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Concrete 'kerb' to waterproof garage?

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  1. #1
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Default Concrete 'kerb' to waterproof garage?

    After starting on plans to insulate and line my steel garage, Ive started on sealing some gaps with expanding foam, taping up sheet joins from the inside, sealing up a louvre window that is to be covered over, replacing leaking screws and rivets and so on.
    But my biggest hassle is going to be water penetration around the edges where the wall sheets meet the slab, especially since I found water puddling in a rear corner during heavy rain once I had moved cabinets out from the wall to start sealing up joints.
    The garage is a fairly typical late 60s steel single garage - brick fascia, tilt door, angle iron uprights supporting angle iron trusses, linked together with hardwood (or angle iron on one wall) then roofed with corrugated iron and clad with vertical steel sheets. It appears to have had the uprights concreted individually into the ground, with the (not very smooth and now badly cracked) slab poured afterwards, using the wall sheets as formwork. Unfortunately it was built with the slab virtually at ground level, and the side framed with angle iron also forms the boundary with the neighbour's block. Their house is very slightly higher than ours, so chances are their soil level against our garage may even be slightly above the height of the garage slab.
    I'm trying to figure out a viable and practical method of stopping water coming in by seeping up under the edges of the wall sheets where they overlap the slab. One idea I've been kicking around is to work my way around the garage, moving things to make room (have too much in there to allow me to clear it all out even temporarily to do the whole lot in one go) and pour concrete behind a bit of low formwork to form a 'kerb' up to the lowest crossbeam but shallow enough to allow the internal wall lining to overlap it. This would make for a kerb of maybe 5-6 cms high by 5 cm wide around the edge of the slab. Obviously for it to work it would have to be both watertight and securely bonded to the existing concrete, which is not in the best condition and almost certainly doesn't have a moisture barrier underneath the slab. Is this even a viable plan? Drilling into the existing slab where the new concrete would go is near impossible as it is below a low crossbeam. What sort of materials would I need to use, what sort of preparation would I need to do to the existing surface for it to bond properly, or is there another option I haven't considered that would work better?

    This is the garage in question:


    ...and this is looking at the bottom of the wall where it meets the slab - this wall is the one forming the property boundary.

  2. #2
    Slow but rough Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    I reckon your best bet to stop water getting in there is by using drainage. Other people may have a better idea thou

  3. #3
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    Forget your plan, it will never work.
    You need to raise the bridge(shed slab) or lower the river(yard)
    Nothing else will work.

  4. #4
    ℱᎾℛUℳ ℂℒᎾᏇℕ PlatypusGardens's Avatar
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    Yeh.....
    Accident free since yesterday



  5. #5
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclic View Post
    Forget your plan, it will never work.
    You need to raise the bridge(shed slab) or lower the river(yard)
    Nothing else will work.
    I had a feeling that might be the case, but I can't do anything about the ground level (or add drainage) on that side as the other side of the wall is the neighbour's yard.
    I was hoping that putting a raised kerb around the edges might be the equivalent of raising the slab. Potentially I could raise the slab by pouring concrete on top of the existing slab which would also help smooth and level the floor, but I'm not sure a layer of concrete 50-60mm thick would survive without breaking up, and there's not enough headroom inside to raise the slab any further.

  6. #6
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    Will you ever drive a car on it? If not, 50-60mm with mesh will be fine (it will likely crack along existing expansion joints & cracks though).
    I was advised to go to 75mm minimum with mesh to do a slab-on-slab in my old garage that floods because of the land level, and has cars parked in it, but they reckoned 50mm minimum if it was only for storage & foot traffic.

    I've seen the contractors pulling out council footpaths that have been lifted by tree roots, to replace them, are most are only about 60mm maximum.
    They didn't crack in over 40 years of thermal cycling & foot traffic.

  7. #7
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    There'll never be a car parked on it, only a couple of motorbikes. If I was to pour a raised slab it would have to be in sections though, as i can't clear everything out. So would most likely end up with a lot of expansion joints and cracks, which I could live with as long as it doesn't break up completely since the finish would still be better than the lumpy and uneven slab that's there at the moment.

  8. #8
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    Run a strip drain around the external perimeter.

    Tools

  9. #9
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tools View Post
    Run a strip drain around the external perimeter.

    Tools
    Unfortunately not possible as on one side the external perimeter is next door's yard, and at the rear there's a 4" gap to another shed, so access for a drain is not available.

  10. #10
    3K Club Member johnc's Avatar
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    If its piece meal then have you thought of concrete pavers, the 600mm square type, you will need to cut some to fit on two walls but you will get your height and it will be tidier than repeated pouring of "patches"

  11. #11
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Default Concrete kerb to waterproof garage? (UPDATE)

    Have posted this here as I am unable to bump the original thread, as it is over 12 months since any posts (and since I was able to find the time to actually get any more work done! )

    I have since poured a small "kerb" of construction grout about 5cm wide and high around the inside walls of the garage currently accessible, as the garage cannot be emptied out to make room to do it all at once. This has been in place for about a year, with the only water penetration into the garage coming from the next section of wall past the current end of the kerb. I have since waterproofed from the floor up over the kerb to the wall sheets, and am just starting to raise the floor inside the garage by laying 200x200x40mm concrete pavers in a mortar bed, which will bring the level up 60-70mm from the current uneven floor level. This will be happening in sections of around 4 square metres at a time since I can't empty the garage out completely.
    Once I have the second section done I should know whether this will be 100% successful as it will cover the section of wall where the main water entry occurs during heavy rain.
    Last edited by phild01; 17th Jan 2018 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Moved - thread re-opened

  12. #12
    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorganGT View Post
    Have posted this here as I am unable to bump the original thread
    moved

  13. #13
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Belated update:

    First section of pavers are sealed, laid on a mortar bed and grouted. I have used cheap Bunnings concrete pavers installed upside down to achieve a flatter surface as they are chamfered around the top sides. They were laid using 5mm tile spacers rather than butted up against each other as they are designed to be used, to allow some 'wiggle room' to adjust them as they are laid to correct any alignment errors. This section was about as far as I could go with the limited room available - now with this section done there is enough 'finished' floor to temporarily move 2 big cabinets back into this corner, which will clear a lot of room to allow for the next section to be done. This is the first time I have laid pavers like this and they are not 100% level and flush from one to the next, but I suspect I am being too critical of myself as they are pretty good, and importantly MUCH more level, even and smooth than the original concrete floor!

    I have also fixed some steel angle to the floor across the door opening to provide an edge for the pavers to butt up against - once I have paved across the whole width of the door opening I will trim the angle down to the height of the pavers then fix another piece of angle to protect the edges of the pavers from chipping as people walk in/out the door.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image1.jpg  

  14. #14
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Further update:
    img_0049.jpg
    More paving done, past the main point where water was seeping in. It rained very heavily today, and not a drop seeped in, and no damp spots appeared in the paving, so I've got the floor level raised enough to do the job, and the waterproofing applied to the slab before the paving appears to be keeping out the moisture. The walls and ceiling in the completed area have been lined with insulation and clad with yellowtongue sheets for the walls (a bit overkill for a wall lining but will allow me to mount shelves and hang tools on the wall) and MDF on the ceiling. The last really hot day we had, I measured 21 degrees surface temperature on the inside of the lined walls, with the unlined walls at 39 degrees, so when the whole job is done it looks like it will be a lot more comfortable inside on hot days.

  15. #15
    Slow but rough Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    Good work Morgan

  16. #16
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    Looks good Morgan. When you have limited options, and it actually works out...... that’s what sorts out the men from the boys. Good and tidy result !

  17. #17
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    New update:

    I've continued the paving down to the front of the garage by running one row of pavers along a string line to be a reference line, to ensure the rows stay straight and level throughout the rest of the floor. I then paved from this line out to the side wall in sections, clearing stuff out of the way to make room, dismantling the shelves that were there and rebuilding them once a suitable paved area was ready, and the wall and ceiling in that section was clad.

    I've made it all the way to the front of the garage down that side, with space for 2 more bays of shelves that will come a bit later - I need that space at the moment to store a few things out of the way to allow the paving to continue.

    Plans from here are to pave a few more rows along the length of the garage until the paved area is wide enough to shift the engines stored on trolleys under my old workbench, so I can move the bench and continue the paving across to the other wall.
    Plans are to weld up a new workbench to replace the old, a bit higher and deeper so the engines won't stick out, and bolted down to the slab, with the paving done afterwards so the bench is fastened to the slab rather than the pavers, which is likely to be more secure. After the other wall and ceiling sections are clad I can install the LED light battens I have, after some experimentation to see how many I need and where they are best placed.


    The front tilt door is going, and I am planning on making a set of bifold doors with 3 panels, set up so i can either open one panel as a pedestrian door, or fold all 3 across to the right side for full width access for getting the motorbike in and out.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0142.jpg   img_0143.jpg   img_0144.jpg  

  18. #18
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    Yay! someone does the same thing as I do with engines. I've made angle-iron frames on wheels that the sump nestles into, so I can move them.
    I can tell you from (multiple occasions) experience you need the bench to be 750mm deep for a Holden V8 to avoid banging your shin on the water pump....

  19. #19
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    The little engine trolleys have a small RHS upright at each corner with the top cut off at an angle, so the sump flange can locate on it. Since most of the motors are Chrysler Slant sixes, the uprights are different lengths on either side so the engine stands more upright (so it won't tip off the trolley). The other motor under there is a Leyland V8 (plus a couple of gearboxes standing on end).

    I've measured up the Slants, and I think I'll need the bench 900mm deep so they won't stick out - and I plan to hang a bit of heavy canvas across the front of the bench to keep sawdust, swarf etc. off the engines and keep it looking a bit neater.

    My favourite bit in the whole garage is the monogrammed toolbox. It helps to have a first name that is the same as a brand of car - a Morgan diecast script boot badge only cost me about $30 as a genuine part, and I use it to tease my boss who has a huge Snap On toolbox that cost about 10 times as much as mine (but is not really built any better) and came monogrammed, but only with a printed sticker!

  20. #20
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    That's a ripper with the toolbox badge. Agree with Snap-On....
    The slant 6s would be hard to handle - my father-in-law has some '30s Chev I6s sideways under benches in his garage, and they're bad enough - yet they are upright.
    I now feel fortunate that Commodore V8s have a "front sump" that nestles nicely into a trolley, with only a short support needed on each rear corner to meet the sump flange.

  21. #21
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    New update: Welded up a solid workbench frame using some steel I've had lying around for years - probably way over engineered, but the steel was free. And it gave me an excuse to buy a nice new fancy MIG/TIG/ARC welder to replace the crappy old ones I have had for years! Insulated and clad the wall, bolted the bench down to the slab and today just finished paving and grouting the area around and under the bench.
    Next step is fitting end panels and top to the bench and tucking all the engines back underneath.
    Because the benchtop is 90 cm deep, there will be room for storage at the back of the bench, so I've bought 2 cheap tool cabinets that have 6 equal depth drawers. Each one will be cut in half and built into a wooden cabinet across the back of the benchtop so there will be 4 sets of 3 drawers across the back of the bench for storage, with a shelf above to store parts boxes for screws, bolts, washers etc, and space to hang tools on the wall.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0202.jpg  

  22. #22
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Benchtop on, with a final skin of melamine and aluminium angle trim around the edges still to come, engines stored away under the bench and toolbox and other bits and pieces moved ready to pave the final section of floor.
    img_0206.jpg
    img_0207.jpg

  23. #23
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    I've finally got all the paving done, all the walls and ceiling clad (apart from the final details at the front once the tilt door is replaced) and just finished putting up and wiring the LED battens.
    I wasn't 100% sure they were going to be bright enough, but now they are all up and connected there's plenty of light to work by, although I may end up adding extras directly over the workbenches.

    Not sure why the pics are sideways, normally I put them up using Tinypic which rotates them automatically if needed, but it looks like that site is shutting down.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0242.jpg   img_0243.jpg  

  24. #24
    Senior Member MorganGT's Avatar
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    Finally removed the old tilt door at the front and replaced it with some repurposed old sliding doors, which will seal draughts and dust out a lot better but still open wide enough to get the motorbike in and out easily.
    Will probably make some security grilles to attach to them to avoid tempting any prowlers to kick the glass in.
    img_0306.jpg

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