What wall plug/anchor should I use?

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  1. #1
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    Default What wall plug/anchor should I use?

    Hi all,

    What would you recommend using to mount a wall hung bathroom vanity (102x49x76) with 20mm stone countertop and sink and my kitchen cabinets (Ikea method)?

    Walls are compressed brick (+ tiles in bathroom). Have some blue plugs just not sure if these would be the best as the bricks are pwetty bad (have had some crumbling using blue plug and 14G screws)wall

  2. #2
    Slow but rough Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    I reckon you'll need something a lot stronger than wall plugs or anchors.
    What does the instructions say?

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    "Use fixing devicessuitable for the walls in your home.For advice on suitable fixing systems,contact your local specialized dealer."

    Bunnings: "yeah try with the blue plugs or chemset"

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    Slow but rough Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    haha, that's pretty useless instructions

    Anyway I read free standing as wall hung lol, so yeah descent wall plugs or chemset should do it.

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    You are right, wall hung is probably better!

    Thought of using dynabolts as well but not sure if good for this kind of brick..

  6. #6
    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    What about Anka screws?

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    The AnkaScrew™ Screw-In Anchor is a totally removable, medium duty, rotation setting, thread forming anchor, ideal for either temporary or permanent anchoring into substrates such as concrete, brick, hollow brick or block. The AnkaScrew™ is particularly well suited to close-to-edge or close-to-anchor fixing as it does not expand and burst the surrounding substrate.
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  7. #7
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    Default What wall plug/anchor should I use?

    +1 for anka screw

    If you get a good bite I’d say it would have to be better than chemset thread??


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    I think ankascrews are brilliant for concrete, but compressed brick, id feel safer using a 100 x 10 ramplug and galvanized coach screw, just because i get nervous of the brick fracturing from two hard things coming together under great tension.
    Theres really no danger of it pulling out of the wall; So long as the cabinet is flush with a solid wall surface, all pressure is downwards on the fastener, not outwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    What about Anka screws?
    Was looking at those today, but it says it should not be used on the cement/mortar between bricks, which could happen.. also yeah concerned about the brick fracturing!

    Dyna no good?

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    Default What wall plug/anchor should I use?

    Quote Originally Posted by rssluca View Post
    Was looking at those today, but it says it should not be used on the cement/mortar between bricks, which could happen.. also yeah concerned about the brick fracturing!

    Dyna no good?
    Dyna bolts are rubbish.

    I’ve never had a brick crack of drilled properly and hole cleared properly. Also can’t remember the last time I didn’t get a good grab in solid/hollow bricks.

    If your unlucky to get he mortar join I don’t see any more issues than if you hit it with a dyna bolt.

    Drill it out properly and clear the hole out. If you really need to you could add chemset but I don’t know if that’s needed.


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    the ankascrew woud be worse in a mortar joint than a ramplug.
    dynabolts are ok on concrete floors , but i would never again use them on any kind of wall. lesson learned there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rebuildr86 View Post
    Theres really no danger of it pulling out of the wall; So long as the cabinet is flush with a solid wall surface, all pressure is downwards on the fastener, not outwards.
    Not true, the top fasteners will try to pull outwards due to the offset weight of the cabinet from the wall.
    Never argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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    i was waiting for someone to try to say that. I assure you, so long as there is a slight clamping force towards the wall, even a minute amount, there is no possibility of a moment to be generated, so all force acts downwards.
    In the old days, they used to stick some dowel in the wall, and stick a nail through the cabinet carcass into the dowel. The only thign tht needs to be increasedd is hte weight capacity of the nail, so something bigger. It doesnt need to hold in to the wall any more than the force that could be applied to pull the cabinet away from the wall. A downward force applied evern to the absolute front of the cabinet, is going to snap the cabinet in half before it manages to create enough of a pivoting moment to pull itself away from the wall around the pivot point; the bottom rear corner of the cabinet against the walll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rebuildr86 View Post
    i was waiting for someone to try to say that. I assure you, so long as there is a slight clamping force towards the wall, even a minute amount, there is no possibility of a moment to be generated, so all force acts downwards.
    In the old days, they used to stick some dowel in the wall, and stick a nail through the cabinet carcass into the dowel. The only thign tht needs to be increasedd is hte weight capacity of the nail, so something bigger. It doesnt need to hold in to the wall any more than the force that could be applied to pull the cabinet away from the wall. A downward force applied evern to the absolute front of the cabinet, is going to snap the cabinet in half before it manages to create enough of a pivoting moment to pull itself away from the wall around the pivot point; the bottom rear corner of the cabinet against the walll.
    What happens when someone leans or sits on the cabinet which is very possible on a wall hung vanity.
    It won't snap the cabinet in half if it is built properly.
    Maybe the OP doesn't need fasteners, he could just fit a hinge on the bottom
    If you are still having issues understanding this, next time you fit a wall hung vanity, sit the cabinet on a ledger board.
    Hold the cabinet to the wall then get one of your mates to sit on it and see what happens.
    Never argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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    No need to be a cocky ******, especially when u dont understand fully what someone is explaining.

    Yes if it is sitting on something, then there will be the possibility of a pivoting moment. But when hung from the top, i could sit on an it wouldnt be able to pivot because the weight would be pushing the cabinet down onto the fastener with all the force pushing down. It doesnt get the chance to pivot.

    Please dont speak to me like that, this brain functions well and im on the ball on this topic.
    Last edited by Uncle Bob; 24th Aug 2018 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Swearing filter failure :)

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    Guys, guys, guys ... no need to get all exited over this. It is not a matter of opinions nor experience. It is a simple physics problem easily solved.
    Lets take the nail in the plug analogy. A fastener that has a ( lets assume ) large load capacity in the vertical plane and hardly any in the horizontal plane.
    Now you are trying to hang a very heavy steel plate that is 6 mm thick and one meter square against the wall using one nail in a fibre plug (just to be period correct

    You have a very good chance to keep the plate in place using the said nail in the fibre plug.
    Why?
    Because the centre of gravity of the plate is 3 mm off the wall. If the plate weight 10 kilos and the pivot point (the lowest point in contact with the wall) is one meter from the nail down, the force applied vertically to the nail, the shearing force, is = 3x10/503= 60 gr ... 10 kg - 0.060 = 9.94 kg ... and the force applied to the nail outwards is 60 gr.

    Now ... hang a cabinet on a wall using the nail in the plug method. A cabinet is ... say 150 deep by 600 x 600 and weights 10 kilos.
    The centre of gravity of the cabinet lets assume is 75 mm from the wall even when it is probably further away due to the weight of the mirror.
    The shearing force this time is 75x10/375= 2 ... 10-2= 8 kg and the pull out force is 2 kg.
    Will your nail in the plug resist 2 kg pulling force? Perhaps, but you did not count on the lady of the house, she will stack the cabinet with about 20 kg worth of shampoo and cosmetics and assorted paraphernalia making the pull out force 6 kg, enough to pull out your nail.

    Conclusion ... any cabinet produces outward pulling forces on the fastener because the centre of gravity is away from the wall. Cabinets are to store stuff. A kitchen cabinet for example holds a lot of weight and is much further away from the wall exerting a very high force horizontally away from the wall.
    Use Ankascrews. They do not brake the brick because they do not apply expanding forces to the brick since it is a cylinder not tapered in any way and relies on a sharp thread to cut in the brick without producing any expanding force and preventing pull out that way.
    Or chem set a threaded rod ... but don't think for a moment that the load is only vertical.
    As for the idea that someone will sit on a bathroom cabinet ... ? ... i can understand sitting on the vanity and don't want to go into what for ... but up there on 150mm? Nee
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebuildr86 View Post
    No need to be a cocky @@@@@@@, especially when u dont understand fully what someone is explaining.

    Yes if it is sitting on something, then there will be the possibility of a pivoting moment. But when hung from the top, i could sit on an it wouldnt be able to pivot because the weight would be pushing the cabinet down onto the fastener with all the force pushing down. It doesnt get the chance to pivot.

    Please dont speak to me like that, this brain functions well and im on the ball on this topic.
    Try to think in terms of couples (mechanical). If an object is not rotating (ie static) then the clockwise couples must equal the anti-clockwise couples.In mechanics, a couple refers to two parallel forces that are equal in magnitude, opposite in sense and do not share a line of action.
    If we take an example of a wall hung vanity that weighs 200N with a cross section of 1m by 1m and has one fixing at the top. For the example we will also assume the centre of gravity of the vanity is 0.5m from the wall.
    If we take a cross section of the wall and vanity with the wall on the left then:
    The couple trying the rotate the vanity in the clockwise direction is 200N times 0.5m = 100Nm. (the wall provides the upward force of 200N and gravity 200N down)
    This couple must be resisted by the fixing at the top of the vanity and the wall at the bottom of the vanity acting in an horizontal direction (pull out force). These forces are one metre apart. (Fixing at top provides an horizontal force to the left and the wall at the bottom a horizontal force to the right)
    So Anti-clockwise couple is equal to POF times 1m.
    In our example POF times 1m must equal 100Nm.
    That is POF = 100N
    If you prefer you can think in terms of kg but the result will be the same.
    The last time I studied statics was 1963 so I might be a bit rusty. Other engineers may be able to explain more elegantly than I am able.
    Last edited by phild01; 24th Aug 2018 at 10:24 PM. Reason: another swearing filter failure :)
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    Physics lessons aside. the ends of the top fasteners would have to move in an upward arc pivoting from the bottom of the cabinet providing the back board is solid enough to support them and the holes are the right size. The bottom fasteners would also have to bend or break.
    This is what also stops the cabinet or wall hung vanity from falling off besides the clamping force.
    This only works if the fixings are in something solid, if the fasteners are in crumbly compressed earth bricks they could very well pull out.
    Marc, who said anything about sitting on a 150mm cabinet
    I did say wall hung vanity above. I have seen it happen first hand in a motel room when on a football trip, a mate phoned us and asked "how am I going to fix this before checkout time?".
    And yes, it was caused by what Marc sort of suggested
    Never argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey66 View Post
    Physics lessons aside. the ends of the top fasteners would have to move in an upward arc pivoting from the bottom of the cabinet providing the back board is solid enough to support them and the holes are the right size. The bottom fasteners would also have to bend or break.
    This is what also stops the cabinet or wall hung vanity from falling off besides the clamping force.
    This only works if the fixings are in something solid, if the fasteners are in crumbly compressed earth bricks they could very well pull out.
    Marc, who said anything about sitting on a 150mm cabinet
    I did say wall hung vanity above. I have seen it happen first hand in a motel room when on a football trip, a mate phoned us and asked "how am I going to fix this before checkout time?".
    And yes, it was caused by what Marc sort of suggested
    It is all physics. (knowledge of nature)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    just use the what ever wall/rawl plugs you like and put a heap of glue/silicon on the back of the vanity... she'll be right
    Remember if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing

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    What's on the other side of the wall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavoSyd View Post
    What's on the other side of the wall?
    It's a single brick wall with render on the other side (kitchen).

    By the way the vanity with the sink is about 45Kg. The stone on top (102 x 49 x 20mm) should weigh approximately 25Kg, so about 70Kg in total.

    Add an entire Myer cosmetics department and a few other things and we are well over 100Kg. If someone then leans on it, boom.

    Can you trust the max weight indicated in the Ramplug package? Would this be vertical or horizontal? I understand that the horizontal force would be greater than the actual weight of the cabinet and what sits on top of it, depending on where the CG is.

    These are for up to 40Kg, so if I use six, that would be up to 240Kg depending on if I am lucky enough to hit the brick and not the mortar in between with all of them.

    Thank you guys all the above is very informative!

  23. #23
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    The ratings for the ramplugs is in the technical documentation from Ramset.

    http://www.ramset.com.au/Document/Do...0anchoring.pdf

    The vertical component is the shear rating, the horizontal is the tension however this is dependant on the rating of what you are mounting too.
    I do not have the experience to take those ratings and calculate the real world values for your situation. I would probably look towards chemset for your situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey66 View Post
    Physics lessons aside. the ends of the top fasteners would have to move in an upward arc pivoting from the bottom of the cabinet providing the back board is solid enough to support them and the holes are the right size. The bottom fasteners would also have to bend or break.
    If the vanity starts to rotate off the wall then the pull out forces will be much greater on the bottom fixing than the pull out forces that were on the top fixing. If the top fixings fail then the bottom fixings are sure to follow.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    If the vanity starts to rotate off the wall then the pull out forces will be much greater on the bottom fixing than the pull out forces the top fixing. If the top fixings fail then the bottom fixings are sure to follow.
    Yes, exactly. Because of the leverage advantage.

    I'd do a test anchor screw before fitting the vanity. (i'd use 8mm)
    Just drill the correct size hole to the maximum depth the wall will allow right at the bottom of where the vanity will sit (bottom fastener position).
    Drill a hole in a long piece of solid timber or rhs (about 2m) and screw it to the wall with one anchor screw.
    Then grab the top of the timber and do your best to pull the the timber away from the wall without injuring yourself.
    If it won't budge, you'll be good to go
    Never argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey66 View Post
    Yes, exactly. Because of the leverage advantage.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    AnkaScrew specs. for brick and block fixing.
    http://www.ramset.com.au/Document/Do...0anchoring.pdf
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    4K Club Member Marc's Avatar
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    I picture a vanity attached with 20 ankascrews to a single brick wall, then loaded with 300 kg of stuff .... coming down with wall and all
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    if you r really worried about it pulling out, (which it wont, it cant,), put the fasterners in on a slight downwards angle. A slight angle, not 45 degrees, just a tiny bit of an angle so its physically impossible for the weight to pivot it. a bit like hammering your tent pegs in towards the centre of the tent!
    to do this, first lightly attach it with some small wallplugs perfectly straight in so the levels are good and nothing will move when u drill on the angle, then drill through the carcas and into the wall on a slight angle.
    And dont put fasteners on the bottom, that can actually be detrimental to the fasteneres on the top, if the bottom fasteners take the weight, then there is no weight on the top ones to stop the pivoting action. one in each of the top two corners only.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails wall-hung-vanity.png  

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    R86 ... Any fastener can pull out, even chemset threaded rod in concrete. It is just a matter of how much force it's required. Time also plays a role.

    When I was about 18, one of my mother's custom made kitchen cabinets collapsed with catastrophic strepitation.
    It was of very solid construction and fixed with screws into plugs, in a solid double brick wall.

    The cabinet was loaded with pots and big piles of plates and it held up for some 5 years and then one day it came down.
    I remember making a paper pattern of the back of the cabinet with all the holes and transferred it to the wall adding some more. Then cemented threaded rod in the wall and hang the cabinet back.
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    I wouldn't angle a fixing into fibre or particle board. That will fatigue the point of contact and make the board weaker at the holding point. When I wall hang I always consider the higher leverage of the cabinet, especially over time.

    The comet flew for quite a while before metal fatigue became a consideration.

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    A small angle? One that makes the pivotting angle of the cabinet impossible?
    I dont think thats really enough of a factor.

    Also when i say it cant pull out, im talking theoretically but also very nearly practically.
    I wonder if anyone actualy understands my point about that yet or if my lack of engineering nomenclature has caused everyone to just dismiss my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rebuildr86 View Post
    A small angle? One that makes the pivotting angle of the cabinet impossible?
    I dont think thats really enough of a factor.

    Also when i say it cant pull out, im talking theoretically but also very nearly practically.
    I wonder if anyone actualy understands my point about that yet or if my lack of engineering nomenclature has caused everyone to just dismiss my experience.
    Im sure they do. I think you have assumed a vertical load only, but the load you should be concerned with is the human load - ie the human that leans on the edge of the vanity, some 450mm out from the wall, the pivot point then being the bottom of the vanity up against the wall, which creates an arc at the connection point not a vertical load.

    you could probably safely stand on top of a vanity if it were your toes right up against the wall so the load is straight down - there is a world of difference between that and right out on the edge where the load is now pulling away from the wall in an arc

    simple leverage that you’ve experienced hundreds of times during demolition I’m sure -

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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy2 View Post
    but the load you should be concerned with is the human load - ie the human that leans on the edge of the vanity, some 450mm out from the wall,
    The leveraged outward load will always be there. The centre of gravity to the fixing point needs accounting for too.

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    The alcohol load also has to be taken account of, also known as the take 30IQ points off the theoretical user factor .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rebuildr86 View Post
    A small angle? One that makes the pivotting angle of the cabinet impossible?
    I dont think thats really enough of a factor.

    Also when i say it cant pull out, im talking theoretically but also very nearly practically.
    I wonder if anyone actually understands my point about that yet or if my lack of engineering nomenclature has caused everyone to just dismiss my experience.
    I understand your point perfectly, and you are right in a sense. If you slide a nail in a hole in the wall at 90 degree and another at say 110 degree, clearly the one at an angle will be more stable. However it relies on the integrity of the wall only and at an angle the bit of wall that is holding it in, is more susceptible to break.
    If on the other hand you are using a proper fastener not a nail, the fastener is anchored to the wall through friction and will be more stable if it is square to the wall than if it is angled in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy2 View Post
    The alcohol load also has to be taken account of, also known as the take 30IQ points off the theoretical user factor .
    Or factor in if the wife gives you that “come hither” look. If she ends up with that new dorf tap in the wrong passage becuase the bench collapsed I can’t see it ending well for you
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    Yeh fair enough, but marc a nail can bend, an ankascrew or ramplug screw, i cant imagine them bending at all. And im really talking like minimal angle just enough that the arc is blocked by the weight pushing down (probably 95 percent of the force in the case of a vanity) and the top surface of the fastener.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    The comet flew for quite a while before metal fatigue became a consideration.
    Once fixed (oval windows and thicker skin) the Comet flew for over 60 years. Retired in 2011.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    Once fixed (oval windows and thicker skin) the Comet flew for over 60 years. Retired in 2011.
    Interesting, thought they stopped operation.

    edit: Was withdrawn from service (1954?), redesigned and re-entered commercial service (1958) as a newer aircraft.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Interesting, thought they stopped operation.

    edit: Was withdrawn from service (1954?), redesigned and re-entered commercial service (1958) as a newer aircraft.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet
    By 'fixed' I mean redesigned. Comet 1 never flew again. Comet 4 re-entered service as you say in 1958. I mentioned it because most people believe the Comet was a totally flawed design.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    By 'fixed' I mean redesigned. Comet 1 never flew again. Comet 4 re-entered service as you say in 1958. I mentioned it because most people believe the Comet was a totally flawed design.
    Along with the Constellation, the Comet is one of my old favourites, but never been in either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Along with the Constellation, the Comet is one of my old favourites, but never been in either.
    This might help.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YFB9P6Jflg
    My friend's father worked at Heathrow and TWA used to give models of the Constellation out to workers. I think every child in my street had one. I would have been about seven years old.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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    Community Moderator phild01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UseByDate View Post
    Magic
    ...the video that followed that one said the last commercial flights were in 1980.

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    1K Club Member UseByDate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Magic
    ...the video that followed that one said the last commercial flights were in 1980.
    RAF flew them until 2011.
    “What a fool believes, he sees. No wise man has the power to reason away”- The Doobie Brothers

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