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Double Glazing instilation in a double brick wall

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  1. #1
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    Question Double Glazing instilation in a double brick wall

    Hello everyone

    I am living in a 70's construction double brick apartment, which is unfortunately fitted with some of the leakiest, flimsiest and poorly fitted aluminium frame windows in history. Pulling apart the architraves and having a closer look, it seems the window panes are virtually floating in the cavity with only a couple of think pieces of wood to hold them in place and bridge the cavity. No wonder they let in so much cold...... also they let in so much sound its as if they are permanently open

    I was hoping to either DIY install some high grade double glazing or at least have it done for me, but im not really sure about a few things. Ordinarily I wouldn't take the risk but I happened to find some DIY double glazing kits in bunnings warehouse from a company called "polar" (http://www.polarwindows.com.au/) and the instructions for installing them into studwork seems fairly straight forward. They don't however have any instructions for double-brick.

    How are these kind of windows fixed to double brick? The frames are certainly chunky enough to span the cavity but I can't really imagine you just hang sit them there, metal against brick and seal it up with a calk gun. Fixing it with pieces of wood would seem to defeat the purpose however.... so im not sure.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated, even if I'll never be able to do it i'd still like to understand how it works

  2. #2
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    We had some timber frame double glaze windows installed last year. They were screwed into place in the recess (on the outer of the cavity) and the gap was then filled with expanding foam. Later, the excess foam was cut away and silicone caulk and flashings completed the outside while new sills and reveals go on the inside. Tight as a drum. That expanding foam is great for this job, because it fills the gap and insulates as well.

    I know what you mean hearing the stuff from outside as if the window is open. I've filled a heap of gaps in some other windows using that white poly roll they sell at bunnings - it comes in several sizes, I just pushed it into the gaps and it seems to work great.

    woodbe.

  3. #3
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    hi,

    those windows are setup for typical brick veneer situation by having the timber reveal and it being located how it is,

    you need a flush fitting situation whereby the reveal/or window frame is all flush and can be fixed onto double brick and simply caulked

    ie. if the reveal was not there and the window simply fixed into bricks

    thanks

  4. #4
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    Thanks guys thats quite helpful actually

    From the sounds of it, the reveal is fairly important to the job and cannot be outright scrapped. Digging around in some other threads, I did notice somebody say that most good double glaziers will make reveals to suit, so I assume with any instillation I would just replace the reveal with something higher performing than the current hollow sounding pine or whatever it is.

    Also, I agree about the spray in foam, I have already bought a couple of cans of the densest stuff I could find, which should be good acoustically. Unfortunately there was a very limited amount I could do with it retrospectively without removing and refitting the frame, but any new glazing I put in will be sure to get a good all round dose of the stuff

    I guess now I just have to determine whether or not I am up to the job of fitting them myself, and whether its worth the cost savings.

  5. #5
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    With double brick, you need to handle the cavity carefully. You don't want outside air escaping into it, nor do you want it open to the inside of the house. So, window goes in and is sealed to the outside, then the reveals are installed to seal off the cavity from the inside.

    Of course, the reveal can be hard plaster, timber, marble etc depending on your tastes and budget. I've got a bunch of jarrah sills seasoning in WA, so ours are half done and the cavity gaps are all sealed up with expanding foam while we wait...

    woodbe

  6. #6
    1K Club Member autogenous's Avatar
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    Sometimes post fitted windows are trim fixed with angle. Do some research on trim fixing windows.

    There is a multitude of solutions.

    Different places fix the window in different positions of the cavity wall.

    In WA the window sits in the centre of the cavity.

    In the UK windows are fitted to the external cavity with masonry screws. This method make sit piece of piss to post fix windows without the need of angle. In the UK they are trying to catch the sun as much as possible on the glass. Even in new builds windows are post fitted in the UK.

    In many parts of Australia its the complete opposite in avoiding the sun.
    https://www.instagram.com/perth_bricklayer_wa

  7. #7
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    hi,

    back to a couple of things you mentioned, you live in apartment so:

    a. can you change window frame

    b. if double brick walls, where is the current frame located to outside, middle etc

    what i did was install a double glazed slider on the inside of 2-bedrooms, superb results

    so i have existing window frame then about a 90mm airspace then a double glazed unit and the results are incredible

    the double glazed "systems" we get in Australia are just a bit of fluff ,

    in East Euro countries like Poland, Hungary, Germany, Bulgaria etc they have for many many years frames whereby you have a single pane then a 60-100mm airspace then another pane either slider style or shutter

    in Melbourne the refurb of the Chevron nightclub done as above if you want to see some real life examples, look for units for sale and can check out

    thanks

  8. #8
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    a) Yes I can change the window frame, as long as I keep it low key and it doesn't stand out too much. I aim to keep it looking as much as possible like the original so that a lay-person would struggle to understand how it differs from its current form. From experience this is not a hard thing to do

    b) Ok I hope this makes sense: Internally there is a 150mm timber reveal, at the end of which an aluminium frame w railings is fixed and extends down about 50mm into the cavity. This frame houses the aluminium-framed glass pane that slides inside it.

    Externally the aluminium frame seems to have a 40mm aluminium reveal that is fixed to the top of a row of downward angled tiles, which solely bridge the gap between the window frame and the bottom row of external bricks. Some of these tiles are loose and pulling one out, you can literally see the frame floating between the brick skins.

    This is a quick detail I just drew up then. Note that I believe that both brick walls have the same opening height - ignore the difference, it was the only way I could make the illustration work with my limited understanding of the internal components.

    But yeah, I am well aware of the quality glazing available in europe. But at this stage I am going to go with anything quick and affordable that will actually block out my neighbours phone calls from penetrating my living room and function with any kind of MEASURABLE thermal efficiency!





  9. #9
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    hi,

    top sketch man,

    i also had an issue with heating/cooling system from neighbouring property

    imo the easiest, cheapest would be to instal a simple aluminium slider (single galzed) on the inside as close to the inside as possible, fixed to timber reveal

    re-caulk existing glass on inside, the bigger the gap the better

    thanks

  10. #10
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    hi,

    i looked at these guys and have seen the work they do which is quite nice now,

    http://www.stopnoise.com.au/why.htm

    was dealing with a few double glaze outfits through my job so went with a secondary dg unit

    thanks

  11. #11
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    Thanks for all the help guys

    After looking at my brick coursing very thoroughly, ive come to realise that its a very sloppy job and deviates significantly from the coursing charts. As such, anything other than a made-to-order unit is going to be inadequate

    Been looking at a place called everglaze, doing a little research they seem to sell pretty good quality 4/16/4 double glazed units in uPVC frames with decent double-locking liners which should do the trick. From the looks of things they do their own glazing and assembling using imported frame gear from a euro company called "Deceuninck".

    I'll have to compare their energy ratings doccumentation to some of the other players but so far, they look pretty decent.

    As for seconday glazing....... I think I like my reveal space too much for that
    Besides I think it will interfere with my elaborate (don't ask) roller-blind mounted sarking system that I use in summer to make up for the excessively short northern eaves I have. Even double glazing with all the low-e coatings in the world won't keep out direct northern sunlight on a summers day I am afraid...

  12. #12
    wolfman
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    hi hayaku

    just been reading your post and i hope i'm not too late to help .

    the profile you are looking at deceuninck is a very good pvcu profile and yes the glazing of 4 + 16 + 4mm is perfect (any further apart and you may get distorted/blurring vision)

    which ever pvc supplier you eventually decide to go with , they should be able to supply you with a 50mm pvc profile , this you will need to knock into your cavity wall which in turn will allow you to fix your new double glazed frame too. (the frame needs to sit over the cavity wall ) .

    once done replace your reveal / window cill board and then use trims , 40/50mm (supplied by window company with frames) these trims are used to bead up around the window both inside and out to give you a neat finish .

    the only tricky part to fitting the window , is placing the doudle sealed unit into the frame and then toe and healing to make sure that the weight of the double sealed unit is balance out properly (you will require an handfull of glazing packers) . this ensures that the window open and shuts easily .

    hope this helps and good luck ....

  13. #13
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    Thanks a lot kevin, thats very useful to know. Most of the quotes ive got so far have instillation + removal set at around $1500-2200 all up, or $300-400 per window. So yeah, doing it myself is certainly something I will look into as the savings are significant.

    You say that the frame itself rests over the cavity, with a 50mm PVC spacer knocked into the cavity below to seal/support the frame in? I found this section on one of the pdf's of the product, it seems to show "cavity block at 800mm centres" but only for the top, between the steel lintel angles. http://lookpic.com/i/461/8keYoZbe.png

    It doesn't specify so, but I assume the frame is fixed into these with a large screw at each block? There appears to be no specific fixing or seal method for the bottom, other than a "EPDM tension flap" so I assume a good dose of expanding foam will be required, ditto between the cavity blocks.

    There seem to be three main companies doing this in my area, "PVC Australia", "Everglaze" and one called "Eurotech". PVC and Everglaze both use Deceuninck profiles, specifically a product named "Zendow". Eurotech uses profiles from a German company named "REHAU" and uses 20mm cavities, but looks like a very solid product too. Good to hear that the Deceuninck profiles are reputable, one drawback of the Everglaze units is that they are only guaranteed for 7 years - Eurotech guarantees for 10 years which I believe is the industry standard. So far, PVC Australia have not been returning my emails

  14. #14
    wolfman
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    HI Hayaku - glad ive been of help .....

    whilst i stated that deceuninck was a very good profile , Rehau is top quality ,( in my view you cant buy better upvc )

    in reference to the that cavity block above window profile , i cant see why you shouldn,t be able to use this same product down the sides and bottom of cavity .

    fixing wise you will probably require (depending on size of window) m8 x 100mm drill point self tapping screws (frames will be aluminium reinforced) . two fings in each side and one towards centre of window in top and bottom .

    are you getting the internal pulldown flyscreens with these windows ???


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