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Another new shed (gutter brackets issue or wallsheets too short)

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  1. #1
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    Default Another new shed (gutter brackets issue or wallsheets too short)

    First time shed builder! Started 6 months ago and work at my leasure. Shed is 3.6m x 7.2m x 2.4m with a 2.4m roller door on the side. No PA door, this being a windy area it will just flap about like the one in little garden shed - a serious pest. No windows but 4 skylights. Will have power (dug 20m trench to the house 600mm deep (as is required here in Victoria). I'm halfway there, frame is up and next for the slab prior to the wall sheets and roof.

    Strong shed with solid steel posts and trusses, footers in 600mm deep x 450mm wide concrete (on top of which will go the 100mm slab), this thing won't go anywhere soon.

    Some issues I have encountered:
    1. Basic instructions supplied but few details, looks like this is common. Drawing for the custom roller door location supplied but took me ages to figure it out (and I do have engineering education).

    2. Needed to grind back large welds on one side on the brackets supporting the C-purlins or the walls would be out of alignment by up to 10mm (24 in all). Anything not straight or level I see easily and will ennoy me to no end...

    3. One post supporting the roller door was 50mm too long so needed to be cut and the U-bracket at the top rewelded. All done.

    Issues I am encountering:
    1. Corner flashings only supplied for the shed corners, none for the roller door opening (sides and top).

    2. I understand that the wall sheets should cover the full width (allowing a bit not to touch the roofing sheets) of the horizontal C-purlins near the roof (100mm wide, back facing out). The gutter brackets would then be mounted on the ribs of the wall sheets. On that basis the sheets just reach the top of the slab (not yet laid) whereas I was advised they overlap on the side of the slab. I intend to use (and have ordered) formgirt (http://www.shedproducts.com) as slab formwork, making the job neat and simple (albeit at a cost). Using that product it looks like the bottom of the sheets will be 50mm below the slab surface).

    Can you guys confirm that is the correct way to mount the gutter brackets (on the ribs of the wallsheets)? If I lower the sheets (by some 50mm) I believe the stiffnes and strength of the walls near the roof would be compromised and the brackets need to be mounted directly to the C-purlins.

    Wallsheets look like having to be exchanged.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Trailer bloke Yonnee's Avatar
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    If yours are the style of gutter brackets that strap underneath the guttering, then these dont require the back of the guttering to be flush with the wall, so you can mount the brackets on the flats between the ribs. this would make for a stronger mount for the brackets anyway as the purlin would be thicker guage material than the wall sheet.
    I would doubt that lowering your sheets by 50mm would have any bearing whatsoever on the strength of the wall sheet at the top, besides, you'd be screwing it, then sandwiching it between the purlin and the gutter brackets, then sittng the guttering against it. Trust me, the sheet isn't going to come off.

    As for your flashings, there usually isn't any at the top of a roller door, but I'd be asking about them for the edges of the door opening.

    Just a thought... when you sheet above the door opening, hang the sheet 5mm below the frame to act as a drip rail. Not that anything could get in if you didn't anyway, but water has a way of travelling where you least expect it.
    Too many projects, so little time, even less money!
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  3. #3
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    Thanks Yonnee.

    Attached a picture of one of the brackets and the wallsheet profile. Mounting the brackets on the flat won't work as the ribs won't allow the gutter to drop in.

    The brackets need to be mounted either on the wallsheet ribs or above the wall sheets.

    The back of the brackets is 65mm. I now realize that mounting the brackets above the wall sheets require the wallsheets to be lowered by 65mm. Using the formgirt the wallsheets cannot be lower than 50mm from the surface of the slab meaning I would have to cut off 15mm from all the sheets. That would also result in a very visible exposed purlin under the gutter (due to the rounding of the brackets and gutter within). Not very tidy at all.

    Good point about some extra length above the door opening. Unfortunately they are cut to size, no allowance for that.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gutter-brackets-25-.jpg  

  4. #4
    Trailer bloke Yonnee's Avatar
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    I used those same bracket that were supplied with my two sheds, and once it is up, you'll find that the bracket will wrap around and conform to the gutter even when sitting as you've put them in the photo.

    If you want, I'll take a photo of mine to show you.
    Too many projects, so little time, even less money!
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  5. #5
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    Yonnee,

    The brackets will fit the gutter, but I can't "see" how the gutter will go on to the wallsheets if mounted on the flat. The ribs will be in the way.

    So a photo would be great.

    Thanks.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Jacksin's Avatar
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    You are correct Spruik.

    The brackets that you have are attached ON the ribs either fixed through to the C section or simply pop riveted to the rib itself.

    My Easybuilt (or Olympic) garage does not have an external bracket such as yours (only an internal one that clips into the bead) and is fixed by pop rivets through its back (up high) into the rib.

    When I have replaced gutters on garages using your type of bracket I have fixed through to the C section or timber because the iron is pretty old.

    The wall cladding is not made to continue down way past the concrete floor as it will eventually rust out. All you are meant to do is lift the concrete floor barely 10mm above the bottom edge of the wall sheeting to keep out water
    Last edited by Jacksin; 21st Jan 2008 at 02:05 PM. Reason: addition
    Jack

  7. #7
    Trailer bloke Yonnee's Avatar
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    With mine;
    I put the wall sheets up allowing the height to be below the eventual floor level;
    Then set the heights of the gutter brackets to allow for the fall and screwed them to the top purlin (I set mine up one either end with the drop and then a string line);
    Measure & join the guttering on the ground (easier than trying to drill, glue & rivet up in the air);
    Then sit the gutter in the brackets and bend the tops over the gutter, it just sits against the ribs of the sheet. (I used multi-grips to bend them over a little tighter)
    Too many projects, so little time, even less money!
    Trailer Specialist - Repairs, Brakes, Customs.

  8. #8
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    Hi Jacksin,

    That's what I thought too, that's the only proper way (ON the ribs).

    About the wall cladding, I am aware that it must not touch the ground. To make the job real neat I ordered formgirt (as mentioned in my first post) giving me the formwork for the slab, sealing it from snails (there are plenty of them here) and keeping it off the ground.

    Just talked to the shed supplier and he's not going to exchange the wallsheets - this is "standard". He says the sheds are "normally" concreted after it is up, and explained how it'd done. Well a lot of messing around and flies in the face of recommendations by the manufacturers of the Colorbond.

  9. #9
    Trailer bloke Yonnee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacksin View Post
    You are correct Spruik.

    The brackets that you have are attached ON the ribs either fixed through to the C section or simply pop riveted to the rib itself.

    My Easybuilt (or Olympic) garage does not have an external bracket such as yours (only an internal one that clips into the bead) and is fixed by pop rivets through its back (up high) into the rib.
    Internal type gutter bracket have to sit on the ribs as there's a lip on the bracket that the gutter sits on. The external bracket doesn't require the gutter to sit hard against the back of the bracket.

    The wall cladding is not made to continue down way past the concrete floor as it will eventually rust out. All you are meant to do is lift the concrete floor barely 10mm above the bottom edge of the wall sheeting to keep out water
    Isn't that a contradiction?
    Any contact with concrete by the wallsheet will eventually cause corrosion. I painted the inside of the bottom 3" of the sheets in bitumen paint before the slab was poured.
    Too many projects, so little time, even less money!
    Trailer Specialist - Repairs, Brakes, Customs.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Jacksin's Avatar
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    Internal type gutter bracket have to sit on the ribs as there's a lip on the bracket that the gutter sits on. The external bracket doesn't require the gutter to sit hard against the back of the bracket.
    Obviously Yonnee you are confusing 'internal' brackets. The one you refer to (I think) has a short leg underneath the gutter sits on and an upper piece that clips over the back and another bit that clips into the bead, and are made for square section gutter.

    The 'internal' ones I have are for 125 D gutter, are smaller straighter that attach to the top of the fascia, or bottom purlin, and clip into the gutter bead ONLY. Their main function is to hold the gutter front straight, not support the gutter.

    The 'external' bracket Spruik has is a snug fit to the external size of the gutter and wouldnt fit if fixed in between the ribs.
    Jack

  11. #11
    Diamond Member Barry_White's Avatar
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    When I worked for the company selling, manufacturing and constructing sheds we used a bracket the same as the picture. It was made so as to go over the rib and fix to the fascia purlin and then the gutter bracket was fixed to the bracket. The bracket is made just high enough to clear the rib of the wall sheeting. Any sheet metal shop should be able make these for you. The brackets were folded up out of 1.2mm gal sheet.

    The wall sheeting is too thin to fix gutter brackets to. With the weight of the water in a full gutter will soon put you in trouble. I have seen it happen.

    The trouble is there are too many crap shed manufacturers around who build their sheds down to a price and not up to a standard and every one looking for a bargain become their target.

    Just as an added comment that wall cladding is only .35mm Base metal Thickness (I should know because I used to roll a similar profile when I was with BlueScope Lysaght) and the rib is only about 20mm wide with a slight curve on it so not really an ideal mounting for a gutter bracket.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Barry_White; 22nd Jan 2008 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Added Comment.
    Regards Bazza

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    The views expressed by the poster are general in nature and any advice should be taken in this vein. The poster accepts no responsibility if this advice is used. When undertaking any work personal professional advice should be sought from suitably qualified persons in the field of work being undertaken.


  12. #12
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    Barry,

    Thank you for your reply and suggestion.

    I cannot measure the thickness of the wall sheets, however the ribs are trapizoid shaped with the wide side 30mm (inside) and the narrow side 10mm (outside) and 10mm high. The product code is CC52F W98267 in case this is useful info.

    The width of the brackets is 35mm, so way overlaps the rib, which in itself doesn't matter of course. Looks like they are meant to be mounted by rivetting them onto the ribs (no instructions supplied). Going by the number of brackets supplied, they will be spaced 1m.

    As you point out, should the gutter be filled with water (blocked downpipe) each bracket will carry up to around 8kg. But the weight will be transferred to the thin wallsheet and should someone climb the roof and push the gutter, I can foresee that the wallsheet will rip or be distorted rather than the bracket bending (brackets are much stronger than the wall sheets).

    I will visit the local sheetmetal shop to have offset brackets made (10mm to clear the ribs, mounted on the purlin through the wall sheets) in turn on which I will mount the gutter brackets, similar to what you suggest in your image.

    Also will have to buy new wall sheets (and corner flashings), 50mm longer. If I follow the supplier's suggestion, a 50mm shiny purlin between the roof and the gutter will be visible, in contrast to the maroon red wall sheets and cottage green roof. Gutters are also cottage green. Alternatively paint the purlin green, but I am not sure how that looks.

    Either that or lift the slab by 50mm submerging the bolts and nuts securing the posts to the footers. That would require an extra 1.5 cubic metre of concrete or the addition of heeps of sand/gravel possibly undermining the stability of the slab (due to subsequent compression).

    Also, all purlins sag, need to get some profile (under the nuts) to correct that.

    Some people might say "it's only a shed"... but if it was only a shed to me I would buy something cheap made from zinc plated crappy looking stuff. And council would also not have approved.

    Not impressed generally, lessons learned for the next shed...

  13. #13
    Diamond Member Barry_White's Avatar
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    spruik

    I think your cheapest option would be to paint the fascia purlin the wall sheet colour because it is mostly going to be covered by the back of the gutter and the fact that the wall sheets are only 10mm high I don't think it would be an issue. You could also paint the gal made up brackets the same colour of the wall sheet. Then just order longer corner covers or flashings.

    I wouldn't lift the concrete slab up to cover the footing plates.

    I can pretty well assure you the wall sheets would be only 0.35mm and at the most which I doubt 0.42mm thick.

    The sheeting looks like Stramit's K Panel but it could be another manufacturers but it certainly isn't Lysaghts because theirs has three low profile ribs in the pan.
    Regards Bazza

    Skype Username: bazzabushy

    "Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards."
    -Vernon Sanders Law

    The views expressed by the poster are general in nature and any advice should be taken in this vein. The poster accepts no responsibility if this advice is used. When undertaking any work personal professional advice should be sought from suitably qualified persons in the field of work being undertaken.


  14. #14
    Member rileyp's Avatar
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    spruik
    Why not put the wall sheets exactly where you want it at the top and get a simple flashing made up approx 100mm wide or whatever distance you require to hide your slab in marroon from your local colorbond manufacturer and paint the inside of it with bitiumen or if there is clearance to the slab foamafill the gap and pop riviet the flashing to the bottom of wall sheet or you could even get a set put in the flashing so you dont have to seal every rib although this would put a 15mm gap back to your slab which could be foamafilled!

    I built my shed 10 years ago and poured the slab first to give me a 10 mm clearance all the way round from the slab edge to the cladding.
    I foamafilled the gap and I have no issues whatsoever with rust on my colourbond or insects or bugs and stuff getting in.

    Lots of shed installers tell you to pour the slab after the shed is built because its their prefered method as they don't have to box the slab which saves them time and money and their sheets do not allow for the sheet to run down past the side of the slab which is what you really need if you pour first.

    Another method you could use is to fix a zinc angle say 50 x 50 to the edge of your slab with tap its (nylon wall anchors that are hammered in) and place your wall sheet on top of it and then run a bead of silicon/mastic round the inside edge of the join.
    It just depends on whether you think the zinc will stand out or not.
    I personally dont think the zinc looks any worse than seeing the exposed side of the slab which you need to see if you don't want the bottom edges rusting out.
    The 50 /50 angle method also means you slab boxing dosent have to be that perfect either...
    If you paint the top purlin you will alway thinks its a sows ear patch up.

    The only other idea I have is to put in your reserve price at what your willing to loose and ebay your existing sheets and get new ones made.(Its a $5 bet if your auction fails)
    Obiviously the last idea is dependant on where you live and whether people will be willing to come and pick it up! I suppose you could offer free delivery within a certain distance to entice buyers.
    Its sound like you want to build your shed right and are having a bit of hard time at it.
    Dont give up! Do it once and do it right and everyone will admire your shed.
    It was nice when they bloke came to install the roller door on mine (the only task I didnt do myself as Ive heard to many stories of dud door installation.) and he offered me a job to put up sheds for him.
    cheers Rileyp

    P.S. Are your sheets indian red?
    I may be after some as I bought a Indian red shed today s/hand and some sheet are shot!

  15. #15
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    Hi rileyp,

    Still at it! I have little time for the shed, mainly because it's either too hot, too windy or too wet or waiting to go to Ballarat (50k) for new materials.

    Made up L-shaped angle iron pieces (covering the width of the perlins on the insice) which are fitted under the nuts securing the U-perlins which are now nice and stiff.

    The roller door is hanging, only assistance I needed is for a strong friend to help lift it on the supports. It really isn't such a big deal as I thought it might be. Drilled a hole through the centre axle on each side near the ends assisting in the adjustments. Poking a screwdriver throught he hole makes it a piece of cake.

    The frame is nicely square and bolted tight and starting the roof (hopefully) today (corrigated colorbond - cottage green) with 4 skylights (2 on each side). Shed does come with instructions for self erection but very basic indeed, no mention on skylights.

    Since the skylights are much lighter in weight and floppier compared to the sheets, it seems best to place them "on top" at both ends, and reverse the steel sheet at the other end (hope I am clear here). Means I will trim one side of the skylight to overlap the steel sheets properly (plenty of total width to spare over the length of the shed).

    Instructions say to start with "lip up" but information on other websites seem to contradict that. I've decided to start with "lip down" and the barge cappings are wide enough. I'll try to finish with "lip down" at the other end also.

    Spacing between sheets on the ridge will only be about 40mm making the sheets overhanging the sides by some 70mm which will be about half way over the gutter allowing for the stand-off brackets to be made (hopefully giving enough clearance to clean them once in a while).

    Due to the gutters I don't think the gap at the top will be an issue but if it is I'd rather buy new sheets (will let you know). Don't know about "indian red"... As for the bottom I started to install "formgirt" which will make it a neatly finished job although it turned out a lot of fiddling and expensive. Next shed will have "normal" formwork.

    Put down a thick layer of gray rock dust and have the plastic sheeting, reinforcement and barstools ready and waiting (for the formgirt to be completed). Only the bottom perlins are not fixed permanently yet so that the concrete can be screeded conveniently.

    Wife complains I am very slow but if I had it built by contractors my complaints would be never ending. So many things needed fixing, adjusting and correction that no contractor would worry about (not at the fixed price anyway) and the result would have been walls that don't align vertically, roof would have a bend in it, roller door would not hang straight (either that or would not look straight) - assuming all workmanship would otherwise be good. And from the inside also it would all look sh!thouse...

  16. #16
    Hwd Flooring Manufacturer glock40sw's Avatar
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    G'day.
    Have you actually checked the lenght of you wall sheets?

    My ranbiuld shed has 3.0m walls and the sheets are 3050mm long to allow for slab overhang.

    Mine has the internal gutter clips and they were riveted to the wall sheet ribs. I bought extra clips due to the weight of the water in the gutters when pizzen down rain.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor
    Grafton

  17. #17
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    Absolutely! Also physically held one up against the wall to see what it might look like. At the time queried it with the supplier who confirmed and said "that's how they come".

    My next shed (maybe starting next year) will be a five a six bay farm shed (on our country property). Intend the use the same supplier and manufacturer but will specify some details.

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