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  1. #1
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    Default Skillion roof trusses and fixings

    Hi everyone, first time posting but been viewing the forums for long time.

    We are currently building a house with a skillion roof. The builder tells me the frames and trusses are all complete and they're now moving onto next stage of the build, however when I did a walk through on the weekend I spotted a couple of things that I wasn't sure was quite right.

    It my understanding correct that the corner of each truss must be secured with a truss boot ? In the first couple of photos, one left side view, it shows what looks to be joist hangers, not truss boots, and the right side view shows nothing used at all. Is what they have used on the left side correct and to code ? It seems they have forgotten about the right side ??

    In the last photo, we have a raked ceiling in kitchen & dining room, with a nice highlight window above some sliding doors. It seems that the trusses are just resting on their tails and sitting on the top plate of wall frame. Surely these also need to be fixed at bottom corners of each truss ??

    Apologies if I haven't used correct terminology, this has been a real learning experience so far, and I just want to make sure there's no short cuts in our build. Any feedback and/or advice by those more experienced or qualified would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks everyone.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails centre_of_house_trusses_leftsideview_20210807_084751.jpg   centre_of_house_trusses_rightsideview_20210807_084740.jpg   dining_room_trusses_20210807_094212.jpg   front_view_render_20210812_102752.jpg  

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    Roof trusses are engineered components, there will be detailed engineering documentation provided by the truss manufacturer /engineer about how and where all the connections should be made.
    Refer to those documents for the questions above.

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    Dont know enough to provide technical feedback however just an observation, the trusses on the right side of the first photo, seems to be also supported by a load bearing wall ~1.5m to the right of the laminated beams. The tech doco's will likely answer your questions.

    Refer to Droogs reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VEL070 View Post
    Hi everyone, first time posting but been viewing the forums for long time.

    We are currently building a house with a skillion roof. The builder tells me the frames and trusses are all complete and they're now moving onto next stage of the build, however when I did a walk through on the weekend I spotted a couple of things that I wasn't sure was quite right.

    It my understanding correct that the corner of each truss must be secured with a truss boot ? In the first couple of photos, one left side view, it shows what looks to be joist hangers, not truss boots, and the right side view shows nothing used at all. Is what they have used on the left side correct and to code ? It seems they have forgotten about the right side ??

    In the last photo, we have a raked ceiling in kitchen & dining room, with a nice highlight window above some sliding doors. It seems that the trusses are just resting on their tails and sitting on the top plate of wall frame. Surely these also need to be fixed at bottom corners of each truss ??

    Apologies if I haven't used correct terminology, this has been a real learning experience so far, and I just want to make sure there's no short cuts in our build. Any feedback and/or advice by those more experienced or qualified would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks everyone.
    all the truss boots , hangers cyclone straps etc are supplied with the trusses & there will be a diagram of where they go & usually the number of fasteners required as well, nobody can say if it's deficient with out those documents, the certifier at the frame inspection will sight each joint & verify that the required engineered joint is to the truss design.
    inter

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    Hi guys, many thanks for your feedback and comments.

    Unfortunately we don't have access to the truss manufacturers/engineers documents, these are held by the builder I imagine - something we're not privy to as the client.

    I certainly don't have an issue asking/questioning the builder about any concerns, and yes there is an independent certifier that signs off each stage of the build so I'm guessing that if it's not right it will be picked up by the certifier.

    Cheers guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VEL070 View Post
    ...
    Unfortunately we don't have access to the truss manufacturers/engineers documents, these are held by the builder I imagine - something we're not privy to as the client.
    ...
    You paid for them. They are yours

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    Thanks r3nov8or. So the builder shouldn't have an issue if I ask them for a copy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VEL070 View Post
    Thanks r3nov8or. So the builder shouldn't have an issue if I ask them for a copy?
    Should be fine. Especially if it's all done per the plans

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    You paid for them. They are yours
    Actually no, they are for use of the builder, and copyright of the truss manufacturer, the client doesn't have a right to see those documents at all, when clients that make those types of requests , builders get tied up in never ending time consuming costly tasks which they aren't obligated to do , if it isn't mentioned in the building contract to supply such documentation to the client , don't be suprised if you don't get it.
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Actually no, they are for use of the builder, and copyright of the truss ,manufacturer, the client doesn't have a right to see those documents at all, when clients that make those types of requests , builders get tied up in never ending time consuming costly tasks which they aren't obligated to do , if it isn't mentioned in the building contract to supply such documentation to the client , don't be suprised if you don't get it.
    inter
    If a builder is happy with their work they wouldn't hold back on this from the owner.

    The truss plans are required to be provided to the building surveyor. And to an independent/private surveyor should the owner choose to engage one. Holding back from the owner himself is fools play and very suspicious

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    I would expect some sort of boot bolted through the girder truss. The RHS trusses have nothing, it looks like your photo has captured an internal wall and the angle of the photo gives the impression that the RHS trusses are sitting on this frame and it looks like the top plate is not load bearing.
    Your third image shows the top chord of the trusses on top of what looks like a steel beam. The bottom chord, where all the roof load sits, has no support at all.
    I recommend you get the Pryda Roof Truss Installation Guide, a PDF from the Pryda web site. Guidelines in this document are a sub-set of thefull Australian Standard® AS4440-2004 “Installation ofnailplated timber trusses”. Section 5 refers to Girder truss connections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    If a builder is happy with their work they wouldn't hold back on this from the owner.

    The truss plans are required to be provided to the building surveyor. And to an independent/private surveyor should the owner choose to engage one. Holding back from the owner himself is fools play and very suspicious
    It has nothing to do with a builder being happy, a builder isn't there to provide technical information to a novice as it costs time & money, If a builder isn't very bright they end up being stuffed around by clients making unreasonable requests, a client actually isn't allowed on the site without the permission of the builder, contracturally the builder has full control of the site, years ago I consulted to a builder once that was trying to answer on average 5 or 6 stupid requests for information every day from the client, I solved his problem with a duplicate order book which he would jot down the shortest of answers & give back to the client on the spot. Nowhere in business is a novice allowed to scrutinise somebody doing their job, you aren't allowed in a workshop to see a mechanic working on your car , or sit in on a specialist doctor doing surgery on your wife.
    inter

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    My mechanic has often invited me to inspect what he's talking about. Watched my share of caesereans too.

    I wonder what the OP is up to...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobLurto View Post
    I would expect some sort of boot bolted through the girder truss. The RHS trusses have nothing, it looks like your photo has captured an internal wall and the angle of the photo gives the impression that the RHS trusses are sitting on this frame and it looks like the top plate is not load bearing.
    Your third image shows the top chord of the trusses on top of what looks like a steel beam. The bottom chord, where all the roof load sits, has no support at all.
    I recommend you get the Pryda Roof Truss Installation Guide, a PDF from the Pryda web site. Guidelines in this document are a sub-set of thefull Australian Standard® AS4440-2004 “Installation ofnailplated timber trusses”. Section 5 refers to Girder truss connections.
    Hi Bob, please change your profile location to be more specific, state level as a minimum. It helps for advice (regs, services, products etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Actually no, they are for use of the builder, and copyright of the truss manufacturer, the client doesn't have a right to see those documents at all, when clients that make those types of requests , builders get tied up in never ending time consuming costly tasks which they aren't obligated to do , if it isn't mentioned in the building contract to supply such documentation to the client , don't be suprised if you don't get it.
    inter
    Things must be different in NSW, when we did some work here the builder submitted plans to council and duplicates of drawings were attached to the permit and mailed directly to us. Such copies costs were part of the fee we had to pay council
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    Things must be different in NSW, when we did some work here the builder submitted plans to council and duplicates of drawings were attached to the permit and mailed directly to us. Such copies costs were part of the fee we had to pay council
    you are getting confused about the subject , which is the technical documents for the truss erection, and they are a matter between the truss manufacturer, the builder & the certifier, the client usually never gets to see them or is ever given a copy of them.
    inter

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    So what if you are an owner-builder??
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    So what if you are an owner-builder??
    Then you have answered your own question , you are the builder.
    inter

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    I fail to see the difference myself, but I bow to the superior experience, but I tend to r3nov8ors POV
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    Waiting for VEL070....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
    I fail to see the difference myself, but I bow to the superior experience, but I tend to r3nov8ors POV
    I'm a builder, so I see I see it from a business point of view, back in the good old days when profit margins were better, and banks weren't dictating ridiculously low m2 rates, builders could afford to give a higher standard of customer service. When people want to pay a bit more , they can expect a bit more.
    inter

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    inter, how much time is a builder going to lose by handing over truss engineering plans that he has fully complied with?
    Answer? About 30 seconds
    Stop being ridiculous

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    inter, how much time is a builder going to lose by handing over truss engineering plans that he has fully complied with?
    Answer? About 30 seconds
    Stop being ridiculous
    you may think it's ridiculous , but its business and the contract obligations are the goal posts, I suppose the client could see them for a few hundred dollars if they were really keen on wanting to get them.
    Imagine if I asked my engineer to produce his calculations for a structural steel design, he'd tell me ***k off real quick then charge me a small fortune for the phone call.
    Inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    I suppose the client could see them for a few hundred dollars if they were really keen on wanting to get them.
    poor show!

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    poor show!
    Unfortunately there is no future in doing business for free, once the door is open, one thing leads to another then another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Unfortunately there is no future in doing business for free, once the door is open, one thing leads to another then another.
    Why would it be for free to show a truss spec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    Why would it be for free to show a truss spec.
    It wouldn't be,
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    It wouldn't be,
    inter

    As the builder you have a record of the truss spec from the manufacturer. Why would the customer then need to... as you say "I suppose the client could see them for a few hundred dollars if they were really keen on wanting to get them."

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post

    As the builder you have a record of the truss spec from the manufacturer. Why would the customer then need to... as you say "I suppose the client could see them for a few hundred dollars if they were really keen on wanting to get them."
    As a builder it isn't my job or duty to provide extra non contractural information to novices, but if they really want to insist, it will cost them because that is an extra. Would you be someone that expects things for free? Charities and people that sponge off them work on that principle.
    inter

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    FFS where is VEL070 with an update?

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    As a builder it isn't my job or duty to provide extra non contractural information to novices, but if they really want to insist, it will cost them because that is an extra. Would you be someone that expects things for free? Charities and people that sponge off them work on that principle.
    inter
    They have paid you for all that you do and that includes your truss suppliers costs, so I am totally baffled why you would hide a spec that is no additional cost to you, a cost already incorporated with what they are paying you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phild01 View Post
    They have paid you for all that you do and that includes your truss suppliers costs, so I am totally baffled why you would hide a spec that is no additional cost to you, a cost already incorporated with what they are paying you.
    You are obviously missing the point about business I'll put it another way, if you were to go to your solicitor who was holding your property title & get them to produce a copy of your property title the solicitor would charge you, right down to the cost of the facsimile paper, you just have the mindset that a builder would do it for free. The public is so entrenched with the mindset that builders will do things for free, mainly because of builders who are poor business people have let it become that way.
    inter

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    Inter, something strange about that attitude. You are paid for what you have done already, that is double dipping. Sure you can be petty and charge for the tiny amount of effort of duplicating but that certainly isn't a few hundred dollars. Solicitors are scum for how they charge, no need to be like them.

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    Default Skillion roof trusses and fixings

    Comparing yourself to Soliciters is not the best, their charging model is verging on extortion.

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    All professions charge for services above & beyond what is in a contract or a service , Drs , Dentists, Architects , Engineers, Consultants, etc, etc, I get it, it’s quite clear you fellows just think builders have to do things for free, I’m not one of those dopey builders who gets tied in knots when they give an untrained person who has a little knowledge some non contractural information , it’s a slippery slope from there on.
    Here’s another example, if you have ever had surgery, go and ask the surgeon for the operation notes, they will tell you to go and jump, the only people that can get to see them is another surgeon who takes on you as patient or on the demand of a subpoena,
    Do you get the picture yet?
    inter

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    Where the hell is VEL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    All professions charge for services above & beyond what is in a contract or a service , Drs , Dentists, Architects , Engineers, Consultants, etc, etc, I get it, it’s quite clear you fellows just think builders have to do things for free, I’m not one of those dopey builders who gets tied in knots when they give an untrained person who has a little knowledge some non contractural information , it’s a slippery slope from there on.
    Here’s another example, if you have ever had surgery, go and ask the surgeon for the operation notes, they will tell you to go and jump, the only people that can get to see them is another surgeon who takes on you as patient or on the demand of a subpoena,
    Do you get the picture yet?
    inter
    Another bad example. I had sinus surgery many years ago (thankfully I don't get surgery often). At the follow-up visit the surgeon read the notes to me when I asked, and gave me a copy when I asked. Just clicked Print. Amazing! Some people have nothing to hide I guess

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    Recently, I too had some sphenoid sinus surgery, saw the notes and as such did pick up an error because some of it was cut and paste from another patient's notes...oh could be why...to hide anything erroneous.

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    Now the examples are getting a bit out there.
    I have no idea if documentation about trusses are secret for some commercial in confidence, or if the builder can legally refuse such documentation to the customer ( I doubt it) but to say that the surgeon or the doctor will refuse medical history or surgical notes because the patient is not a colleague, is not accurate.

    A health service provider can refuse to give you access to your health information in some situations, such as if:

    • it may threaten your or someone else’s life, health or safety
    • it may impact someone else’s privacy
    • giving access would be unlawful
    Health history can only be refused if there is a specific reason for such refusal, and yes, there can be a charge as long as it is reasonable
    A health service provider may charge a fee for giving you access, but this charge can’t be excessive.
    The charge may include the cost of:

    • staff searching for, locating and retrieving the requested information, and deciding which health information is relevant to the request
    • staff reproducing and sending the health information
    • the postage or materials involved in giving access
    • using an intermediary, if necessary

    A health service provider can’t use this charge to discourage you from requesting access to your health information. If possible, they should tell you the likely amount of the charge.
    Work cover cases are different because there are third parties involved that don't necessarily have the patient interest at heart, so the court needs to demand the history with an order.

    https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/heal...h-information/
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    Another bad example. I had sinus surgery many years ago (thankfully I don't get surgery often). At the follow-up visit the surgeon read the notes to me when I asked, and gave me a copy when I asked. Just clicked Print. Amazing! Some people have nothing to hide I guess
    Unless your happen to be a surgeon in the same field there is no way you would even understand what was written in a surgeons operation notes unless you'd done 6 years of anatomy that's written in Latin, I'm fairly certain you boys are confusing your medical record with notes.
    Either way you are still thinking a poor old builder has to do things for nothing because that's your mindset.
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Now the examples are getting a bit out there.
    I have no idea if documentation about trusses are secret for some commercial in confidence, or if the builder can legally refuse such documentation to the customer ( I doubt it) but to say that the surgeon or the doctor will refuse medical history or surgical notes because the patient is not a colleague, is not accurate.

    Health history can only be refused if there is a specific reason for such refusal, and yes, there can be a charge as long as it is reasonable
    Work cover cases are different because there are third parties involved that don't necessarily have the patient interest at heart, so the court needs to demand the history with an order.

    https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/heal...h-information/
    what is being discussed is whether a client has the right to see said building technical information, they don't unless its specifically stated in the contract, so therefore they can be charged for that information, as it's an extra service.
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    Unless your happen to be a surgeon in the same field there is no way you would even understand what was written in a surgeons operation notes unless you'd done 6 years of anatomy that's written in Latin, I'm fairly certain you boys are confusing your medical record with notes.
    Either way you are still thinking a poor old builder has to do things for nothing because that's your mindset.
    inter
    Anyway, you have the bases covered. If VEL070's builder does provide them, in your opinion he's a dopey builder. If he doesn't, or wishes to charge for them, he's an astute builder, just like you. Well played, albeit within the limits of the ancedotes discussed.

    Doesn't change the fact that the original photos indicate incomplete work which the builder has stated is complete

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    Thanks for the many posts, feedback, and comments guys, really appreciated.

    As someone who knows a only a little about building a home, and having a few tradie mates as well as my brother being a builder, the photos I posted up in my original post were things that jumped out at me when I did a walk through a couple of weekends ago.

    Now after speaking with the builder shortly after my original post, he tells me that everything has been done as per "truss manufacturers requirements" yet I have walked through our house again yesterday after my builder telling me the bricking is going to start this week but we still don't have any facia, gutters, or roof sheeting on the place, and still no truss boots or brackets in photos I posted earlier. Bascially nothing has changed since my post. I also cannot see any L-brackets connecting any of the trusses and top plate of wall frames either which as I understand is required under AS1684 ??

    Our builder has also said that we should receive a copy of the sign off of each stage once certifier has been, ie; slab pour stage, frame & window stage, etc... but we've received nothing.

    From chatting to friends that have gone through building a house, there's always going to be some issues along the way, I get that, but should we be questioning the builder about this stuff ??

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    In short, based on those comments and that nothing has changed and they intend to continue progressing, I suggest employing your own independent building inspection company for peace of mind. Not sure what they are called in NSW

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    Just be sure you have the financial advantage with anything like that, some builders abandon their work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    Anyway, you have the bases covered. If VEL070's builder does provide them, in your opinion he's a dopey builder. If he doesn't, or wishes to charge for them, he's an astute builder, just like you. Well played, albeit within the limits of the ancedotes discussed.

    Doesn't change the fact that the original photos indicate incomplete work which the builder has stated is complete
    Without the truss installation diagram and the photos provided, nobody here can really comment whether the work is incomplete or not, the OP later has said there are no L brackets installed which is not a good sign, there are 3 types of builders out there, astute, dopey & dodgy , so it is pointing towards the latter, I would suggest he raises his concerns with the certifier, the contract will state at what stages funds are released to the builder, if they are making a claim & completion of that stage is not complete the lender should be informed as they control the money & ultimately the money controls the builder
    inter

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    Putting aside all the above waffle, Have you asked the builder if you can see a copy of the truss manufacturers installation documents ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by droog View Post
    Putting aside all the above waffle, Have you asked the builder if you can see a copy of the truss manufacturers installation documents ?
    That piece of the waffle was suggested very early on.

    Actually, I think it was the instigating waffle, in batter form

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    If not sharing the specs means Inter can deliver a reno in Sydney for under $5k per sm then I'm all in for not sharing with the customer. Somehow I don't think it's builders sharing specs that means costs are so high here...I call BS

    And yes the engineer should be challenged on his specs. My neighbour was way over spec'd by the engineer for his slabs and piers. Lucky for my neighbour he had access to commercial building engineer through his work and was told it way over spec'd at his cost. Requirements were wound way back and the other engineer still says it's over spec'd.

    So you talk about costs, the lack of transparency and scrutiny costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboboz View Post
    If not sharing the specs means Inter can deliver a reno in Sydney for under $5k per sm then I'm all in for not sharing with the customer. Somehow I don't think it's builders sharing specs that means costs are so high here...I call BS

    And yes the engineer should be challenged on his specs. My neighbour was way over spec'd by the engineer for his slabs and piers. Lucky for my neighbour he had access to commercial building engineer through his work and was told it way over spec'd at his cost. Requirements were wound way back and the other engineer still says it's over spec'd.

    So you talk about costs, the lack of transparency and scrutiny costs.
    Well said

    Of course here we are talking about underdone, rather than over specced.

    But yes, the lack of transparency and scrutiny costs

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