can obviously hold them to.


    Where would a waterproofer come into it though?

    Let the tiler prepare the walls (patch, re render, make plum) and screed - then the waterproofer comes in? though those aluminium angles would need to go in prior to the screed?

    Also what about just used a waterproof screed in the first place? (still doesnt help if the water is under the tile, on top of the waterproof screed but has no where to go?)
    ** or a tiler who can do waterproofing well.
    *** good idea interviewing the tiler

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    Yes waterproofing is apparently the biggest cause of complaints in every states building industry authorities by a factor of 3.
    In my opinion u shouldnt waterproof above and below screed. Why do i say this, cement cures over periods of years not days. If the screed is encased in membrane it will never cure. Plus the membrane applied to the top of a screed may fail due to the screeds low tensile strength which leads to cracking which leada to water entering the screed. If the screed is sealed closed it will deteriotrate.
    This is why the original method was to screed over membrane.
    Nowadays, there are better was to make a strong screed mix that allow waterproofing on top. But only if u use such a special screed mix.
    No one i know who does new builds uses anything other than plain sand n cement. That requires them to membrane under the screed and use a slurry coat of screed first to help the screed adhere to the acrylic membrane. Personally, i use tile glue instead of slurry.
    You wouldnt want to do this for an entire bathroom, as the screed would shrink enough over such a large area to damage the waterproofing underneath.
    Sometimes its better to have the cement screed completely free and un-adheard to the membrane underneath so that it doeant crack it.
    But most often the only successfull approach is to screed and wait a week, then waterproof.
    Hopefully ive said enough to confuse u and make u think twice about DIY, not saying dont DIY, just saying, its more complicated than you can imagine. So research and think very hard about the substrates and products and environment. THINK TWICE.
    Its beyond the scope of a forum unfortunately.
    The truth is, finding a good waterproofer is just about impossible. No one sets out to study waterproofing and become an expert. Tilers just have to do it as a step in the process to get paid.

    ANYWAY
    i think dales shower recess probably i cludes a hob, in which case aluminium angle has no place.
    If no hob, waterproof the entire room.

  11. #11
    JB1
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    rebuilder,

    I'm owner building and have time on my side.

    I have a few showers to do, ground floor on cement slab, upper floor on Scyon sheeting. I will only screed the shower area and maximum shower area is about 2sqm.

    What screed mix would you recommend? Tile glue suitable?

    I'm happy to wait 1 week or 2 month to allow the screed to dry before waterproofing the whole bathroom? There is where I will hand it over to the tiler.

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    I'm not experienced with second floor stuff, so with that, get a second opinion after mine.
    But for the concrete slab, and possibly the second floor, provided it is just the shower recess, and it has a hob to hold it in, and it allows 2 cm thickness at the waste, then a very dry mix of cement and sand about 1:3 ratio.
    Use brickies sand not plasterers.
    When you are adding the water, add some of any of the following products: (listed in order of preference but may be uneconomical due to container size)

    I use lanko stuff. https://www.bunnings.com.au/lanko-5l...itive_p0967244
    5L is the smallest i think.
    MIXING
    For addition in screeds and mortars, Lanko 751 Lankolatex must be thoroughly blended to a dilute solution prior to addition into the mortar mix:
     For addition to screeds, mix 1 part Lanko 751 Lankolatex to 3 parts water.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My mate uses sika and he orders it online. Is available in 1L. I think its expensive.
    https://tradies.sikaretail.com.au/pr...reed-additive/
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But if all else fails,
    good old bondcrete or slightly better , lankos verison of bondcrete, "BONDIT" (available in 1L)
    https://www.bunnings.com.au/lanko-1l...itive_p0967278

  13. #13
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    1. find out which orientation u need. some ppl prefer to avoid sharp cuts, so diagonal is often best.
    Attachment 121616
    2. lay the grate upside down centred on the waste and mark it out around the outside + 3 mm.
    3. Work out the depth it needs to sit to be just underneath level ( at the grate) with the top of the tiles, and add 4 mm further deep for glue.
    4. Cut that much away using grinder and chisel.
    5.Test fit with a 4 mm spacer underneath and check it will sit just below flush.
    6. smooth out the square cutout with tile glue. YES TILE GLUE. and let that cure.
    7. apply waterproofing over the entire thing again 2 coats and down into the waste.
    8. leave to cure
    9. lay the waste grate loosely in the pipe with the 4 mm spacer under it, and start tiling around it, making sure the tiles finish up just above the waste.
    10. go away untill the tile glue is completely cured.
    11. now glue the grate in with dobs of glue in 4 corners only.
    12. Grout everything
    I just spoke to the tiler, here is more explanation of what he has done, my original image above is cut into a square (similar to your points 2-4)
    img_1696.jpg

    He will also fill anything (the above image has a few surface craters at present) - not sure with what though.. your step 6 mentions tile glue
    Then waterproof

    img_1697.jpg
    smart-tile-over-waste-pipe.jpg

    In the above image you can see the 40mm outlet on the drain square is smaller then the waste, I presume as long as the metal base of that square drain pipe is not hard flat in the cutout square section, then water that gets under the tiles can run along the top of the screed down into the waste, in the small sliver of gap left btw the 40mm drain tile outlet and the actual drain pipe itself.

    This is what I mean

    2-smart-tile-over-waste-pipe.jpg

    Does your step "11. now glue the grate in with dobs of glue in 4 corners only." relate to my point above about leaving a space under the drain grate bottom edge?

    The tile adhesive he uses is

    Forticrete Fortiflex: One Part Rubber Modified Tile Adhesive
    https://ardexaustralia.com/product/f...ete-fortiflex/

    Any opinion on that?

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    I hope we see that damaged flange cleaned up. Haha.
    Often i have to hack something up like that but i try to put some care into it. Sharp edges are very bad. Saying that, at this point the water is right next to its exit and we r on nothing but concrete and sand.
    Just make sure its smoothed out.
    Otherwise, thats looking good.

    As for glue, i Havent used it myself but the list of substrates on the tech sheet has me worried. No mention of waterproof membrane. Id probably steer clear of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rebuildr86 View Post
    I hope we see that damaged flange cleaned up. Haha.
    Often i have to hack something up like that but i try to put some care into it. Sharp edges are very bad. Saying that, at this point the water is right next to its exit and we r on nothing but concrete and sand.
    Just make sure its smoothed out.
    Otherwise, thats looking good.

    As for glue, i Havent used it myself but the list of substrates on the tech sheet has me worried. No mention of waterproof membrane. Id probably steer clear of that.
    Do you mean it might not be suitable to be placed onto waterproof membrane?

    Can I ask in relation to a post up
    Does your step "11. now glue the grate in with dobs of glue in 4 corners only." relate to my point above about leaving a space under the drain grate bottom edge?

    I noticed the tech sheet said not to spot fix, is that when a tiler just puts dobs of glue on and doesnt use that ribbed trowel?

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    Youd be surprised how many idiots still put dobs of glue around a tile and expect it to last. I worked for one.
    Thats right, thats what the manufacturer, unfortunately, still has to say on the bag.

  17. #17
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    Dobs are glue are fine for smaller wall tiles but definitely full trowel for floor tiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuildr86 View Post
    I'm not experienced with second floor stuff, so with that, get a second opinion after mine.
    But for the concrete slab, and possibly the second floor, provided it is just the shower recess, and it has a hob to hold it in, and it allows 2 cm thickness at the waste, then a very dry mix of cement and sand about 1:3 ratio.
    Use brickies sand not plasterers.
    When you are adding the water, add some of any of the following products: (listed in order of preference but may be uneconomical due to container size)

    I use lanko stuff. https://www.bunnings.com.au/lanko-5l...itive_p0967244
    5L is the smallest i think.
    MIXING
    For addition in screeds and mortars, Lanko 751 Lankolatex must be thoroughly blended to a dilute solution prior to addition into the mortar mix:
     For addition to screeds, mix 1 part Lanko 751 Lankolatex to 3 parts water.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My mate uses sika and he orders it online. Is available in 1L. I think its expensive.
    https://tradies.sikaretail.com.au/pr...reed-additive/
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But if all else fails,
    good old bondcrete or slightly better , lankos verison of bondcrete, "BONDIT" (available in 1L)
    https://www.bunnings.com.au/lanko-1l...itive_p0967278
    Thanks very much, I have 6 showers to do ranging from 0.9sqm to 1.8sqm

    Shower recess is approx 40mm deep. I plan on having of the tiles of shower area say 10mm below the bathroom FFL, creating a small step down shower/hob.

    The screed will be about 30mm thick at the waste.

    I have plenty to leftover brickies sand.

    That SikaTite® Screed Additive is slightly cheaper per L, however its 1:1 ratio with water makes it uneconomical.

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    my mate swears by the sika stuff, and lets face it, sika are usually talked about as the leader, but honestly, the only thing we have to go off is the manufacturers tests and tech data and the lanko stuff meets the requirements and is more readily available.
    I trust lanko because I have used all of their levellers, primers, and additives since I started this horrible career and touch wood, ive never had a come back.

    In terms of shower screeds, probably the most important property is tensile strength, the ability for the screed to stretch all over rather than crack when it is pulled apart by the thermal expansion of substrates and tiles.
    Because if it cracks, and its well bonded to the membrane, it'll crack the membrane.

    So lanko 751 (lankolatex) gets you about 1.8 Mpa on paper but id say in reality its probably a lot better than that:
    TEST DATA: (mixed with mortar)
    Properties:
    Appearance: White Liquid
    Specific Gravity of Mix: 1.00kg/L
    Tensile Strength (28 days): 1.8MPa
    Working Time of Mortars: 5 – 20 mins
    Drying Time of Mortars: 4 – 6 hours

    YOU HAVE 6 SHOWERS???
    who am i talking to haha?
    is that you mr Gates?

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    I'm sure the lanko is good enough, in the old days (and I'm sure many today) they just used plain, sand,cement and water.

    Naah not a mansion, we're building 2 houses, so 3 bathrooms each. Although I have seen houses with 6 bathrooms... each of the 5 bedroom had their own ensuite, plus a common bathroom.

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    yep, but in the good old days, they were doing a minimum 40mm (usually 100mm) un-bonded self supporting screed over a sandpit with no concrete under it and the water just drained away.
    Nowadays its more like feather-edge near the waste all because of the way hobs and frame less screens and recesses have become the norm.

    So the regs now say 15 to 40mm for bonded screeds and a minimum of 40mm for un-bonded self supporting screeds.
    Basically i try to convince every customer i get that they should have a hob, even if its a small hob, to make room for a thick enough screed for it to be able to be thrown in without a slurry coat (un-bonded).
    So when they absolutely need it hobbless, or step down, i just use floor levelling compound straight to the slab and waterproof that then glue the tiles to that. NO SCREED. Just do it with a dry floor levelling mix and keep a good fall.

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