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Ceiling gap left by removed wall - help!

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  1. #1
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    Default Ceiling gap left by removed wall - help!

    Hi all,
    First time poster, so be gentle =) Also, pre-apologies if this is in the wrong area.

    I have recently removed a wall in my house, between the kitchen/dining and living rooms. This leaves an open room roughly 6m x 6m with an L shaped gap (wall width) in the plaster on my ceiling. I really want to have a go at patching this myself but have never plastered before.

    The short leg of the L runs across the battens and with the run of the boards and should be pretty straightforward... I hope. I assume that these are the steps that I should take:

    1. Tidy up the existing plaster to ensure there is a uniform gap.
    2. Clean up crappy gap filler that had been used around the wooden architrave (didn't have plaster cornices) and sand back the paint.
    3. Back block between battens (using cornice cement?), adhesive on battens, screws on edges.
    4. Use paper tape on the butt joints and make the joints really wide. I think they will have to be wide anyway as 10mm plaster is slightly thicker than the 3/8 inch board on the ceiling so it will sit slightly proud anyway.

    One question though, what do I do if I end up with a recessed edge of plaster against a cut edge? How do I go about that join?

    The long leg of the L has be stuffed though as it runs parallel to the battens and across the run of the existing boards. Here are the options that I can think of. Please comment, trash, suggest as you feel led.

    Option 1: run a batten up the center of the gap, screw/adhisive to that.
    Problems: The edges would be largely unsupported as there isn't enough batten to screw to on the sides, and not enough plasterboard to affix backblocks. Would this lack of support matter for a 15cm gap? Also, the plasterboards on each side aren't perfectly level.

    Option 2: run two battens, one on each edge.
    Problems: The existing battens on each edge are a dog's breakfast. I'm also worried about getting the levels right as the old battens are imperial and the new will be metric and I suspect won't line up perfectly. Plus the plasterboards on each side are not level.

    Option 3: run mini noggin type battens between the existing battens.
    Problems: Would give me more support along the way but the same lack of edge support of option 1.

    Option 4: combo of 2 and 3.
    Problems: A lot of fiddly work and the problems of option 2.

    Option 5: run a false beam down the gap, cornice on the top, external edges on the bottom.
    Problems: I don't know how! I only read about this option on the forums this morning, but I like it. I haven't run it past the Minister for War and Finance, but I think she'll take it.

    Option 6: ???

    I'm leaning towards option 5 as I met a guy yesterday that did the exact same reno on the exact same floorplan in the exact same suburb as me, and his cracked every year. He said that professional plasterers told him that there isn't anything they could do about it. I'd rather have a small beam than cracks. It would also nullify the problem of differing levels on each side.

    Can anyone point me to a 'How to' on this idea or otherwise point me in the right direction?

    Cheers,
    Kris
    Last edited by shiftybugger; 2nd Aug 2010 at 04:11 PM. Reason: typos, more info

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    You're in the right area Kris, so hang in there, and help will arrive.

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    Did you check in the roof space to make sure the wall wasnt load bearing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brickie View Post
    Did you check in the roof space to make sure the wall wasnt load bearing?
    Yep =) It is an ex govie house. My bro in law used to work for them repairing after tenants had 'modified' them and he told me that they all have trussed roofs and no internal load bearing walls.

    But, just to be sure, I threw my younger brother who is a builder up into the roof to check as well. Pity he lives 3000 kms away or I'd be having him do all of this.

    Cheers,
    Kris

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftybugger View Post
    Hi all,
    First time poster, so be gentle =) Also, pre-apologies if this is in the wrong area.

    I have recently removed a wall in my house, between the kitchen/dining and living rooms. This leaves an open room roughly 6m x 6m with an L shaped gap (wall width) in the plaster on my ceiling. I really want to have a go at patching this myself but have never plastered before.

    The short leg of the L runs across the battens and with the run of the boards and should be pretty straightforward... I hope. I assume that these are the steps that I should take:
    Ok lets have a go at this.
    1. Tidy up the existing plaster to ensure there is a uniform gap.
    Yes this is a good idea.
    2. Clean up crappy gap filler that had been used around the wooden architrave (didn't have plaster cornices) and sand back the paint.
    Scraping this back might be easier.

    3. Back block between battens (using cornice cement?), adhesive on battens, screws on edges.
    Back block the join with cornice cement between the battens.

    4. Use paper tape on the butt joints and make the joints really wide. I think they will have to be wide anyway as 10mm plaster is slightly thicker than the 3/8 inch board on the ceiling so it will sit slightly proud anyway.
    Yes use paper tape and you will have to trowel it up wide. You can use packers under the trimmers so the 10mm sheet will sit flush or slightly under. Prefill the entire joint before taping and scrape back flush. This will give you a great base to run the tape on without it bubbeling down. Doing this will give you the flattest possible butt join.

    One question though, what do I do if I end up with a recessed edge of plaster against a cut edge? How do I go about that join?
    Pre fill this flat before taping so it is flat with the other sheet. Same as the step above. Just make sure once it has set scrape it back flush.

    The long leg of the L has be stuffed though as it runs parallel to the battens and across the run of the existing boards. Here are the options that I can think of. Please comment, trash, suggest as you feel led.

    Option 1: run a batten up the center of the gap, screw/adhisive to that.
    Problems: The edges would be largely unsupported as there isn't enough batten to screw to on the sides, and not enough plasterboard to affix backblocks. Would this lack of support matter for a 15cm gap? Also, the plasterboards on each side aren't perfectly level.

    Option 2: run two battens, one on each edge.
    Problems: The existing battens on each edge are a dog's breakfast. I'm also worried about getting the levels right as the old battens are imperial and the new will be metric and I suspect won't line up perfectly. Plus the plasterboards on each side are not level.

    Option 3: run mini noggin type battens between the existing battens.
    Problems: Would give me more support along the way but the same lack of edge support of option 1.

    Option 4: combo of 2 and 3.
    Problems: A lot of fiddly work and the problems of option 2.

    Option 5: run a false beam down the gap, cornice on the top, external edges on the bottom.
    Problems: I don't know how! I only read about this option on the forums this morning, but I like it. I haven't run it past the Minister for War and Finance, but I think she'll take it.

    Option 6: ???

    I'm leaning towards option 5 as I met a guy yesterday that did the exact same reno on the exact same floorplan in the exact same suburb as me, and his cracked every year. He said that professional plasterers told him that there isn't anything they could do about it. I'd rather have a small beam than cracks. It would also nullify the problem of differing levels on each side.

    Can anyone point me to a 'How to' on this idea or otherwise point me in the right direction?

    Cheers,
    Kris
    Well, as a plasterer I would cut back the existing sheet 1/2 on the battens and fix the infill onto the 1/2 batten. Even if they run out, the entire area will be trowelled anyway so it will not matter that the infill is in bits. Provided that you trowel it properly. Yes there are always possibilities of this type of repair cracking. Done with paper tape and trowelled properly it should come up alright. It you have different levels, provided it is not too great, you can trowel out VERY wide and eliminate say up to 5mm but you will need to trowel it about a metre wide. Possibly not an easy task to get right for a handyman.

    There is nothing wrong with the bulkhead option and match the existing cornice.

    Or you can cut the sheets back and put a much wider infill that will allow you to spread the discrepency over a wider area. Even cutting it back the width of another sheet ie 1200mm use a chalkline to mark it out and cut through the old with a panel saw between battens. Then trim out along the edge of the sheet by screwing trimmers every 450mm along the sheet. I normally use metal batten but 40x20 pine cut up will do the job nice. Usually I do not screw the screws on the existing plasterboard all the way in until I have screwed up the infill strip. This is to stop the screws pushing through when you put pressure on the screws when screwing in the strip. The trimmers need to be at least 350mm long and be 1/2 on each sheet with 2 screws each side.

    That just about covers all your options.

    Cheers Rod
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    Thanks for the tips Rod, much appreciated. Cheers on the website as well.

    Can anyone give me an idea about the best way to go about creating a false beam/bulkhead about 100mm wide, 150-200mm deep?

    Another option floated to me is to just take it all down and rehang and restop the whole ceiling. Half of the ceiling is in acrylic ceiling white and the other half in semi gloss enamel so I would have to sand it all back to be able to paint it. Less work to rehang the ceiling methinks...

    Cheers,
    Kris

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftybugger View Post
    Thanks for the tips Rod, much appreciated. Cheers on the website as well.

    Can anyone give me an idea about the best way to go about creating a false beam/bulkhead about 100mm wide, 150-200mm deep?

    Another option floated to me is to just take it all down and rehang and restop the whole ceiling. Half of the ceiling is in acrylic ceiling white and the other half in semi gloss enamel so I would have to sand it all back to be able to paint it. Less work to rehang the ceiling methinks...

    Cheers,
    Kris
    Just go over the top of what is there.
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    I've just been up the ladder this evening to have a poke around and it seems that the ceiling is sagging just a tad in the middle of both of the old rooms. I take it that means that going over the top wouldn't be a good idea?

    This job just keeps growing. I'm glad I didn't sit down and figure this stuff out before I knocked the wall out, or I never would have started!

  9. #9
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    Sounds like you may need to put a beam in to support the ceiling and roof!!!
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    Time for an update!

    I went with the false beam idea. The run is about 6.5 metres long, so getting it straight was a pain. A chalkline and lots of basecoat to pack it out has it straight as a die.

    I am doing other bits of patching around the place as well as the joins mentioned in the OP. I am having a bit of trouble getting the paper tape to laminate properly over painted areas, although surprisingly I'm not having any more trouble over the gloss enamel paint than the ceiling white. I've cut out the non laminated bits and redone, but it's an ongoing process. I have been sanding the paint and putting down a nice think wet layer of plaster, but I think that I am just squeezing too much of it out and scraping it back too thin. Any tips for getting the tape to stick to the painted surfaces and not sit too proud?

    My next big problem is the cornicing. The room is about 6.5m x 6.5m with the false beam up the centre, a small stub wall, kitchen with bulkheads... all up about 25 mitred joins. A lot of work, but I think that I can sort that out. The problem is that there are three 6+ metre runs, and I only have 3600 long cornices so I'm going to have to do joins mid run.

    What is the best way to join a cornice mid run? Should I just cut them at 90 degrees and do a join? 45 degrees? Tape or no tape? Base and top coat or just fill it in with cornice cement then topcoat?

    Also, there is a semi circular crack where I think there was a flue from a wood stove going through the ceiling. I scraped it out a bit, and tried to tape it (three pieces, tape doesn't make a circle easily). The tape didn't laminate well so I pulled it off and scraped it back. Turns out that the basecoat filled the crack nicely and looks a treat. Once I topcoat it, it should look fine. But, will it crack again given that it has before and I haven't really added any support?

    Cheers,
    Kris
    Last edited by shiftybugger; 9th Sep 2010 at 11:28 AM. Reason: spelling; add question

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    Just make sure you scratch up the paint work first I really get into it with the point of a sharp chisel sanding it just makes it smoother. You have to give the plaster something to key to. You do need to leave a small amount of mud under the tape. Then trowel up as you would a butt join.

    No tape on the cornice joins the best way is to cut an external on one end and internal on the other so they lock togher and gives a bit more surface to glue up. You must put adhesive on the surfaces of the join. I also run a bit up the wall and the ceiling at the join, so the ends are sitting in a bed of cornice adhesive.

    Skilled plasterers will finish the joins by polishing the cornice adhesive with a bit of water. However you may find you will get a better job if you use cornice adhesive first then top coat over and sand. The same applies to external mitres. If you cut the cornice well and put it up accurately you really only need to wipe the cornice adhesive into the internal mitres and sponge off. You will need to cut back the excess on the top and bottom to get a nice square finish.

    Don't forget to butter up the mitres with cornice adhesive as i have explained with the joins.

    As for the flue hole, well it is less likely to crack again if it is taped than not. Will it crack? that is anybodies guess really, My tip is that it will eventually. Again really gouge out some deep scratches over the area to help the tape stick.



    Cheers Rod
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    Thanks again Rod.

    I've been using 80 grit on the paint so it is ripping it up fairly well. I think that I just don't leave enough mud under there. I will definitely try a chisel with any future ones though.

    I saw a crack repair kit at Bunnings today that looked interesting. It is a little plate that you can slip through the crack, pull flat, then screw. Seems a good substitute for backblocking if you can't get behind it. I'm considering it...

    Cheers,
    Kris

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftybugger View Post

    I saw a crack repair kit at Bunnings today that looked interesting. It is a little plate that you can slip through the crack, pull flat, then screw. Seems a good substitute for backblocking if you can't get behind it. I'm considering it...

    Cheers,
    Kris
    Interesting, I haven't seen that one it seems like a goo idea if the joints haven't already been back blocked. I can see how something like that would work ok. I will have a look next time I am in Bunnings.

    There is always something new to consider.

    Cheers Rod
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    The more I do, the more I realise that I don't know...

    It seems that the recommendation is always finish your stopping (including sanded top coat) before putting up the cornice. I can understand this in the normal plaster application, but my situation is a bit different.

    The bottom of my false beam, and hence and external angle bead, only sits down about 200mm below the cornice. The beam is about 6.5m long and isn't as straight as I would have liked so the bead (which is straight) sits out from the beam in places. So, I want to trowel the external out as far as I can, preferrably right up to the ceiling under the cornice. This will mean that the cornice will be sitting on top coat for its whole length, rather than just on joins as it it usually would. Will cornice adhisive anchor to top coat fine for the whole length, or should I do base coat, then cornice, then topcoat to the bottom of the cornice?

    I have a section of wall to which the old wall butted up. Now that the wall is removed, I have a 100mm unpainted (and dinged up, thanks to my wrecking bar dealing with 4 inch nails in hardwood) section, with a slight plaster build up on either side from the internal corners that were there. I have scraped back the plaster and paint on both sides, leaving me with a 200+mm scar to mend. I have patched holes and imperfections with cornice cement, leaving me with raw plasterboard and some cornice cement. I now intend to use top coat and a 250mm curved knife to make a wide, shallow 'bump' over the scar, let it dry, then trowel out flat about 360 either side, then sand.

    Is that course of action ok? Should I do a base coat first (or do the 'bump' in base coat) or is top coat fine straight on the raw plasterboard?

    Re the 3 coat system: Am I inviting trouble if I only do a taping coat followed by topcoat on butt joints? I am trying to avoid having them sit too proud.

    What is the max thickness for top coat? I have a couple of places where I'd rather just top coat now rather than apply yet more base coat, but the top coat would end up being 3-5mm thick...

    Cheers,
    Kris

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftybugger View Post
    The more I do, the more I realise that I don't know...

    It seems that the recommendation is always finish your stopping (including sanded top coat) before putting up the cornice. I can understand this in the normal plaster application, but my situation is a bit different.

    The bottom of my false beam, and hence and external angle bead, only sits down about 200mm below the cornice. The beam is about 6.5m long and isn't as straight as I would have liked so the bead (which is straight) sits out from the beam in places. So, I want to trowel the external out as far as I can, preferrably right up to the ceiling under the cornice. This will mean that the cornice will be sitting on top coat for its whole length, rather than just on joins as it it usually would. Will cornice adhisive anchor to top coat fine for the whole length, or should I do base coat, then cornice, then topcoat to the bottom of the cornice?
    Yes it is better to cornice to the basecoat in this case. You should trowell the external the full 200mm. Just this week I did a beam in a friends house with a 20mm bow in it this was 600mm from the ceiling. I set the externals up straight then flicked a chaulk line on the ceiling and floated the entire 600mm out to the line on both sides.

    I have a section of wall to which the old wall butted up. Now that the wall is removed, I have a 100mm unpainted (and dinged up, thanks to my wrecking bar dealing with 4 inch nails in hardwood) section, with a slight plaster build up on either side from the internal corners that were there. I have scraped back the plaster and paint on both sides, leaving me with a 200+mm scar to mend. I have patched holes and imperfections with cornice cement, leaving me with raw plasterboard and some cornice cement. I now intend to use top coat and a 250mm curved knife to make a wide, shallow 'bump' over the scar, let it dry, then trowel out flat about 360 either side, then sand.

    Is that course of action ok? Should I do a base coat first (or do the 'bump' in base coat) or is top coat fine straight on the raw plasterboard?
    Any "filling" should be done in basecoat then scraped back. Personally I would throw any curved trowels in the bin and just use a flat trowel or joint knife. I used curved trowels for years, but I see huge problems created by those who don't know how to use them properly. Pre-filling and leveling out of a butt joint BEFORE taping will give you a much better finish.

    Re the 3 coat system: Am I inviting trouble if I only do a taping coat followed by topcoat on butt joints? I am trying to avoid having them sit too proud.

    What is the max thickness for top coat? I have a couple of places where I'd rather just top coat now rather than apply yet more base coat, but the top coat would end up being 3-5mm thick...
    Top coat shrinks and should only be applied in a thin coat. Yes you are inviting trouble if you are only planning on 2 coats. Search the threads here on butt joins and you will see how to get them flat.

    You can use the top coat as a 2nd coat and then again for a 3rd and final coat. The important thing in a butt joint is to trowel wider away from the center. Don't pile more plaster over the center of the join.

    Cheers Rod
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    Hi Rod,

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Yes it is better to cornice to the basecoat in this case. You should trowell the external the full 200mm. Just this week I did a beam in a friends house with a 20mm bow in it this was 600mm from the ceiling. I set the externals up straight then flicked a chaulk line on the ceiling and floated the entire 600mm out to the line on both sides.
    Thanks, I hadn't thought about a chalk line on the ceiling...

    Any "filling" should be done in basecoat then scraped back. Personally I would throw any curved trowels in the bin and just use a flat trowel or joint knife. I used curved trowels for years, but I see huge problems created by those who don't know how to use them properly. Pre-filling and leveling out of a butt joint BEFORE taping will give you a much better finish.
    I think I should have described this one a bit better. This is like the top part of the letter 'T', the bottom leg is the wall that was removed. There is actually no join here at all, the old wall butted up to this one and the plaster on this wall is contiguous. Well, there is a small horizontal recessed joint halfway up. I'd just straight up paint it if not for the dings that I left behind and the plaster from the internals that used to be there. Does that change things, or still go base coat first?

    Thanks again,
    Kris

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    Usually I would go with the basecoat first. But a couple of coats with top coat will do the job. But I fail to see the advatage of using just the top coat, as you have to wait longer for it to dry between coats.

    Cheers Rod
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    I too am removing a (non-load bearing) wall. See attached rough drawing

    Thanks to the great info posted by rod and others on this thread i have a good idea of how to fll the hole left by the wall removal, but with the wall removed, i will have a room that is quite large. (12.8 x 7.5 m). This area was previously broken up with internal walls and square arches. It will now have some free standing walls (not connected by square arches), but these will not break up the ceiling area into two different segments.

    Will I need to add some sort of expansion joint for a ceiling area this large ? If so, how do i go about it, or would It be best left to a proffessional?

    Or the would the answer be to add a square arch or bulkhead between the fee standing walls to break the ceiling into two seperate areas?

    Thanks
    Alan
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ceiling-plan.jpg  
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    Quote Originally Posted by whyme112299 View Post
    Or the would the answer be to add a square arch or bulkhead between the fee standing walls to break the ceiling into two seperate areas?

    Thanks
    Alan
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    Thanks again for the info Rod

    Would a slim bulkhead similar to the attached image do the job do you think?

    Alan
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails bulkhead1.jpg  
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    Yep perfect. Not to big is best. Bottom right hand corner photos on the front page of my web site are photos of the bulkheads in my place. Check out the depth of those. Only 120mm they look smart, well IMO LOL.

    Cheers Rod
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    Thanks rod,

    at the risk of becoming anoying, I have yet another question

    my wife likes the look of a bulkhead without cornice (square set i think you would call it), but the bulkhead has to connect to a wall that is an extension of an existing wall that has cornice on it at one side, and a new (free standing) wall at the other end. This new free standing wall can either have cornice or square set.

    What would be the best way to join a square set bulkhead to a wall that has cornice ?

    Is it possible, and would it look strange ?

    or would I be better off taking the cornice off the entire length of the existing wall (making the entire wall square set) and end the cornice in a corner? Would that look strange, having one wall square set and the rest in the family room with cornice?
    I have attached a photo and plans of what I am trying to achieve.

    Thanks
    Alan
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ceiling-plan2.jpg   kitchen-010.jpg  
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    Nice art work.

    Personally I would run the cornice around the bulkhead. It really has to continue or the bulkhead will look, well, added!!

    Cheers Rod
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