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    Default Painting gyprock before flushing?

    I just had a doorway blocked off with gyprock, not sure it matters but the surrounding wall is plaster over brick. The carpentry business who did it doesnt have a gyprock flusher atm and I dont know how long until they do. one side is the kitchen and close to the cooking area, so I dont want the gyprock absorbing any grease splatters. Can I put a coat of water based primer on it in the mean time? I just want to make sure it wont interfere/cause issues when I eventually get someone out to do the flushing.

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    How close to the cooktop - and is it on the same wall?

    Also, how close to the sink?

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    its on the same wall as the cooktop about 50cm to the right of it. the sink is on the other wall, but the dishwasher is partly in front of the gyprock now.

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    If it was me, I would just cover it with something temporary- because even if you seal it, you might still get grease splashes - and primer/sealer isn’t really washable.

    For example put a plasterboard off cut behind the dishwasher to cover the wall area - standing it on the floor. Or an oblong of building wrap pinned to the top of the wall where the holes won’t be noticed and taped to the floor. Even a piece of fabric - but make sure it isn’t a fire hazard!

    Or just cook carefully - and don’t stir fry!

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    I didnt even think of covering it. I have some old thin ply door panels in the garage that should cover most of it. I'll just have to figure out how to keep them in place for now against the wall.

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    Do you still have the old door?

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    I do but there isnt room behind the dishwasher to get it in there, I could slide an old door panel in since its only about 3mm.

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    do you think I should put a few screws through the ply into the gyprock to hold the ply up?

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    Depends.

    Any screw holes will need to be patched by the plasterer. And with any glancing light along the wall you might see the patch.

    But when whole walls are plastered, extra blocks are used to hold the plaster sheet - so filling screw holes is part of the process anyway - well it is in Vic. But it tends to be above/below eye level.

    I would probably try to avoid it though.

    Can’t you just rest the plywood on the floor and keep it in place with the dishwasher?

    Or just cook carefully. I don’t think you’ll do any damage at all if it’s just a couple of weeks.

    How long before the plasterer can get there?

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    Its unknown how long until I get a plasterer. Its so hard to get people over here right now, but the carpentry business have been trying to hire a flusher but dont have anyone right now. Honestly, it could take a while just based on how busy every single tradie seems to be at the moment. I'll try to wedge the panel in there and I guess I could put a couple of screws in the wall and string a piece of wire over it at the top if I need to, the dishwasher only covers it a bit on one edge.

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    What is a ‘flusher’.
    WA vernacular?
    You’re talking about someone to set the joints, right?

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    Any good carpenter should be able to fix off gyprock, and do the jointing as well, especially in a small area such as yours, it is not rocket science, just as carpenters should also be able to do painting and tiling as well.

    I know so many chippies who are too lazy to learn other trades, so they don't need to rely on getting other tradies to finish off their jobs.

    As soon as i finished my apprenticeship i went out on my own and i learned to do my own gyprock work, tiling, painting, some brick laying, and concreting.

    I then spent 1 year working with a kitchen joinery shop learning how to build kitchens, then i set one up for myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    What is a ‘flusher’.
    WA vernacular?
    You’re talking about someone to set the joints, right?
    Its just the person who's going to make it flush with the rest of the wall (brick with white set plaster). not sure if its a plasterer or gyprocker since mostly our walls are plaster over here so it would be a pretty small job for a typical plasterer to do.

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    Maybe your carpenter has a concern integrating plasterboard with the brickwork and would rather walk away from it! It may be a problem down the track.
    Rod made a comment as such here if it helps. #5

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    thanks for the link. I knew the carpenter was only going to frame it and put gyprock up when I booked it, but yep, I think it was outside his comfort zone anyway. afaik (which isnt much) it's a bit more involved to blend it into plastered brick so I decided to go ahead anyway since Ive been trying for months just to get this far with it.

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    Sorry guys but if the carpenter was not employed to do the finishing off, then i can understand that, but any good solid plasterer or gyprock finisher (either of them) should be able to top coat and finish the gyprock flush with rendered or solid plastered brick wall, they are taught this in trade school, and even i can do it, and i was never taught, i just learned my skills by watching proper tradies doing it.

    Your builder or carpenter should never have left you in the lurch by not arranging for someone to finish the job after the carpenter finished his work, very poor form in my opinion.

    Sadly the tradies these days are not worth a pinch of salt, there is too much work going on for them to be shown how to do their work properly, not like back in the 70's and 80's.

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    Its crazy over here trying to get tradies right now, Ive had a few people come out and then crickets, so I kind of understand them not being able to line someone up to finish it right away. I tried to get a plasterer to plaster an area in the lounge from an old air conditioner being removed, never happened. As long as it gets done sooner or later I'll deal with it, it's been frustrating waiting on different things but I can be pretty patient too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renolvr View Post
    Its crazy over here trying to get tradies right now, Ive had a few people come out and then crickets, so I kind of understand them not being able to line someone up to finish it right away. I tried to get a plasterer to plaster an area in the lounge from an old air conditioner being removed, never happened. As long as it gets done sooner or later I'll deal with it, it's been frustrating waiting on different things but I can be pretty patient too.
    Yeah it is the same all over, here in Tassie you can't get any tradie at all to to smaller jobs, when you can you will pay well over $100 p/h just for a carpenter, sparkies and plumbers get twice that.

    I also understand that Western Australia has very different building codes to the rest of Australia, my sister built a few houses over in Perth a few years ago, and she told me all about it.

    This is why i have been trying to get carpenters, especially the young ones, to learn other trades so that if they get a job requiring multi trades, they can do it themselves.

    I am probably going to rile some people up a bit, but a gyprock fixing is the easiest trade you can learn, and i still don't get why it needs to be done as an apprenticeship for 4 years, i think a young bloke should be able to spend 1 year with a qualified gyprocker/plasterer as a trainee to learn the ropes, and then gain a certificate after that.

    Painting is also another trade that should not require a 4 year apprenticeship either, like how difficult can it be, i think a 1 year traineeship is all that is required, plus a requirement do a theory coarse with one of the big paint companies such as Dulux or Taubmans.

    Tiling is also an easy trade to master, but it is a dirty job, and i don't blame anyone for not wanting to be a tiler, but unfortunately most of the tilers that i know are not qualified, and most of them are hopeless, but so too are the rel qualified tilers.

    I can't even get my own plumber to do my new bathroom for me, if i could i would do the plumbing myself, i know what needs to be done, and i know how to do it, but i am not a licensed plumber so i am not allowed to do it.

    Anyway, getting off topic here, but i hope the OP sorts it all out soon.

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    Most carpenters I have employed can't plaster if their life depended on it. They screw the sheets on the studs and that's it. Then the plasterer comes and complains that the wall is not straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Most carpenters I have employed can't plaster if their life depended on it. They screw the sheets on the studs and that's it. Then the plasterer comes and complains that the wall is not straight.
    LOL, a plasterer who complains about a wall not being straight, never heard that one before, their job is so simple, measure wall, cut the sheet, apply blobs of stud glue, place sheet in position, shoot screws/nails into studs.

    Many years ago they divided plastering up in 2 trades, you either fix sheets or your a finisher, but some do both, like i did, but i always hated finishing and sanding.

    In USA and Britain the gyprock fixers do not glue the sheets, they only screw/nail them on, even on the ceilings.

    Here is a video of a Finisher with all of his gadgets to get the job done (this is a pommy video)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTtClyuKooY

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    Nice, never seen those gadgets.

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    Very fast! Do they always run sheets vertically rather than horizontal here in Aus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldRenovator View Post
    Very fast! Do they always run sheets vertically rather than horizontal here in Aus?
    Yes it is very fast, but it is very messy as well, and you can lose a lot of mud (the poms obviously call it quick sand) by using those machines, for me i always did it the old fashioned way.

    As far as sheeting the walls in that video, i always thought that the poms ran their sheets horizontally like we do here in Australia, at least on walls that are up to 2700 high, maybe they have changed the way they do it, not really sure.

    If the walls are low enough to require only 2 rows of sheets, then horizontal sheeting is the way to go as far as fixing the sheets, and it requires less jointing than laying the sheets vertically.

    If the walls are over 2.7m high then they will require more than 2 rows of sheets, and would also require another horizontal joint that needs to be jointed.

    With walls over 2700 vertical sheeting makes a lot of sense because they are easier to fix off with one or 2 workers standing them up on thin packers on the floor, and if i recall, there is also less jointing required as well, especially if you set your stud walls out to use the 1350 wide sheets where possible (i always vertically sheeted walls over 2650 high)

    Also, when it comes to working out your sheet sizes and widths for horizontal fixing, you need to allow for cutting off the 50mm wide tapered edge from the bottom of the lower sheets so the skirting boards can be nailed flat (many sheet fixers leave the tapered edge on so the skirtings tilt over when they are nailed in place)

    Also take into account whether the wall/ceiling junctions will have cornice or be square set, if using 55mm or wider cornice then the tapered edge (or part of it) can stay around the top of the sheet, but if square setting the junctions, then you must allow for the 50mm tapered edge to be cut off completely.

    In my 2 year old townhouse the plasterers left the tapered edges on the bottom of the wall sheets, and all of the 65mm tas oak skirtings were tilted inwards at the bottom, and when i removed them to replace them with 75mm painted MDF skirtings i had to stick 3mm packers along the bottom edge of those sheets so my new skirtings would not tilt inwards when i fixed them off.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fault-047.jpg  

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    You make some excellent points re not having to trim off recessed edges or pack out narrow skirting And probably easier to fix them too standing on their end. Have never attempted square set so recess at the top has not been an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldRenovator View Post
    You make some excellent points re not having to trim off recessed edges or pack out narrow skirting And probably easier to fix them too standing on their end. Have never attempted square set so recess at the top has not been an issue.
    It defies logic to me when gyprock fixers fix off the bottom sheets without cutting off the tapered edge, for most it would simply be to avoid the extra 30 seconds of time that it takes, and a lot of plain laziness, and having the attitude that the carpenter can fix it when fixing off the skirtings.

    You also can't square set around a wall/ceiling junction properly when one edge of a sheet still has the taper left on it.

    If standing the sheets vertically then you don't need to trim off any tapered edges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    It defies logic to me when gyprock fixers fix off the bottom sheets without cutting off the tapered edge
    It may mean an extra join to do so. I just scrape the taper with excess basecoat for a flush finish. Doesn't need to be the entire length as long as it is enough to support the skirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    It may mean an extra join to do so. I just scrape the taper with excess basecoat for a flush finish. Doesn't need to be the entire length as long as it is enough to support the skirt.
    yep i understand what you r saying as far as placing a bit of base coat on the bottom taper to stop the skirting from tilting, but the same can't be said about square setting the wall/ceiling junction if the top sheet was to have the taper left on that as well.

    You would need to run the base coat around the entire perimeter of the top tapered edge and have it set first before applying the tape and top coat (as in that video)

    If you had a wall that was 2400 high and you used 1200 wide sheets, you will have the taper at the top and bottom, great if using cornice, and you skim some base coat along the bottom taper for the skirting, if you are square setting the top, then using a 1350 sheet on the bottom with the taper cut off, and a 1200 sheet at the top with 100 cut off the top to me is an easier way to do it, the slight cost difference of the 1350 sheets is minimal in the overall scheme of things.

    Like i said before, you need to weigh up certain factors when deciding on what size/width sheets you will order to avoid any extra work that can be avoided, but certainly for me, any walls over 2650 i would definitely lay vertically to avoid having to tape and finish a second horizontal joint, and avoid having to cut off or fill any tapered joints at the top or bottom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    yep i understand what you r saying as far as placing a bit of base coat on the bottom taper to stop the skirting from tilting, but the same can't be said about square setting the wall/ceiling junction if the top sheet was to have the taper left on that as well.

    You would need to run the base coat around the entire perimeter of the top tapered edge and have it set first before applying the tape and top coat (as in that video)
    Without referencing the video I do not see an issue. I have square set the tapered board without any issues with the tape, no need to basecoat set before applying tape, just tape into the taper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Without referencing the video I do not see an issue. I have square set the tapered board without any issues with the tape, no need to basecoat set before applying tape, just tape into the taper.
    Each to their own i guess, that is obviously the difference between you and me, all i can say is that there is no way that i personally would ever square set tape into a tapered edge around the ceiling, especially when i use a 50mm internal corner setting tool.

    For me, i will always cut the tapered edge off the top of a sheet when square setting, and i will always cut the taper off the bottom, and i never once had a scenario where cutting or not cutting the tapered edges off has affected how many horizontal joints i have, if i work it out and i have a scenario where i need more than 2 rows of sheets, i will sheet vertically, just may need to throw in a few extra noggins or studs here and there, if it is a new frame up job, i will set the studs out to suit 1200 or 1350 wide sheets.

    Cheers

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    If you want to do a square set well, use profiles, nice straight sharp lines.

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    When I did square set, we had never done it before so just filled the taper. We used either tape with a metal spine or the thick plastic profiles.

    I believe you can buy plaster with one long non-tapered edge - but we just got the regular stuff.

    With raked ceilings, there were a few cuts to make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    It defies logic to me when gyprock fixers fix off the bottom sheets without cutting off the tapered edge, for most it would simply be to avoid the extra 30 seconds of time that it takes, and a lot of plain laziness, and having the attitude that the carpenter can fix it when fixing off the skirtings.

    You also can't square set around a wall/ceiling junction properly when one edge of a sheet still has the taper left on it.

    If standing the sheets vertically then you don't need to trim off any tapered edges.
    Seriously? If the skirting is too small to cover the rebate, just fill it in. If you have a 2700 ceiling height, cutting off a rebate means you would need an extra join and be buying board for a 3m ceiling height. If it was 2400 then you would need a 1350 sheet.

    Rebates on square set are never a problem. If you have a plasterer who thinks it is, get a new plasterer.

    As for you comments about plastering being a simple trade to learn, yes if all you are doing is straight forward humpies. There is a hell of a lot more to plastering than setting joins and internals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joynz View Post
    When I did square set, we had never done it before so just filled the taper. We used either tape with a metal spine or the thick plastic profiles.

    I believe you can buy plaster with one long non-tapered edge - but we just got the regular stuff.

    With raked ceilings, there were a few cuts to make.
    Special orders Joynz. Very rarely done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    If you want to do a square set well, use profiles, nice straight sharp lines.
    Way too much expense and really not really practical as it would add a lot more joins. Learning how to set square set properly is a much better option.
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    any walls over 2650 i would definitely lay vertically to avoid having to tape and finish a second horizontal joint, and avoid having to cut off or fill any tapered joints at the top or bottom.
    WOW!! what can I say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Way too much expense and really not really practical as it would add a lot more joins. Learning how to set square set properly is a much better option.
    I wouldn't want to argue this with you Rod as you are a professional and achieve top work. But for me I don't find using internal profiles for square set much extra work and the cost is negligible. For my eye I love the dead straight crisp line it gives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    Yes it is very fast, but it is very messy as well, and you can lose a lot of mud (the poms obviously call it quick sand) by using those machines, for me i always did it the old fashioned way.
    QuickSand is the trade name for plaster joint cement sold by Gyproc in the UK (quick to sand). Colloquially; mortar, concrete and plaster are referred to as “mud”.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Dyson View Post
    Seriously? If the skirting is too small to cover the rebate, just fill it in. If you have a 2700 ceiling height, cutting off a rebate means you would need an extra join and be buying board for a 3m ceiling height. If it was 2400 then you would need a 1350 sheet.
    Rebates on square set are never a problem. If you have a plasterer who thinks it is, get a new plasterer.
    As for you comments about plastering being a simple trade to learn, yes if all you are doing is straight forward humpies. There is a hell of a lot more to plastering than setting joins and internals.
    Rod, you are not the only member of this forum, you get replies from all sorts of people, both qualified and not, and everyone has differing opinions about how they go about doing things, and i was expressing my opinions, if you or the other members don't like it then that's your problem, do it a different way, but i stand by everything i said.

    Gyprock sheeting/plastering is not rocket science, many plasters back in my day started off as a labour, and after 6 months they put the tools on and went out on their own, most of them worked for me at some time, and most of them turned out to be better than some of the so called qualified plasterers, and the hardest part of that trade would be working out your sheet quantities, fixing sheets is something a kid can do.

    Also, in that comment about plastering being an easy trade to learn, i was not referring to jointing or finishing work, as i mentioned previously, that is now treated as a separate trade in some states, and it is a lot more complex to learn than just hanging sheets.

    As far as the tapered edges go, you do it your way, and i do it mine, if i was going to build any walls 2600 or higher, i would set the studs out to hang 1200 or 1350 sheets vertically to avoid tapers on the top and bottom, it's not an issue at the end of the day, and if the walls were existing already, a few noggins and back blocks between the studs where the joints will be is all that you need to do, or toss in a new stud if you prefer.

    As far as narrow skirtings go, if you had a full tapered edge (50mm) on the bottom of the wall, and you are using a narrow skirting (let's say 42mm) then why would you bother going around stopping up and sanding the bottom taper for, if using tiles on the floor, you lay your tiles to the gyprock, and fix the skirting over the top of the tile (the proper way) so the skirting should just cover the top edge of the taper (a few mm below won't hurt) and if using carpet on on the floor, then nail the skirting off level with the top edge of the taper, the carpet and smooth edge will cover the gap under it.

    Me personally, i would never in a million years use any skirting under 65mm wide, unless a client wanted it used, and i never use any skirting over 13mm thick either, but that is just my preference, narrow and/or thick shirtings are gay and look stupid in my opinion.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Without referencing the video I do not see an issue. I have square set the tapered board without any issues with the tape, no need to basecoat set before applying tape, just tape into the taper.
    Same here, I have never had any issues square setting the joins with the recess on one sheet, I prefer if it has the recess as it allows basecoat to get behind the tape creating a stronger join.

    Same for skirtings, I put a thin timber packer (takes about 20 seconds to make them on the table saw) tacked along the bottom of the sheets before installing skirting, this keeps everything perfectly square..
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    Just thought I'd post an update. The carpenter put me in touch with a gyprocker they've used and I've booked him to finish it off. He did also mention the potential issue with cracking when joining gyprock to plastered brick as discussed in the link Phild01 posted. The other option was to gyprock over the section of wall on top of what is there now, but that would have caused issues with the decorative plaster cornice so I'm just going to get it flushed with the wall and see how it goes.

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    Since this thread is wandering into plastering philosophy, here's my two bob's worth.
    I blew up my back lifting sheets back in June, and had two subsequent spinal operations to finally relieve the eyewatering pain. As a consequence I had to use plastering contractors to plaster two walls and finish it all off. Observations which give me pause to reflect:
    1. They were shocked that anyone would use cornices (this was a reno in a house full of cornices, so that's a no-brainer);
    2. No cutting off the bottom taper on horizontally laid sheets;
    3. Sheets laid directly on the floor i.e. no gap at the bottom;
    4. Sticky mesh for joints throughout.
    Hmmmm .... no wonder they were so bloody quick. We will see.

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    Were they cheap? Qualified?

    Did you get a chance to ask why no gap at floor level?

    Don’t let Rod hear you mention sticky mesh!

    Thankfully they weren’t doing ceilings!

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    I do question the need for a gap at the bottom being a throwback to the general use of unseasoned framing when plasterboard first appeared.

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    Maybe the frame settles a little as gaps close up, especially with a tiled roof?

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    I have always done because I was told to do so back in the day. But please chip in people, is a wall sheet to floor gap only required when applying to unseasoned wall framing? My frames are 1960s oregon, so well seasoned by now ..... a bit like me really.

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    I doubt you will have a problem with what you say. The installation guidelines still maintain a gap requirement though.

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    I would follow the installation guide no matter how seasoned the timber. And it gives you 10mm in case of a minor flood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renolvr View Post
    Just thought I'd post an update. The carpenter put me in touch with a gyprocker they've used and I've booked him to finish it off. He did also mention the potential issue with cracking when joining gyprock to plastered brick as discussed in the link Phild01 posted. The other option was to gyprock over the section of wall on top of what is there now, but that would have caused issues with the decorative plaster cornice so I'm just going to get it flushed with the wall and see how it goes.
    It would be good to see a photo of the section where the new gyprock joins the plastered brick wall just to see how well the tradie finished it off ready for the gyprock finisher to complete the job, and to also see how good the join is between both finishes.

    I had a read of what Rod had to say in his post in the following thread https://www.renovateforum.com/f208/h...50/#post742517 and i agree there are several factors that may hinder the finished surface and possible cracking in the future, one of them would be the structural integrity of the existing brick wall, or any possible movement in the timber framework used by the carpenter, so i would be checking the old wall around the gyprock area for any existing cracks, and if there seems to be no cracking then this is a good sign to start off with, however, regardless of this and all other factors, if you are wanting a flush finish that looks like the gyprock was always there and part of the old wall, then you need to treat it just like a normal butt joint in 2 sheets of gyprock, and hope for the best, because i don't think that you have any other choices anyway.

    In the many cases where i have done similar work to this in older homes, there would often be gaps between the edges of the plastered brick wall and the gyprock sheet, so my method of jointing in a case like this would be as follows.

    1 - Etch the existing painted plaster coating on the brick wall with coarse glass paper about 200 to 300mm out from the join with the gyprock, this will give the bedding cement something to bind to.
    2 - I would then trim the edges of the gyprock sheet and the plastered wall on an angle so there is a V shape gap down the join, then clean it out free of any loose debris and dust.
    3 - I would then mix up some cornice cement and pack it into the joint and flush it off with my knife, and let that dry, if the gap is fairly wide and/or deep, the cornice cement will probably shrink and suck into the joint slightly while it cures, but this step really depends on how tight the gyprock has been fixed against the old plaster wall, if it is a neat joint with minimal gaps you can just trim out the V in the joint and go straight to step 4.
    4 - I would then apply a thin narrow skim coat of cornice cement over the join and apply a strip of paper tape over the centre of the join, trowel it out, and let that dry.
    5 - To finish off, i would come back and apply another skim coat of cornice cement over the top, extending outwards from the join, then i would return to skim coat my finishing mud over the cornice cement and sand when dry.

    The reason why i use cornice cement for base/ skim coats is because it is hard, and for it's adhesion properties, it will stick to almost any surface, except paint, unless you etch the paint first, or better still try to sand it all off before applying any skim coats, especially if it is enamel paint.

    I always use cornice cement for bedding in my jointing tape on tapered joints, as well as normal butt joints, and internal joints, and i always V-joint the edges of the sheets that form a butt joint or internal corner, many plasterers don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joynz View Post
    Did you get a chance to ask why no gap at floor level?
    Don’t let Rod hear you mention sticky mesh!
    I always place 5 to 10mm packers on the floor to sit the sheets on, never really knew why they specified this, i just imagined they do it in case there was a shallow water spillage so the gyprock doesn't get wet.

    The same as i never fix off skirting sitting on the floor where carper is used, i always sit them on 6 to 8mm packers, the carpet layer would nail off his smooth edges, and tack the carpet over that and the carpet would fill the gap under the skirting, i do this mainly for any potential water spillage to prevent the bottom of the skirting from taking in moisture.

    I also never use timber skirtings in any wet room, for very obvious reasons, i always use a 70 to 100mm wide tile instead, but most builder still use timber.

    Also, what is so bad about sticky gauze, i sometimes use it on tapered edge joints and never had an issue with it, but i won't use it on butt joints.

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    Without knowing the application I would probably not try to achieve a 'flush' fínish but rather use a deliberate straight profile edge to the plasterboard and render up to it .

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