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Pivot entrance door?

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  1. #1
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    Default Pivot entrance door?

    Currently self building an extension to the house that includes a new entrance hall and front door.
    The plans include a 1200mm wide timber and glazed pivot entrance door with 450mm side lights ie 2100mm total width.
    In process of trying to obtain quotes to supply door frame with pivot hinge plus door - only found Corinthian and Hume so far for delivery to Adelaide. Not got any detailed price yet but quick chat to special orders team in Bunnings suggests no change likely from $4k to supply only.
    Anything I should know or consider about pivot doors in general or recommendations for other suppliers?
    I do wish a fairly wide door (daughter is in wheelchair) but willing to consider other options.....
    cheers, Paul

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    Check for other suppliers that are not the one you listed and don't even try Doors Minus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pauljygrant View Post
    I do wish a fairly wide door (daughter is in wheelchair) but willing to consider other options.....
    Considering the pivot point, will the opening actually be wider than a standard doorway?

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    Thanks for the replies - already read warnings about a national door chain so wasn’t going there although my wife did visit them a few months ago - they didn’t recommend a pivot hinge but offered a pivot size door with regular style hinges for about $3k fitted.
    I think the opening of the door reduces to around 1,000mm with the pivot hinge so still better than our current 820 door.
    Anyone know of any other Adelaide manufacturer of doors / frames, pivot or otherwise?

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    Ok, yeah, 1000mm is good.

    I was thinking 900, still better than 820, but not for the cost difference

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    Would you consider french doors?

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    Default Pivot entrance door?

    As a baseline get a quote for a custom made door from a proper joinery mob. Also although in Sydney, look at woodworkers. Com.au (IIRC) as they have a lot of their prices online so you can get a feel for it (as well as what the big dials affecting cost are).

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    I'm not 100% sold on the pivot hinges.

    I had 4 ball bearing hinges on my 1200x2340 door and it was as smooth as silk. $50 for hinges vs $1000 for pivot.

    Plus pivot hinges are more dangerous with littlw kids.

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    Yes, I've heard kids like to explore the small opening...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauljygrant View Post
    with 450mm side lights
    Make sure you get the laminated security glass for the side lights

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowMick View Post
    Would you consider french doors?
    I was warned that they are difficult to get a good seal on. Open to all suggestions....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocDog View Post
    As a baseline get a quote for a custom made door from a proper joinery mob. Also although in Sydney, look at woodworkers. Com.au (IIRC) as they have a lot of their prices online so you can get a feel for it (as well as what the big dials affecting cost are).

    ====
    The Woodworkers – QLD’s largest timber doors & windows manufacturer
    Thanks for the link - some amazing ideas for both exterior and interior doors.
    their online prices look dearer than Hume but for proper wooden doors rather than composite veneer. If only they had a showroom in SA.

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    Hume is junk compared to that. it must be dearer. Don't buy junk, a good solid wood with good quality hinges will last a life long.
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    I personally wouldn't bother with pivot, unless you buy a good quality one, the seals are prone to failure because they drag along the jamb's when the door is opened or closed.

    I have done a lot of 1200 doors, and use 4 x good quality 100 x 75 x 2.5 ball bearing hinges, these need to be fixed into a decent jamb.
    Off the shelf jambs have around 20mm of timber to screw in and are junk, they won't hold a 1200 door with 4 hinges over the long term, probably even 6 hinges would pull out.

    I custom make my own jambs from 140x42 either dressed TP or HW, I have never done a 1200 with a sidelight next to it, I have done 2 x 820 with 700 side lights either side and had no issues, jamb's were made from solid Merbau

    When doing 1200 I fix the 42mm thick jamb solidly into the brick or timber frame, and have never had one move or fail or a door fall off or even move slightly so it jambs (have seen this a fair few times from bad installs)
    The pivot mechanism puts the weight onto the floor so it negates having a solid frame and you lose opening width, this is why I do regular hinges as you get around 1170 opening.

    The beauty of making your own frames, is you can use any off the shelf 1200 door, and the whole thing installed will cost a hell of a lot less than 4K for supply only.

    I would consider putting the door next to the frame and put a 900 sidelight on one side, although if you use HW as a jamb and it's built correctly you should be able to put sidelight on both side, I would consider to split the sidelight into two sections with a horizontal support somewhere in the sidelight, this way the jamb should not be able to twist.

    Again I reiterate it needs to be built by a competent carpenter who has experience with these big doors, also note jamb's need a HW threshold and flashing applied before install.

    And definitely don't go near door's Negative, they are the biggest sharks, and will rip you off with an inferior end product and rotten after sales service.

    Also note: It is a AS requirement that the sidelight glass is either laminated or safety glass, I always go with Laminated it's much stronger and safer, and can be cut and delivered in under 24 hours, safety glass has to be heat treated and takes longer to be delivered.

    Some shown below I have done from HW and TP.



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1193.jpg   img_1255.jpg  
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    I personally wouldn't bother with pivot, unless you buy a good quality one, the seals are prone to failure because they drag along the jamb's when the door is opened or closed.
    Why do pivot doors need seals vs standard doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Off the shelf jambs have around 20mm of timber to screw in and are junk, they won't hold a 1200 door with 4 hinges over the long term, probably even 6 hinges would pull out.
    Is this the reason for the pivot vs standard hinges on a large heavy door? Seems to me the pivot is effective as the door weight is taken by the bottom pin and the top holds it in position. Given how it's fixed, they can't be pulled out.

    I don't have one, nor need one but just thinking of the mechanics. In our last place, we had a frameless shower screen put in with swing door. It had a pivot in the base and a simple hinge at the top to hold it upright. Smoothest action frameless glass door I have ever used.

    Rob

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    Nice solid jamb. Agreed that Bunnings supplied jambs are ok for standard hollow doors but not for anything solid.
    Old hand made steel gates, had no hinge but a pivot point at one end and a strap at the top to hold it in place, with the pin going through what appeared to be a hinge but was only holding the pin in position. All the weight support and the pivoting was done in the blind hole where the pin would bottom out.

    I never looked closely at a front door swinging on a pin. If the pin is off the dege, does the jam have a rebate inside on the pin side or does it rely only on seals?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboboz View Post
    Why do pivot doors need seals vs standard doors?



    Is this the reason for the pivot vs standard hinges on a large heavy door? Seems to me the pivot is effective as the door weight is taken by the bottom pin and the top holds it in position. Given how it's fixed, they can't be pulled out.

    I don't have one, nor need one but just thinking of the mechanics. In our last place, we had a frameless shower screen put in with swing door. It had a pivot in the base and a simple hinge at the top to hold it upright. Smoothest action frameless glass door I have ever used.

    Rob
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigboboz View Post
    Why do pivot doors need seals vs standard doors?



    Is this the reason for the pivot vs standard hinges on a large heavy door? Seems to me the pivot is effective as the door weight is taken by the bottom pin and the top holds it in position. Given how it's fixed, they can't be pulled out.

    I don't have one, nor need one but just thinking of the mechanics. In our last place, we had a frameless shower screen put in with swing door. It had a pivot in the base and a simple hinge at the top to hold it upright. Smoothest action frameless glass door I have ever used.

    pivot_door.jpg

    Rob
    Pivot doors need seals either on the door or on the jamb because they pivot, you can't have a rebate or timber stop on the head of the frame as a conventional door has because the door pivots on a point around 150mm in from the edge se pic below, the other problem with pivot is you lose that amount off the opening that the pivot mechanism takes up.

    This means when you open the door 150mm of the door goes outwards while the remainder goes inwards, so to effectively seal a pivot door like a conventional door there needs to be a seal on the top of the door or jamb to keep vermin and air entering, I have seen a few pivot doors where this seal has worn out within 4-5 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    This means when you open the door 150mm of the door goes outwards while the remainder goes inwards
    So there's no...not sure what the correct word is...opposite recess for the section that swings the opposite way? When I say recess, I'm referring to the cut away section that a door closes into a normal door jamb. In any event directly at the hinge would still need a seal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Old hand made steel gates, had no hinge but a pivot point at one end and a strap at the top to hold it in place, with the pin going through what appeared to be a hinge but was only holding the pin in position. All the weight support and the pivoting was done in the blind hole where the pin would bottom out.
    My place still has one of these. Still going after 130 years. Wouldn't call it a smooth swinging action though

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    I never looked closely at a front door swinging on a pin. If the pin is off the dege, does the jam have a rebate inside on the pin side or does it rely only on seals?
    Offset like a fridge door? Yeah, that should remove the reverse moving part of the swing action. Like a normal hinge but it's top and bottom fixed...

  20. #20
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    Not a fan of pivots and I reckon they are dangerous with kids around. The pivot side acts like a guillotine.

    Having said that we are about to install a couple of external pivots, 2m wide, 3250 tall with the pivot 400 in. An accident waiting to happen in my opinion.

    Tools

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    Default Pivot entrance door?

    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    I personally wouldn't bother with pivot, unless you buy a good quality one, the seals are prone to failure because they drag along the jamb's when the door is opened or closed.

    I have done a lot of 1200 doors, and use 4 x good quality 100 x 75 x 2.5 ball bearing hinges, these need to be fixed into a decent jamb.
    Off the shelf jambs have around 20mm of timber to screw in and are junk, they won't hold a 1200 door with 4 hinges over the long term, probably even 6 hinges would pull out.

    I custom make my own jambs from 140x42 either dressed TP or HW, I have never done a 1200 with a sidelight next to it, I have done 2 x 820 with 700 side lights either side and had no issues, jamb's were made from solid Merbau

    When doing 1200 I fix the 42mm thick jamb solidly into the brick or timber frame, and have never had one move or fail or a door fall off or even move slightly so it jambs (have seen this a fair few times from bad installs)
    The pivot mechanism puts the weight onto the floor so it negates having a solid frame and you lose opening width, this is why I do regular hinges as you get around 1170 opening.

    The beauty of making your own frames, is you can use any off the shelf 1200 door, and the whole thing installed will cost a hell of a lot less than 4K for supply only.

    I would consider putting the door next to the frame and put a 900 sidelight on one side, although if you use HW as a jamb and it's built correctly you should be able to put sidelight on both side, I would consider to split the sidelight into two sections with a horizontal support somewhere in the sidelight, this way the jamb should not be able to twist.

    Again I reiterate it needs to be built by a competent carpenter who has experience with these big doors, also note jamb's need a HW threshold and flashing applied before install.

    And definitely don't go near door's Negative, they are the biggest sharks, and will rip you off with an inferior end product and rotten after sales service.

    Also note: It is a AS requirement that the sidelight glass is either laminated or safety glass, I always go with Laminated it's much stronger and safer, and can be cut and delivered in under 24 hours, safety glass has to be heat treated and takes longer to be delivered.

    Some shown below I have done from HW and TP.



    My carpenter used 20mm HW jamb in my old house with a 2340x1200 door. The 4x hinges were screwed using 100mm screws so it also bit into the stud behind it.

    Sold the house so not sure how it was long term.

    Looking to build again, this time with a even larger door- 2700x1200.

    I did a quick search online and couldn't find a 140x42 HW timber. I did find 140x35 so may use that instead in conjunction with a HW stud behind the jamb (again with 100mm screws).

    Thanks for the tip.

    I'd prefer to use HW over treated pine as it's harder wearing.

    ====

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    Dressed 140x42 HW (usually Merbau or Blackbutt) is sold at timber merchants, and is commonly used for decking handrails, you should be able to source it down there.
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    Thanks, I will check it out.

    What do you think of this Meranti jamb that has already been rebated? It looks to be a minimum of 25mm thick and 35mm at the stop.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Door-Jam...-/251947753281

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1 View Post
    Thanks, I will check it out.

    What do you think of this Meranti jamb that has already been rebated? It looks to be a minimum of 25mm thick and 35mm at the stop.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Door-Jam...-/251947753281

    Same as all other jambs, they are ok for hollow doors or semi heavy solid doors up to 820mm, nothing bigger.
    If you want strength uset 140x42 or close to it.
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    Ok, you've sold me on the thicker stuff.

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    All, thanks for all the feedback, info and suggestions. I’ve considered my options and taking into account the cost of pivot doors, weight, and availability here in Adelaide, I’m now thinking that I’ll make my own door jamb using 140*42 meranti timber, and install a 1020 door instead.
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-Lite-F...item8042549589
    On either side, to fit a fixed bi-fold style door
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Lite-C...item827d524d91
    Would 140*42 be ok to use for the sill, or should I purchase a sill with a profile, eg

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Front-Do...item82a3a2d41a

    Cant find doors of this style and size locally, at least at these prices. Hopefully they are of acceptable quality.

    Any my further thoughts or suggestions on the direction I’m thinking of taking???

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    I was at the panel beaters the other day, waiting for my car to be ready and they had a pivot door as the public entrance, with an auto closer. A little boy maybe 4 years old almost got stuck in the small opening. He said "That's dangerous Mum!".

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauljygrant View Post
    All, thanks for all the feedback, info and suggestions. I’ve considered my options and taking into account the cost of pivot doors, weight, and availability here in Adelaide, I’m now thinking that I’ll make my own door jamb using 140*42 meranti timber, and install a 1020 door instead.
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-Lite-F...item8042549589
    On either side, to fit a fixed bi-fold style door
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Lite-C...item827d524d91
    Would 140*42 be ok to use for the sill, or should I purchase a sill with a profile, eg

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Front-Do...item82a3a2d41a

    Cant find doors of this style and size locally, at least at these prices. Hopefully they are of acceptable quality.

    Any my further thoughts or suggestions on the direction I’m thinking of taking???

    The sill needs to made from Hardwood and needs to be profiled like the one shown in the link,
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    Quote Originally Posted by pauljygrant View Post
    All, thanks for all the feedback, info and suggestions. Ive considered my options and taking into account the cost of pivot doors, weight, and availability here in Adelaide, Im now thinking that Ill make my own door jamb using 140*42 meranti timber, and install a 1020 door instead.
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-Lite-F...item8042549589
    On either side, to fit a fixed bi-fold style door
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Lite-C...item827d524d91
    Would 140*42 be ok to use for the sill, or should I purchase a sill with a profile, eg

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Front-Do...item82a3a2d41a

    Cant find doors of this style and size locally, at least at these prices. Hopefully they are of acceptable quality.

    Any my further thoughts or suggestions on the direction Im thinking of taking???
    Just a quick update - 1020 6 lite door and 2* 450 side light doors ordered from the eBay / Melbourne supplier - should be here early next week. Will then buy 140*42 meranti and start making my door frame.
    Thinking of 4* 100mm Lane Professional Series SS loose pin hinges; roller mortice lock, and pull handles.
    No doubt once I start, Ill have other questions!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauljygrant View Post
    Just a quick update - 1020 6 lite door and 2* 450 side light doors ordered from the eBay / Melbourne supplier - should be here early next week. Will then buy 140*42 meranti and start making my door frame.
    Thinking of 4* 100mm Lane Professional Series SS loose pin hinges; roller mortice lock, and pull handles.
    No doubt once I start, I’ll have other questions!
    Be careful if you use the mirror version they have a fault in them which the brushed ones don't have, it's when they re stamped, their die is buggered.

    plated.jpg


    brushed.jpg
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    Default Pivot entrance door?

    Get some ball bearing hinges.



    ====

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1 View Post
    Get some ball bearing hinges.



    ====
    Happy to accept the recommendation to fit ball bearing hinges. Found Lockwood hinges from www.Keelerhardware.com.au - do you think these are any good?
    https://www.keelerhardware.com.au/co...ing-butt-hinge
    What size would be best? The door is 1020*2040*40 and the frame will be constructed out of 140*42 meranti.
    Ie should I use 100*75*2.5 or is there any benefit to use the larger 100*100*2.5?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails de11edaa-9a53-4c31-8edd-93be8f6f58af.jpg  

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    Default Pivot entrance door?

    100*75*2.5 is perfect. Exactly what I'd use

    100*100*2.5 is too big unless you have 50mm thick doors.

    ====

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    Default Pivot entrance door?

    Oops

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    I can see a pencil mark there !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Be careful if you use the mirror version they have a fault in them which the brushed ones don't have, it's when they re stamped, their die is buggered.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    I can see a pencil mark there !!!

    ..
    I know, I threw that jamb out because of that pencil mark, just can't find good installers nowadays .
    Mieux vaut prvenir que gurir

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    Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    I know, I threw that jamb out because of that pencil mark, just can't find good installers nowadays .
    A good installer would have had the hinge orientated the right way on the jamb too.
    inter

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    Quote Originally Posted by intertd6 View Post
    A good installer would have had the hinge orientated the right way on the jamb too.
    inter

    Fairly obvious you haven't hung many doors, better get yourself some new glasses, because that's the door, I guess your comment says it all
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    Quote Originally Posted by METRIX View Post
    Fairly obvious you haven't hung many doors, better get yourself some new glasses, because that's the door, I guess your comment says it all
    You said it was the jamb & from the picture it's hard to tell what it is so we only have what you have described it as to go off. For anyone else hinges have a door leaf & jamb leaf, distinguished by the pin knuckles on each leaf, for those hinges 3 knuckles for the jamb leaf & two for the door leaf
    Ive been a carpenter for 40 years so I have forgotten how many doors I have hung
    inter

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    418c430b-1210-408c-8fd4-ef0985ccde57.jpg

    01ad0d1a-f823-4ced-9e8c-aaef6384f390.jpg

    After all the advice, I have started to build my own door jamb - hopefully I’ll have time at the weekend to complete the installation.....currently trying to apply as many coats of varnish as possible.

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    6c86ac07-f2a0-43d3-9129-9d8b1c37bfde.jpge398df88-10e2-4073-ade5-012104ad317a.jpg

    Not sure why the photos are upside down but happy with this weekends progress.

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    Looks good!

    (If you are using a phone for photos, have the shutter button on the right hand side)

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3nov8or View Post
    Looks good!

    (If you are using a phone for photos, have the shutter button on the right hand side)
    Ah, the curse of being left handed!

  45. #45
    Senior Member
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    Nov 2010
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    Melbourne
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    Nice work Paul. one to be proud of.

  46. #46
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    Goldcoast
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    Anyone had any issues with their pivot door making a loud pop when open fully? And then as I close it again. Its a Hume door.

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