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Removing wall. Best way to prop up the underpurlin ??

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  1. #1
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    Default Removing wall. Best way to prop up the underpurlin ??

    I need to remove part of a load bearing wall. I will be Installing an lvl from underneath the ceiling, supported by triple studs either end. The wall being removed has 3 struts sitting on top of it.

    My question is, What is the best way to prop up the underpurlin, whilst the wall is being removed?

    I am thinking, build a temporary stud wall paaralel to the one being removed. Then put some temporary struts in from the temp wall to the underpurlin. Then the walll can be removed, and the LVL can be installed. Temp wall/struts can now be pulled down.

    Also, is it ok to leave the top plate in, and have the LVL hard up to it ? Or do people remove the top plate aswell, and re-nail the struts on to the new beam ?

    I have attached a diagram to show what i mean. untitled.jpg

  2. #2
    Seasoned DIY droog's Avatar
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    I am by no means an expert in this area but I thought that acrow props were designed for this type of thing ?

  3. #3
    Je pense, donc METRIX's Avatar
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    This is a very dangerous thing to do if you don't have experience, I would recommend you get a licensed chippy or builder to assist you doing this.

    I have a few questions.

    Why are you putting the LVL under the ceiling, you can put it in the roof cavity and strut straight off that, it will need to span across walls to do this successfully.

    How big is the opening you will be creating ?

    What is the current sized opening in the wall, or is there currently no opening ?

    What sized LVL are you intending on using ?

    What type of floor do you have there, Timber or Slab ?

    What type of roof do you have, Tiles or Colorbond ?

    Why did you choose a triple stud ?

    What thickness are the walls 70mm or 90mm ?

    Can you post a few pics of the roof showing the struts etc ?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    This is a very dangerous thing to do if you don't have experience, I would recommend you get a licensed chippy or builder to assist you doing this.

    I have a few questions.

    Why are you putting the LVL under the ceiling, you can put it in the roof cavity and strut straight off that, it will need to span across walls to do this successfully.
    The structural engineer, stated it is a much easier job, and can be done cheaper. We have no problem with this, as there will be a bulkhead over it.

    How big is the opening you will be creating ?
    2400

    What is the current sized opening in the wall, or is there currently no opening ?
    Wall is 3500 long. There is no opening.

    What sized LVL are you intending on using ?
    LVL 190 x 45 x 3000

    What type of floor do you have there, Timber or Slab ?
    Timber floorboards.

    What type of roof do you have, Tiles or Colorbond ?
    Tiles

    Why did you choose a triple stud ?
    It is what the engineer has specified.

    What thickness are the walls 70mm or 90mm ?
    90

    Can you post a few pics of the roof showing the struts etc ?



    Basically, i know what needs to be done. Just unsure of the best way to support the load while doing it. I have seen it done a couple of different ways.
    Cheers

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by droog View Post
    I am by no means an expert in this area but I thought that acrow props were designed for this type of thing ?
    Yeah, i have seen people do this sort of work both ways. With acro props, and by constructing temp walls.

    Im thinking a temp wall could support both the ceiling joists, and the roof load, untill i get the beam in place.

  6. #6
    Member BalliangBuilder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing wall. Best way to prop up the underpurlin ??

    I have heard of people using the following method but I in no way endorse it.

    First add extra studs 90x45 under or as close as you can to the props in the wall on flat (rotated 90 degrees to normal) and to one side to allow 45mm to fit the beam.

    Then carefully hit the existing studs to rotate them so they are also rotated 90 degrees and to the same side of the plate as the added studs.

    You should now have free space under the plate to add you LVL. Fit your beam with the tipple studs in place, after the beam is correctly fitted remove all the rotated studs and your done.

    But I in no way recommend you trying this.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalliangBuilder View Post
    I have heard of people using the following method but I in no way endorse it.

    First add extra studs 90x45 under or as close as you can to the props in the wall on flat (rotated 90 degrees to normal) and to one side to allow 45mm to fit the beam.

    Then carefully hit the existing studs to rotate them so they are also rotated 90 degrees and to the same side of the plate as the added studs.

    You should now have free space under the plate to add you LVL. Fit your beam with the tipple studs in place, after the beam is correctly fitted remove all the rotated studs and your done.

    But I in no way recommend you trying this.
    I see how this could work . But wouldn't this mean that the LVL would not be central to the existing top plate. It would be off to one side. Eg. flush with the outside of the top plate. I was thinking the LVL would be better directly under the top plate. Perhaps it would make no difference. I certainly wouldn't try doing something like this myself. I guess this is the quick n easy approach.

  8. #8
    Je pense, donc METRIX's Avatar
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    There is a few different ways of doing it, and it is a straight forward job for an experienced person.

    Remove the gyprock and cornice on one side of the wall so it allows you to install the temporary studs and cut the existing ones easily, you can leave the gyprock intact on the other side of the wall as you can do all the work from one side.

    Knock out all the noggins in the proposed opening and put up temporary 90x45 studs on their flat next to each existing stud.

    Install all these to the opposite side of the top plate where the LVL will be going so it leaves enough room to get the LVL in without touching the temporary studs, make sure the temporary studs are cut to fit in tight, and skew nailed in so they can't be accidentally knocked out.

    Mark the distance you want to cut on the existing studs with a chalk line, as top plates can be a little bent and you may need a little more than 190 to get the LVL in, the chalk line will show you how much needs cutting, if the top plate is bent, you can pack this out with some fibro later.

    Notch out all existing studs which need to be removed to fit the LVL in, ie 190x45 (Don't remove the existing studs just notch out the part where the LVL is going to sit).

    It is good practice to leave the old studs in there as they are still taking some of the load, if the LVL is going hard up against the top plate use an old blade on your circular saw as you will be cutting through some of the nails at the tops of the existing studs, also wear eye protection as cutting the nails flicks bits of hot metal at you, cut them slowly where the nail part is so you don't damage the blade too much.

    Knock out the notched timber and clean up with a chisel, then put your new LVL in place, install your triple studs as required, (you should be able to use one existing stud either side as your first stud, and add two additional ones next to it).

    Once it is all supported and nailed off you can remove the temporary studs and cut out the existing studs, and bottom plate to create your new opening.

    Note: You can use Acrows in place of the temporary studs, but they cost more to hire than the timber will cost you, plus they tend to get in the way when doing a little job like this, and are harder to keep sturdy as you will only be supporting them on 45mm of the plates, we just use timber as its easier, and gets used elsewhere when finished.

    In situations where the wall is not loaded up you can do away with the temporary studs, but as your wall has struts on it, the temporary studs is a must.

    If it was my job, I would option for putting a new strutting beam in the roof, allowing you to make the opening full height, but the choice is yours, both methods are straight forward to install.

    Any information provided here is only for your reference, and provided for you to do further investigations.
    I would recommend you have a licensed or experienced person assist you with this as it is not a job for the in experienced, especially if you have a tiled roof load sitting on the wall the potential for something to go wrong is always there, and there is an awful lot of weight above you.

    If you want to save some money you can prepare everything such as removing all the gyprock etc, and get a builder in to do the tricky bit of inserting the beam, then you can tidy up the gyprock and finish off, this way you only need the builder there for a few hours.

  9. #9
    Member BalliangBuilder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing wall. Best way to prop up the underpurlin ??

    Quote Originally Posted by paul4444 View Post
    I see how this could work . But wouldn't this mean that the LVL would not be central to the existing top plate. It would be off to one side. Eg. flush with the outside of the top plate. I was thinking the LVL would be better directly under the top plate. Perhaps it would make no difference. I certainly wouldn't try doing something like this myself. I guess this is the quick n easy approach.
    The lintel does not need to be central to the plate, we have used METRIX's method before on renovations but it can be wasteful as you can't reuse the checked out studs but as you are only making the one change to your internal walls, then this may not be an issue.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalliangBuilder View Post
    The lintel does not need to be central to the plate, we have used METRIX's method before on renovations but it can be wasteful as you can't reuse the checked out studs but as you are only making the one change to your internal walls, then this may not be an issue.
    I hope you havent put a lintle in here unless there is a window present , I would look at the shortest span of the room and using a strutting beam like in the picture I have provided, it will cut down the size required and use 3 of them if there are 3 struts to support and place in the roof so they are not seen.

    I think you were trying to run the LVL in the same direction as the underpurlin and multiple struts onto the beam which would require a huge LVL.

    Also this way you can attack one at a time, size these up using steel and the size would be even smaller and the cost difference between steel and LVL is negligible.

    Here is the barrup strap which cost about $30.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img013.jpg   img014.jpg  
    cheers Look out if I have a tape measure in my hand.....I'm upto something

  11. #11
    Je pense, donc METRIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul4444 View Post
    I see how this could work . But wouldn't this mean that the LVL would not be central to the existing top plate. It would be off to one side. Eg. flush with the outside of the top plate. I was thinking the LVL would be better directly under the top plate. Perhaps it would make no difference. I certainly wouldn't try doing something like this myself. I guess this is the quick n easy approach.
    The LVL is good to sit to one side no need to sit in the middle (this is how it's normally done) you just block out the other 45mm so the gyprock has something to sit against.

    If you follow the process above and leave the existing studs in place and notch them out, then just cut them off at the lowest point of the LVL as they are already supporting the gyprock wall on the untouched side, just put a few nails through them from the untouched side so they don't move.

    With the method outlined above or putting it in the ceiling, both are as easy as each other, I would go for in the ceiling 90% of our clients want it in the ceiling.

    If putting in the ceiling the size difference of the LVL won't grow that much to what has been specified, not knowing your spans I have made some random figures fr a strutting beam.

    Total Underpurlin Span = 4500
    Rafter Span = 4500
    Strutting beam span = 3000
    Roof Dead Load 60 kg/m2
    Wind Speed N2

    LVL15 240 x 42 will be loaded to 55%, with 5mm deflection from dead load
    LVL15 300 x 42 will be loaded to 51%, with 3mm deflection from dead load
    LVL15 200 x 58 will be loaded to 69%, with 7mm deflection from dead load

    For the above I would be choosing the 300x42


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