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How to fix 3rd foot to mirror stand - adhesive?

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  1. #1
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    Smile How to fix 3rd foot to mirror stand - adhesive?

    Hi,

    We have a 3 legged mirror on a stand, the 3rd leg is made of wood and has come loose from the two metal screw fittings. Can someone suggest a way to reaffix it. The mirror, see pictures, is quite heavy.

    I'm thinking some kind of adhesive, pour it in the holes and push onto the two metal screw fittings.

    Thanks for reading this,
    David


    img_5946.jpgimg_6194.jpgimg_6193.jpg

  2. #2
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    I presume that the jagged metal objects in the middle picture have "pulled out" and the timber as shown in the first picture is too worn (or split) to hold them if they are pushed back in.

    The following involves the application of a two part epoxy resin. (BUT do not even consider using "Araldite")
    From a good hardware store, obtain a small container of Epoxy Resin and a small quantity of the appropriate hardener/catalyst. (Approximate cost $10.00 and the "Diggers" brand seems most readily obtainable.)
    Assuming the jagged metal objects are fixings for metal threaded screws and the screws and fixings can be did-assembled, proceed as follows.
    Remove the fixings and associated screws.
    Mix a small quantity of the resin with a few drops of the hardener. (I find that the bottom of an inverted small empty can is ideal for this purpose.)
    Use a small screwdriver dipped into the can to drop a few drops at a time onto the mixing surface. When you have enough of the liquid, add a few drops of the hardener and mix thoroughly.
    (DO NOT place the wet screwdriver back into the can.)
    Use the screwdriver to line the sides of the holes with the resin, insert the fixings (without the screws) while the resin is still wet and wipe off any excess resin. Clamping the timber between two flat pieces of wood would also seem to be a good idea, since the existing timber appears to be split.
    Make sure to place some "Cling Wrap" or similar plastic between the existing timber and any clamping wood - to ensure that the timber does not stick to the clamping wood.
    Leave the remaining epoxy resin to set on the mixing surface and, when it is thoroughly hard (about 30 - 60 minutes) you can remove the clamp and reassemble.

    In the unlikely event that the fixings and screws cannot be dis-assembled, either proceed as above but without dis-assembly, or line the holes with resin, clamp the timber, let the resin set and then force the parts together – as would have been done originally!

  3. #3
    1K Club Member Random Username's Avatar
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    Diggers brand resin is not epoxy resin, it's polyester resin, which is significantly weaker, and has poorer adhesion to timber than a two part epoxy adhesive. (with 'significantly' meaning "They make surfboards and bog up car dings with polyester; they build yachts and planes with epoxy.")

    For a small repair, Araldite is fine, even if horribly overpriced. An unthickened marine epoxy would be better, but you'd end up with a half litre or so left over after the job (which could be quite ok, as it keeps for 10-20-30+ years)

    Personally, I don't like the small shoulder of wood left in that first pic where it has cracked. I'd want to add maybe a small piece of 3-6mm ply over the top of that area to reinforce it. Sand both the support and one face of the ply with 80 grit to promote adhesion and epoxy them together. (dont clamp too hard - epoxy is structural across gaps so the aim is just to hold it in place while the epoxy cures, not 'squeeze all the excess out')

    Guide to using epoxy:
    WEST SYSTEM | Use Guides - Bonding Hardware
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  4. #4
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    Random Username]Diggers brand resin is not epoxy resin, it's polyester resin, which is significantly weaker, and has poorer adhesion to timber than a two part epoxy adhesive. (with 'significantly' meaning "They make surfboards and bog up car dings with polyester; they build yachts and planes with epoxy.")

    For a small repair, Araldite is fine, even if horribly overpriced. An unthickened marine epoxy would be better, but you'd end up with a half litre or so left over after the job (which could be quite ok, as it keeps for 10-20-30+ years)

    ------------------

    Random,

    I bow to your superior knowledge concerning polyester resin versus epoxy resin AND
    my point about Araldite was that it IS horribly overpriced - for the quantity you get - as you have stated.

    (Also, I don't think that building a yacht or a plane is actually on the enquirers agenda!)

    While the epoxy may indeed be superior to the polyester, I have never had problems with using the "Diggers" polyester in similar situations. It has always made a repair which was stronger than the original. While it may not "adhere" as well to a timber surface, in this situation it should "adhere" simply by filling the rough surface of both the timber, the fittings and by filling the voids between them, as well as flowing into and filling the interstices of the timber.

    You have stated "An unthickened marine epoxy would be better, but you'd end up with a half litre or so left over after the job (which could be quite ok, as it keeps for 10-20-30+ years)"

    I note that a brand other than that which you have mentioned has available an Epoxy 150ml Sample Kit at $14 and a 750ml Kit at $35.90 via the WWW (no doubt plus postage).

    Following these posts, the enquirer (davidbee) may now be left with a choice of products to consider and the prices concerned. Depending on what he may see as his future needs he could choose Araldite ($?), Diggers ($10), Epoxy Kit ($14+), Epoxy 780ml ($35.90+) or some other.

    However, I think that we may be in agreement on the method of making this repair if not on the exact material to be used. Davidbee, I hope that all this is of help to you.


    In addition, while I have a 250g tin of the polyester resin - half used after about three years of being used to repair many items - I will investigate your recommendation of using "An unthickened marine epoxy". Thank you for the information.

    Further, I have found "Selleys KNEAD it" Epoxy Putty (in its various guises) to be quite handy in many situations which are similar, except that filling a significant void is also concerned.

  5. #5
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    Thanks very much FrodoOne and Random, couldn't ask for a better response.

    After playing with it again I noticed that it is VERY loose, much looser than I thought. So I need to have something that will fill as well as adhere.

    I think I'll go with the "small piece of 3-6mm ply over the top of that area to reinforce it" with Araldite first, then let it set as suggested by Random. This panel will be behind/underneath and won't show.
    Then I'll buy an epoxy resin, fill the holes with it and push the wooden leg onto the 2 screws.

    For the resin, how about Plasti-Bond Heavy Duty* which I've used (a long time ago) and has the advantage of being available in Bunnings? The West System page refers to adhesives in the US.

    Cheers,

    David

    *Plasti-Bond® Heavy Duty | Selleys Australia


  6. #6
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    Araldite Super Strength, $10.64 for 24ml at bunnies, which is probably just enough to fix the mirror. If the op never ever wants to fix anything else, ever, that's what I'd recommend.

    If the op wants to join the fix-things brigade, I'd recommend splashing out on some Epox-E-Glue from Drive Marine ($25 + post for 200 grams) instead.

    While a mirror may not have quite the structural needs of a car or plane, the manufacturer's fixing approach (threaded inserts in end grain) has already failed in service by what appears to be a combination of end grain pull out (which is a typical shortcoming of screws in end grain) and forces imposed by the weight of the mirror (the cracking to the face of the support), so I'd hazard a guess that the stand needs as much help as it can get - which is why I'd use a bit of extra material as well as the best glue available - to reduce the chance of future failures.

    I also really don't like working with the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide catalyst for polyester, as.

    1)The stuff is really fugitive, and leaks out of containers very easily, and
    2) It only takes about 15 seconds worth of eye contact with MEKP to hit the 'not kidding, high risk of permanent blindness' zone, unlike epoxy's 'may cause irritation on eye contact'.
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  7. #7
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    Plasti-Bond is a polyester resin filled with talc to thicken it. So it's about as strong as talc.

    Same deal with Builder's Bog, Turbo Bog, Car Bog and all the other readily available bogs. The primary quality that those bogs are trying to achieve is the ability to be sanded to a feather edge to blend the repair in. Supa-Cheap Auto does sell one that is blended with stainless steel microspheres, which is harder than the hinges of hell to sand out, but the message is that they are all polyester based.

    So cross 'em off yer list.

    As far as I'm aware there are no hardware chains in Australia that stock any epoxy other than Araldite (and yum-cha araldite-alikes). Some chemset anchors may be epoxy based, but that stuff's for gluing rebar into holes in concrete.

    Any decent ships chandler (or even Carba-Tec) will stock suitable epoxy such as West, or you can get Bote Cote epoxy via mail from Drive Marine. (I cite West's site a lot because there's a huge stack of info on their site, as well as nice pictures of five-inch thick, foot square blocks of wood that have cracked in half when trying to pull a glued in fastener out of them...they seem to like torture testing their glue).

    With a marine epoxy, you can use it as is, as well as thickening it to provide other properties. Read the West site.

    Talc, flour, sawdust as thickener? Feathers out easily. Aluminium powder as thickener? Yeah, that'll let you mount a ships mast. Graphite? Self lubricating surface. Sand? Great for masonry hole repairs. Aluminium powder and iron oxide in equal parts by weight? A novel way of warming an engine block!

    Tips for epoxy n00bs:

    "About right" is not good enough as a measurement standard - measuring cups or sensitive scales for mixing are the order of the day.
    Don't mix more than about a cupful at a time, otherwise it can exotherm, and a cup of really hot epoxy is not fun.
    Vinegar cleans it off things (hands included) very quickly when still soft. Once it's set, though, and the closest you get to non-mechanical removal involves...well...imagine a pressure washer. Squirting sulphuric acid, not water. Oh, and the acid's boiling.
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  8. #8
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    Default All good!

    Thanks Random and FrodoOne, I thought I'd let you know how it went.

    I took the stand off the back of the mirror (it was attached with 8 screws) bought some 5-minute Araldite (only $12 for more than enough) mixed it and poured it into the holes, left it for a day and reattached the stand to the mirror. It's been standing now for over 2 weeks and looks good. See the attached photos.

    Thanks again for your help.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_6275.jpg   img_6274.jpg  

  9. #9
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    ...now just wait for someone to trip over one of those cords and knock it over...
    DIY electrical house wiring details suitable for Australia - http://goo.gl/9d33T (PDF file)

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbee View Post
    Thanks Random and FrodoOne, I thought I'd let you know how it went.
    David,

    I appreciate your response and information on the success of your repair.

    For my part, I thank Random for appraising me of the difference between Polyester Resins and Epoxy Resins.
    I have acted on his advice and obtained the smallest quantity of Bote Cote epoxy possible. Compared to Araldite, it is not a minute quantity, should last me for years and I have recently used to good advantage.
    (I still think that Araldite is ridiculously expensive!)

    From what you have written, I gather that you did not attempt to re-fix the metal inserts, but simply "Filled" the holes and then used wood screws.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodoOne View Post
    I have acted on his advice and obtained the smallest quantity of Bote Cote epoxy possible.
    Is it more of a coating, or a glue like Araldite

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    I know I'm coming in late to the thread and the repair has been done but i find that West Systems epoxy form any of the local boat /yachting supplies very reasonable in cost and I am amazed at how much I go through when I have it. I am half way through a liter of resin already and it's only been a year.
    Also note that Stainless Steel powder is for making REALLY strong joins and I am going though quite a bit of Aluminium powder, For woodwork I have been saving the MDF dust
    "A big boy did it and ran away"

    Legal disclaimer denying responsibility to be inserted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by justonething View Post
    Is it more of a coating, or a glue like Araldite
    It is a Resin - which sets (solid).

    If it coats two surfaces - with a minimal amount between them - it is an adhesive.
    If it is on top of something, it is a coating.
    If it occupies a void, with or without containing another "bulking up" powder product, it is a filler.

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